moon in late degree

I know that the moon in late degree means that the chart is not fit to be judged;I've also read that the querent already knows the answer or has asked the question before but I don't and I haven't.Or could it be that there are other hidden factors that I'm not yet aware of?
Can I ask the question again soon?

Moon in late degree generally means 'don't worry about it because nothing will come of the matter.'

misskitty said:

Moon in late degree generally means 'don't worry about it because nothing will come of the matter.'

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well I asked "will I eventually pay off my mortgage"

Hi everyone

okay we are having a wierd moon void

it will be void tomorrow as well as day after until it reaches 28 virgo!

and most of the planets are VOID... and not applying to anything
other than merc/jupiter we have NOTHING

congrads to horary board.. we wont have any yesses to any quesitons .. jokingly!

T

Without seeing the entire chart it is impossible to know for sure what the late Moon means here, but in general a VOC Moon or Moon in late degrees means that no further action will occur in the situation that is asked about. You should also look at if the Moon still has actions remaining. Sometimes, even if the Moon is late, an aspect may have not perfected yet but will before the Moon leaves the current sign. That is an important consideration.

There have been a couple of queries lately with the 29 degree moon!

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67666

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...572#post502572

Quote:
Re: Is he going to marry me?
Yet my dear Forum membership, according to Guildo Bonatus this one is so critical!

Really, did I actually say this was is so critical regarding said horary?


http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Quote:
Anima Astrologiae; Or, A GUIDE for ASTROLOGERS

Being the Considerations of the famous
GUIDO BONATUS

Quote:
30. The 30th Consideration is, To observe when a planet that is Significator, or the Moon, shall have past the 29th degree of the Sign wherein it is, and touches the 30th , and especially if it have passed one minute of that degree; for then it shall have no strength in that Sign, but in the next; so that if in the first it signified any evil, it shall hurt the person or thing threatened no more than the fall of a house shall one that is just got out of it; or being with one foot upon the threashold, has one behind him that throws him out; and then the building falls. And if it signifies any good, it shall profit no more than he that hath spread a nest for birds, and just touches the feathers of their tails, but never catches their bodies; and therefore ‘Zael’ says, “If a planet or the Moon be in the 29th degree of any Sign, its virtue is yet in that Sign wherein he is; because he has not yet wholly past the 30th degree.” &c.
Observe this horary's Moon at 29 degrees!
.
__________________
And other vanguard horary artists have noted the 29 degree moon as in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=25373

http://www.serenapowers.com/horary.html


Quote:
Is the Moon in late degrees? A chart may be unsafe to judge if the Moon is in the last degrees of a sign, especially Gemini, Scorpio and Capricorn.
Quote:
Horary Astrology was an extremely popular branch of astrology in Europe in times past but it ... to consider, however, the skill, as always, lies in the exact interpretation of the chart. ... A chart may be unsafe to judge if the Moon is in the last degrees of a sign, .... Scheat 29º22' Pisces - Failure and difficulties
http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/...rary-glossary/


Quote:
.... d) Moon in a late degree, especially in Gemini, Scorpio, or Capricorn: ... Also the degrees that are at the beginning and ending (0 and 29 degrees) of zodiac signs. ...
http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/...1/lesson1.html


Quote:
The Moon is considered a co-ruler of the querent. .... I do use these means to validate charts, but generally, I look at the chart as whole to see if it describes the ... Ivy Goldstein- Jacobson regarded some degrees as critical, among them, 29 degrees of any sign.
http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson5/

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44561

I'm Not a fan of the Modernism in horary, as I try to maintain a Traditionalist approach in horary yet note the following about the 29 degree moon:

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/For...ML/013910.html
.
__________________

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Note how the query is and the sincerity!
.

I don't agree that a late degree means necessarily that a question cannot be answered. Really these 'strictures' against judgements are misrepresentations of the older 'considerations' BEFORE judgement. They are not necessarily a litmus test on whether a chart can be addressed or not, and rather they are certain factors that an astrologer is advised to consider and keep in mind before forming a judgement.

A late degree moon strongly suggests that a matter is imminently about to change, or that some circumstance will change which is likely to affect the horary.

I disagree that void moons mean that, necessarily, 'nothing comes of it' as it's too vague and doesn't seem to be true. Usually it means that it's difficult or requires great will to change the situation, the ball is already in motion as it were. Particularly it can show where the querent has little ability to affect the outcome or actually do anything about the situation. Not that nothing will come of the matter, more like the ability of the querent to affect the matter is limited and would require particular will to do so.

Paul states:

I disagree that void moons mean that, necessarily, 'nothing comes of it' as it's too vague and doesn't seem to be true. Usually it means that it's difficult or requires great will to change the situation, the ball is already in motion as it were. Particularly it can show where the querent has little ability to affect the outcome or actually do anything about the situation. Not that nothing will come of the matter, more like the ability of the querent to affect the matter is limited and would require particular will to do so.

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Well Paul what is your source or sources?

Otherwise it can be put into Lilly's 3rd house queries as in 'Is the Rumour True?' In other words is this your opinion minus any documentation from others who have gone before because then it becomes like border-line hearsay?

Paul that is Considerations, NOT Strictures which Barbara Watters misunderstood, bless her for trying!

Who taught this idea?

Below is from Henry Coley, Lilly's most trusted translation from Latin!

Any Ben Dykes advocates wish to share what Ben translated?

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Quote:
Anima Astrologiae; Or, A GUIDE for ASTROLOGERS

Being the Considerations of the famous
GUIDO BONATUS

Quote:
30. The 30th Consideration is, To observe when a planet that is Significator, or the Moon, shall have past the 29th degree of the Sign wherein it is, and touches the 30th , and especially if it have passed one minute of that degree; for then it shall have no strength in that Sign, but in the next; so that if in the first it signified any evil, it shall hurt the person or thing threatened no more than the fall of a house shall one that is just got out of it; or being with one foot upon the threashold, has one behind him that throws him out; and then the building falls. And if it signifies any good, it shall profit no more than he that hath spread a nest for birds, and just touches the feathers of their tails, but never catches their bodies; and therefore ‘Zael’ says, “If a planet or the Moon be in the 29th degree of any Sign, its virtue is yet in that Sign wherein he is; because he has not yet wholly past the 30th degree.” &c.

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I mean Bonatti was highly thought of by Lilly, and some say he is hard to understand and there is anther translation!
.

Paul_ said:

I don't agree that a late degree means necessarily that a question cannot be answered. Really these 'strictures' against judgements are misrepresentations of the older 'considerations' BEFORE judgement. They are not necessarily a litmus test on whether a chart can be addressed or not, and rather they are certain factors that an astrologer is advised to consider and keep in mind before forming a judgement.

A late degree moon strongly suggests that a matter is imminently about to change, or that some circumstance will change which is likely to affect the horary.

I disagree that void moons mean that, necessarily, 'nothing comes of it' as it's too vague and doesn't seem to be true. Usually it means that it's difficult or requires great will to change the situation, the ball is already in motion as it were. Particularly it can show where the querent has little ability to affect the outcome or actually do anything about the situation. Not that nothing will come of the matter, more like the ability of the querent to affect the matter is limited and would require particular will to do so.

Click to expand...

Right, because the Moon will always be the co-significator of the querent, before we consider it as a timing mechanism, or even before we consider her as the ruler of whatever house falls on the cusp of Cancer.

To my understanding, at the end of the day, or the end of horary, the Moon will show how the events will unfold, and because the Moon is the swiftest planet in the sky, we look to her. A planet that is void is different from a planet that is in the last degrees of a sign...and that difference can be significant if we are willing to entertain out of sign aspects...as Lilly, and Bonatti, and even the Persians were. For that matter, so did the Hellenists if the Moon were within 5* of another planet by oos aspect.

Void of course has the significance of not seeking to join, or having another seek to join (applying aspect) while in the current sign. In late degree has another connotation, as in Moon may well be seeking to join within orb of moiety (as used by Lilly et al) once Moon has changed signs and that will color the delineation.

OMG folks, can we please get past the whole misinterpretation of considerations before jugement (Bonatti) and understand that those considerations were not meant to say that an astrologer was unable to render judgement? Unless of course the astrologer is afraid to actually judge the chart, and would prefer to give all the reasons why it can't be judged. It reminds me of all the reasons Yoda gave to Obi Wan about why Luke was unfit to be a Jedi....yet Luke became the best Jedi ever.

Clinton Soule said:

Well Paul what is your source or sources?
..
Otherwise it can be put into Lilly's 3rd house queries as in 'Is the Rumour True?' In other words is this your opinion minus any documentation from others who have gone before because then it becomes like border-line hearsay?

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Hi Clinton Soule

I don't always feel the need to prefix every opinion with "he said" "she said" but then "so and so said". If you want to ignore my view, put it in the third house for rumours true or untrue, or do what you want with it, by all means go ahead.

My view is based on an understanding of void moons through the entire tradition, including Lilly and Bonatti as you cite them, and also the earlier Hellenistic doctrine. The idea of things going 'hardly' on means or implies that it is hard or difficult for things to move on or change. The very reason why this can be mitigated in signs ruled by benefics or where the Moon herself has strong dignity is that these favourable influences help provide more strength for the Moon.

I won't be providing an exhaustive list of references to further explain my conclusions (which are based on a wide variety of sources). You can conclude or do what you will what my view as a result.

Paul that is Considerations, NOT Strictures which Barbara Watters misunderstood, bless her for trying!

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I'm confused why you need to tell me this when I myself said that they were not strictures but instead considerations which had been misrepresented.

Yes, Barabara Watters first propounded this view. I just have no wish of turning every conversation I join into a history lesson though. This is not the ethos that I understood the original poster to be operating under.

Below is from Henry Coley, Lilly's most trusted translation from Latin!

Any Ben Dykes advocates wish to share what Ben translated?

Click to expand...

Yes Clinton, I have Dykes' translation and have access to Coley's. I fail to see the point though. I am already familiar with all this. Nothing quoted contradicts my view. The logic behind what Bonatti is describing is that in the earlier Hellenistic tradition (from which this is ultimately inspired) noted a three degree diamater of orb around most points (though in this tradition the Moon had much more) and so as a planet came to the end of the sign, part of its orb spilled into the next sign. At the 30th degree there is one degree in the next sign, one degree firmly in the current sign, and the current degree of that the planet is at part in one and the other. Hence why that planet loses its power in the sign in which it is situated, it is instead like a person walking from room to another, from the rulership of one planet to another, and thus its power or efficacy over the sign it is in diminishes quickly. This is precisely what Sahl means which we can see if we look to Sahl's work.

Note: This logic is utterly different from that which void of course Moons are related to. In other words it is not relevant to the point I made.

I have no wish to turn every conversation into an exhaustive list of sources. If that what the OP wants, then of course I will provide further explanation or sources so as to provide the confidence she may need. In the meantime my views can just be taken as the views of someone who has read multiple sources and tried to summarise the general ethos (as I understand it) behind the logic here. Take it or leave it.

tsmall said:

Right, because the Moon will always be the co-significator of the querent, before we consider it as a timing mechanism, or even before we consider her as the ruler of whatever house falls on the cusp of Cancer.

Click to expand...

Right, not always, but nearly always the Moon co-signifies the querent. Really, in my view, the Moon signifies the entire horary itself, particularly the main focus of that horary. Nearly always the main focus is on us. But in certain situations where we're not so directly involved in the horary, we see that the Moon co-signifies other things instead - sometimes that's a missing person, or lost object for example.

The Moon distributes the light of the planets and so is referred as distributing the influence of all the other planets. When she is void it shows that she is no longer in the act of distributing influence amongst the other planets and so as this distribution is symbolic of the unfolding or changing of events and actions, we symoblically realise that a void of course moon means that, for the moment, there is little going to change - which is what most mean by void of course - but really, in the context of a horary, it means not that 'nothing comes of the matter' but rather that the matter is already in motion with nothing changing to alter its course. In order to alter its course we need to apply our own influence and will, rather than 'going with' the flow of the Moon's distributions. Hence why things go 'hardly' on when the Moon is void and why older authors show that it requires greater effort and toil to perfect a matter when the moon is void.

Paul stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Soule
Well Paul what is your source or sources?
..
Otherwise it can be put into Lilly's 3rd house queries as in 'Is the Rumour True?' In other words is this your opinion minus any documentation from others who have gone before because then it becomes like border-line hearsay?

Hi Clinton Soule

I don't always feel the need to prefix every opinion with "he said" "she said" but then "so and so said". If you want to ignore my view, put it in the third house for rumours true or untrue, or do what you want with it, by all means go ahead.

My view is based on an understanding of void moons through the entire tradition, including Lilly and Bonatti as you cite them, and also the earlier Hellenistic doctrine. The idea of things going 'hardly' on means or implies that it is hard or difficult for things to move on or change. The very reason why this can be mitigated in signs ruled by benefics or where the Moon herself has strong dignity is that these favourable influences help provide more strength for the Moon.

I won't be providing an exhaustive list of references to further explain my conclusions (which are based on a wide variety of sources). You can conclude or do what you will what my view as a result.

Click to expand...

Paul, I don't know about the standards of Europe, Asia, S. America, Africa, etc... on Academic Honesty, in other words citing one's sources where others see where you got the data from because it lends itself to concluding that if Not cited that you invented it, came up with the idea on your own;r possibly greatly misunderstood the concepts that prior authors had written about.

But I was hoping you could share where such concepts came from, all of us astrologers wish for great education I hope!

I don't wish to ignore your view, I just want to know for astrologie's sake who influenced you on these concepts as there are far too many writting preposterus data that others latter will accept as facts when in reality it was either the authors opinion from their misconception or the invention of the author as they appeared Not to cite a source.

Paul states:

The logic behind what Bonatti is describing is that in the earlier Hellenistic tradition (from which this is ultimately inspired) noted a three degree diamater of orb around most points (though in this tradition the Moon had much more) and so as a planet came to the end of the sign, part of its orb spilled into the next sign. At the 30th degree there is one degree in the next sign, one degree firmly in the current sign, and the current degree of that the planet is at part in one and the other. Hence why that planet loses its power in the sign in which it is situated, it is instead like a person walking from room to another, from the rulership of one planet to another, and thus its power or efficacy over the sign it is in diminishes quickly. This is precisely what Sahl means which we can see if we look to Sahl's work.

Click to expand...

This is what is so intriguing, and why I had hoped that you would share the where abouts of how you arrived at this.

I mean Lilly admitted he did Not know enough about Fortuna.

And enquiring minds want to know why you have arrived at the opinions you have as there is some insights there that as you know so many on the forums are perplexed yet they think they are correct in their assumptions.

I mean should our astrological oppinions reflect that of our forefathers concepts and should we have good references of why we do as we do?
.

Clinton Soule said:

Paul, I don't know about the standards of Europe, Asia, S. America, Africa, etc... on Academic Honesty, in other words citing one's sources where others see where you got the data from because it lends itself to concluding that if Not cited that you invented it, came up with the idea on your own;r possibly greatly misunderstood the concepts that prior authors had written about.

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Let me fill in some blanks for you then. The most important one is that academic honesty is a subject which is relevant to academia, not to casual addresses on an online forum.

Also I can see that you are quite correct in not understanding the standards of what Academic Honesty entails if you believe that the absence of a source concludes that the author has invented the idea.

But I was hoping you could share where such concepts came from, all of us astrologers wish for great education I hope!

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Your probable sarcasm and obsession with emoticons aside, a better approach is to simply ask for references rather than hold an opinion to ransom unless you get one. Frankly if you would like me to provide references, ask me, do not think I care enough whether you get them or what your opinion of me or my contributions are if you don't get them.

If you wish to be better informed, there are some people skills that might be better developed which can aid you on that journey making your requests more ameliorated to receiving answers. Demanding references with the ultimatum that some conclusion will be formed by you unless you get your way is not a great people skill to employ in hoping to get something from someone.

One day the Sun and Wind conversed and they saw a man wearing a heavy coat. Said the Wind, I am strongest for I can remove that man's coat with my strong gales. The wind blew and blew and the man gripped tighter and tighter to his coat until, exhausted, the wind gave up. The sun simply emerged from a cloud and waited calmly and patiently for the man to take off his coat of his own accord.
Honey attracts more flies than vinegar it seems.

I don't wish to ignore your view,

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Then don't. It is entirely your own choice whether to ignore it or not, it is you who invented the self made rule binding yourself to ignoring those views where someone has not spent a great deal of time tracking through endless tomes to provide you with references.

Personally I didn't have the time for it, this isn't an academic medium, and the OP made no move as to suggest it was a necessity. SO I didn't.

It is, as ever, your prerogative what you wish to ignore or not, based on whatever logic you wish to employ or not.

As I say, I'm happy for you to simply ignore it as 'just my opinion' if you want to.

Paul:

Your probable sarcasm and obsession with emoticons aside, a better approach is to simply ask for references rather than hold an opinion to ransom unless you get one. Frankly if you would like me to provide references, ask me, do not think I care enough whether you get them or what your opinion of me or my contributions are if you don't get them.

If you wish to be better informed, there are some people skills that might be better developed which can aid you on that journey making your requests more ameliorated to receiving answers. Demanding references with the ultimatum that some conclusion will be formed by you unless you get your way is not a great people skill to employ in hoping to get something from someone.

Click to expand...

Last thing I wanted to do was be unkind!

Evidently my mars may be showing, so in that case I am going to re-examine my pants....in that I wasn't trying to be offensive!

Clinton Soule said:

Last thing I wanted to do was be unkind!

Evidently my mars may be showing, so in that case I am going to re-examine my pants....in that I wasn't trying to be offensive!

Click to expand...

Tone is hard to convey online.

Starting with juxtaposing my entire opinion against "is the rumour true" isn't a great way to inspire trust and a spirit of open minded equal engagement. Concluding with an idea that to not provide you with references is tantamount to admitting that I've made something up, hammers that nail in further.

Perhaps you are not aware that statements like these do not inspire people, though I can only truly speak for myself, to take the time (and it would take time) to track down references for you, when there are so many other things I could do with my time.

So much simpler to say "I would be interested if you could provide any references, one of the reasons I say this is that I would disagree on [insert point] because [insert reason]".

A conversation then, rather than a haughty demand from others.