Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn

david starling

Well-known member
Saturn is the "bearer of bad tidings". A modern analogy would be Saturn as the "check-engine" light on the vehicle. The warning light didn't cause the problem, but it lets you know that if you don't get it repaired, your vehicle is headed for a breakdown with possibly disastrous consequences. Ignoring what Saturn is telling you is like putting tape over the light, and acting like everything is fine. No sense "hating the messenger"; but, sooner or later, when the "grim reaper" tells you that your "time is almost up", best to put your affairs in order (while you still can).
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I have to admit that I, myself, find it difficult to avoid blaming Saturn as the cause of misfortune, rather than correctly dreading the correlations that are synchronized to its placements and transits.
 

clip11

Well-known member
clip, do you mind saying how old you are?

I ask because you write like someone without a lot of life experience.

You seem to inhabit a fantasy world, where you are entitled to get what you want when you want it. Very unrealistic. Life does not owe you immediate gratification.

None of us has entitlements in this world. We may have been born to a life of privilege but that doesn't mean we get to keep it.

No, you are not owed good health. If you are healthy, count your blessings.

You are not entitled to a ripe old age.

Children living with illness and poverty know full well that life isn't fair. They wish it were otherwise, but blaming Saturn is totally irrelevant to their needs. Maybe you'd like to go to medical school and become a pediatrician, or become an aid worker in famine-stricken areas. That would be more helpful than thinking life owes you a harem of young women (who presumably can make up their own minds about whether they would want to do that with you.)

Have you ever priced out what it costs an 80-year old to live in a decent nursing home (today usually called "assisted living.") Unless you live in a country where nursing homes are government-subsidized, they are extremely expensive.

Wealthy seniors have the option of donating generously to hospitals for sick children and overseas famine relief. They may plan to leave their children with an inheritance.

When you get too old to work, you better hope you can support yourself with a pension, savings, or kids who care about you.

You seem very prejudiced against the elderly.

Think about your values. What are they? Are they entirely materialistic and hedonistic, or do you hope to be of benefit to other people.

But you go right ahead and think of Saturn as the devil. See how well that works for you.
How am I "prejudiced against the elderly"? I'm just pointing out the reality that it's better to be rich at 30 than at 80, at least that would be the opinion of most sane people.

People like to say "life doesn't owe you x" but let's be serious, people don't really operate like that. Next time a Governor or President is running for reelection and their voting base is complaining about the lack of good paying, middle class job opportunities, I want to hear that candidate tell them "life doesn't owe you middle class jobs. Go work at McDonald's for minimum wage and if you can't make it, tough ****".

All my life is is a shitty *** job and hard work and more hard work that gets me absolutely nowhere. So yes I hate my life and sometimes wish i was never born. I've done everything right in life but have nothing to show for it. But there are sex traffickers who do all sorts of vile things and they are handsomely rewarded with everything I would love to have. But then people gaslight you by talking about how they "aren't really happy". Really?
 

clip11

Well-known member
That's also why so many others call Saturn the same thing. Heck, in tarot the Devil card is Saturn.

Everything you're saying is thoroughly Saturn. You must be in an extremely Saturn moment.

There are other planets, too. That's what keeps Saturn in check, in the big picture. Every planet checks the others.

A small dose of Saturn could be beneficial, if everything else is making you flighty and noncommittal and not get anything done. Then that small dose of Saturn brings some discipline and stick-to-it-iveness. But too much Saturn is exactly what you're describing. It's not beneficial at that point. You need a dose of something else to help balance it.
I have my sun in Capricorn, Saturn on my IC, Saturn in Sag opposing my midheaven and Chiron. Saturn square my ascendant, Saturn square my Mars and Jupiter in the 6th & 7th house and I have a stellium in the 4th with Saturn conjunct my stellium. And Saturn conjunct Uranus and moon in Sag. I thought Saturn got better after the Saturn return but i see it doesn't.
 

clip11

Well-known member
Traditionally Saturn ruled most of the bad stuff that happened to people. That's what Saturn was for in a horoscope. The 12th house (and to a lesser extent, Mars, the 8th and 6th houses) pretty much ruled the bad stuff that was left.

This pessimism began to change with modern astrology. I highly recommend Liz Greene's book, Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil.

Saturn is my wisest planetary teacher. Learn his lessons, and you can get through much of what life throws at you.

When Life Isn't Fair, Saturn gives you strength to get through the unfairness. When you're broke, Saturn gives you the resourcefulness and resilience to get through the hard times.

Incidentally, I have had some Saturnian days recently. We just bought a "new" (to us) house in a 55+ community, in need of extensive renovations, including the landscaping. I spent days clearing out overgrown juniper shrubs, and pruning the 4 survivors according to Japanese garden principles (as I understand them.) The work was physically strenuous, hot, sweaty, and prickly. 3 pickup truck loads of branches to go to the dump. Very Saturn. Saturn rules hard work and old age.

But we recently had several neighbours tell us how much they appreciated the work we were doing. (A rough-looking yard affects the neighbours' property values, as well as their sense of aesthetics.) One man brought us a bottle of wine to welcome us to the neighborhood.

This may seem like a small reward, but Saturn deals with the long-term time frame. Good will from one's neighbours, especially in a small town like ours, counts for a great deal.

The other reward is seeing how an overgrown mass of shrubs can become a beautiful garden that lifts the soul.

So no, Saturn isn't the planet of get-rich-quick, or feel-good-now. Its message is more, put the hard work in now, and rewards will come later.

Saturn is in it for the long haul.

But is the juice worth the squeeze? Is the "reward" worth the **** you deal with? Or is it "lose 100 dollars so you'll get back 10 dollars in the future"? Sure getting back ten dollars is better than nothing but it isn't worth losing 100 dollars.
 

clip11

Well-known member
But isn't that thesis that "what goes around comes around" entirely predictable? We know that what we give out is what we get back, multiplied. Which is why Saturn's strongest lesson is self-discipline. There's nothing evil in that. It merely acknowledges predictable consequences of actions. Saturn isn't out to get us.

It's not a question of being more articulate, but a question of understanding the probable consequences of our actions.


(The unpredictable events are more Uranian.)
If Saturn isn't out to get you, then why does it cause bad things to happen which you have done nothing to deserve?

Because of difficulties during my birth and an illness during infancy, it caused me to develop a cognitive challenge which has stunted my social skills making it difficult for me to make & keep friends, caused me to do bad in school (which caused me to be punished at home because at that time, I wasn't diagnosed so my sub par grades were thought to be due to "laziness") and it has caused me to lose a career and have great difficulty finding another well paying career.

So if what goes around comes around, I must ask, as an infant, what did I do to deserve that? It's as if I was punished for merely existing.
 

david starling

Well-known member
People say that Saturn in your chart helps you build character. So that justifies all of the hardships that it brings. But after you "build character" what then? Can you buy anything or get anything tangible with your newly built character. Its like working a hard job, but for monopoly money. Something that at the end of the day is worthless.

So how can any of the difficulties that Saturn bring be justified if there is no tangible reward at the end? It can't be unless you count reaching around and patting yourself on the back as a reward. So Saturn wants to "teach you patience", so what? What benefit does having more patience do for you? What can you buy with it? Can I trade it for goods and services? Do I get a harem of young women for my patience? If no, how am I or anyone else better off for "Saturn's lessons"?

That's why I call Saturn the devil's planet.

Have you had a Saturn Return yet?
 

waybread

Well-known member
If Saturn isn't out to get you, then why does it cause bad things to happen which you have done nothing to deserve?

Because of difficulties during my birth and an illness during infancy, it caused me to develop a cognitive challenge which has stunted my social skills making it difficult for me to make & keep friends, caused me to do bad in school (which caused me to be punished at home because at that time, I wasn't diagnosed so my sub par grades were thought to be due to "laziness") and it has caused me to lose a career and have great difficulty finding another well paying career.

So if what goes around comes around, I must ask, as an infant, what did I do to deserve that? It's as if I was punished for merely existing.

So how do you know this is Saturn in the first place?

Or, just go ahead and blame your unhappiness on Saturn rather than taking responsibility for your life. See if it improves your situation.

Your cognitive abilities sound more like Mercury.

Do you want to post your chart?

And believe me, 30-year olds may be clueless about how to manage money if they have it. If they haven't mastered financial self-discipline, the money tends to get away from them.

Maybe you'd prefer to be really poor when you are elderly and your health is failing. Nursing homes are really expensive. Or maybe you think the state or your children (if any) will support you.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
clip, just one more thing. So some bad things happened to you that shouldn't have happened. You're a walking example of how life isn't fair.

But you have choices to make as to how you understand yourself in the face of life's inherent unfairness. Do you choose to understand yourself as a miserable victim? Or as a resilient survivor?

Not coincidentally, Saturn rules the bones of the body in a general way, but the sun and Leo rule the backbone.

And then if life were 100% fair, you might lose the good things in your life now.

Are you familiar with the poem Invictus? (Nelson Mandela's favorite-- as a man who spent 27 years in prison.)

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus
 

david starling

Well-known member
clip, just one more thing. So some bad things happened to you that shouldn't have happened. You're a walking example of how life isn't fair.

But you have choices to make as to how you understand yourself in the face of life's inherent unfairness. Do you choose to understand yourself as a miserable victim? Or as a resilient survivor?

Not coincidentally, Saturn rules the bones of the body in a general way, but the sun and Leo rule the backbone.

And then if life were 100% fair, you might lose the good things in your life now.

Are you familiar with the poem Invictus? (Nelson Mandela's favorite-- as a man who spent 27 years in prison.)

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus

* ["And then if life were 100% fair, you might lose the good things in your life now."]

*[Not understanding what this means. Can you please explain?] :unsure:
 

clip11

Well-known member
Any major attitude changes come along with it?

The only things that happened was that as a result of losing my career I was diagnosed with the cognitive disorder that I had actually been afflicted with my whole life. And I began to find out more about it and it's origins. I've tried to treat it and over come it but no luck.
 

clip11

Well-known member
So how do you know this is Saturn in the first place?

Or, just go ahead and blame your unhappiness on Saturn rather than taking responsibility for your life. See if it improves your situation.

Your cognitive abilities sound more like Mercury.

Do you want to post your chart?

And believe me, 30-year olds may be clueless about how to manage money if they have it. If they haven't mastered financial self-discipline, the money tends to get away from them.

Maybe you'd prefer to be really poor when you are elderly and your health is failing. Nursing homes are really expensive. Or maybe you think the state or your children (if any) will support you.
If I had money id save some. That is why I'm desperate to find a well paying career. I used to have one but I lost it
 

clip11

Well-known member
So how do you know this is Saturn in the first place?

Or, just go ahead and blame your unhappiness on Saturn rather than taking responsibility for your life. See if it improves your situation.

Your cognitive abilities sound more like Mercury.

Do you want to post your chart?

And believe me, 30-year olds may be clueless about how to manage money if they have it. If they haven't mastered financial self-discipline, the money tends to get away from them.

Maybe you'd prefer to be really poor when you are elderly and your health is failing. Nursing homes are really expensive. Or maybe you think the state or your children (if any) will support you.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=85597&d=1591076930

Even my Mercury is in Capricorn which is ruled by Saturn and Saturn is in my 3rd house which as far as I know rules the nervous system. The third house that is
 

david starling

Well-known member
The only things that happened was that as a result of losing my career I was diagnosed with the cognitive disorder that I had actually been afflicted with my whole life. And I began to find out more about it and it's origins. I've tried to treat it and over come it but no luck.

That's a major change! You no longer have to blame yourself.
 

clip11

Well-known member
Any major attitude changes come along with it?
I also became more atheistic during my Saturn return even though I was raised a Christian and at one time wanted to be a preacher. I remember as a child I was taught that Jesus loves me and that he was my heavenly father and all of that stuff but life has taught me that even though my mom may have meant well in telling me that, it is categorically false.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I don't believe in Christian doctrine, either.

It would be a lot easier to interact if you would post your chart.

But basically, you've had a few good things in your life, no? If life were truly fair, those good things would have to get evened out to a lower "average" point.
 
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