Help Find Missing Madeleine.

tikana

Well-known member
hmm

i hate to say this but all charts i have run on her, i got a very morbid answer

anyone got anything remotely possitive on a poor little girl?

Tik
 

tikana

Well-known member
guys, gals

I totally agree with Archergirl

I just find Madeline's kidnappning to be nothing but a family or friend's planning and execution.

something went terribly wrong between her parents and their friends or relatives.

this is not normal. 80% of all kidnappings is planned well ahead by people who know the family

does anyone ever hear about the 14 year old girl who was kidnapped by a carpterner somewhere in california.. and then she had a chance to get away, she didnt .. I didnt hear what happened after.


http://amw.com/missing_children/amber_alerts.cfm

take a look at this most of these cases, people knew either the children or the parents

Tik
 

Sweet Stars

Well-known member
They better not have harmed her.

:(

Things like this happen to much. In my country it happens almost on a daily basis. Children being kidnapped.
 

astro07

Member
hi everybody there!!! i should tell you people that you did a good job analizing maddie's supposed abduction chart, but you did wrong at not analizing and considering as really a single horary chart...

i did it and i'm kindly inviting you to have a look at it at this link...
LINK DELETEDhttp://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1179475323/0

sorry that's in spanish so i translate it to you in advance; maddie's alive and will soon return home, that's all i have to say... in the near future i'll share with you why i'm telling you that... so wait for me.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi Astro.

Firstly let me thank you for directing my attention to an AstroDienst forum. I had no idea that there was on until now.

Secondly,

i should tell you people that you did a good job analizing maddie's supposed abduction chart, but you did wrong at not analizing and considering as really a single horary chart

Personally, I was not using a supposed abduction chart at all. I was using the time widely reported to have been the time at which the phone-call to the police was logged. Therefore in this event chart, I was seeing the parent in the ascendant as the initiators of the action, and Madeliene as the fifth, as their daughter.

Had the data for the actual abduction been known, then the ascendant would then have been the abductor, as the initiator of the action.

I have a suspicion that the abduction will have occured when the latter degrees of Scorpio were rising.

you did wrong at not analizing and considering as really a single horary chart

I didn't. Where an event chart is available, horaries are rendered obselete, a personal horary is another matter, but I would never ask such questions. This is because there are hundreds of people all over the world who have cast charts upon this question, but the the real chart containing the answers is the horoscope of the events pertaining to the disappearance.

For example, I do not believe in horaries where a person asks who will win a football match. Why answer several different horaries (giving different answers), when the time, date and location at which the match will begin is known, how can a personal horary tell us what will occur more descriptively than the chart for the birth of event itself?

It could be said that if a matter is not in one's personal interest, a horary shouldn't be asked anyway.

Of course, this is my opinion, but I didnt analyse a chart of the supposed abduction, and I don't believe I did wrong by choosing not to analyse Futurist's horary. Why not then look at yours and everyone elses who has asked this question, all of them saying different things? These charts are the products of the psyches of many disparate persons with no connection to the event, their chart soaked in value judgements and morbid curiosity.
 

astro07

Member
hi draco!!

i know you mean well but it's your opinion considering maddie's supposed abduction chart, and i insist on saying supposed 'cause nobody knows exactly that it's the correct hour to even think on an event abduction chart!!!

you mean the official report and i say the official supossed right information, now other official report says that none of her parents was really taken care -as they said they did- of her... and her little brothers...

but if we consider as right this event chart you analized at, why do you consider maddie's supposed house as being fitfh??? is she the daughter of the person who acted as the ASC chart, i mean the kidnapper??? cause you know well that the person who act in first place might be consider as the ASC...

but you said that the ASC represent her parents making a phone call to the police saying "where my daughter is"??? other mistake, cause they didn't ask that question but might have said "my little daughter is missing, help us to find her"!!!

two corrections to do; if the event chart is to be considered as right, isn't this chart describing rather the fears her parents felt at the time they were making the phone call or report to the police instead of describing maddie's abduction beginning and end as you did it???

why not consider the event chart as describing rather the actions the captor/s made -at the time when they were abducting her- in the shadows, with no mercy for her or even her parents, etc, etc, etc-??? why not???

as you see i support the fact that the horary charts have been made before that abduction occurred are not the product of perverted minds, acting by pure morbid curiosity, for heaven’s sake, please!!!

but i insist on this; you did not well at not considering the facts i remarked above... think about it, you might be the one wrong in this case, and not the morbid minds that may have sincerely asked so many horary charts all over the world!!!

time will speak... soon.

here the chart for you to see, if you pleased!!!

LINK DELETED
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi again Astro.

i know you mean well but it's your opinion considering maddie's supposed abduction chart, and i insist on saying supposed 'cause nobody knows exactly that it's the correct hour to even think on an event abduction chart!!!

I'm not sure if it's that your not so conversant in the English tongue, but you appear to be misunderstanding me, as I am also having trouble deciphering your message, although I get the gist of it.


I don't mean well or otherwise, nor do I pretend to, I sought to have a go at interpreting the chart for the sake of my own interest, so in truth, my motives are purely selfish.

As I explained in the previous post, which you may care to read again, I told you that the event chart that I attempted to analyse was not the 'supposed abduction chart'.

Let me offer you my logic upon this.

The time at which Madeleine was reported to have been discovered missing is at 9.45 P.M.

The time at which the phone call to the authorities was made by the parents is widely reported as being at 10.00 P.M.

So the events pertaining to the disappearance were occuring sometime between 9.45 and 10.00pm.

Now, what is interesting about this time frame, is that the ascendant changes signs, and we must consider what this may reflect about the nature of things that are occuring.

The chart for the phonecall, and indeed the very great majority of the time frame between 9.45 and 10.00 has an early Sagittarius ascendant, so we must consider what may have been occuring just prior to this, when the ascendant was in Scorpio, and conjoined the Moon in fall, because this means that the initiator of any action at this time would have been represented by Mars.

Now, I theorise, logically, that Madeleine may well have been abducted when the Moon was on the ascendant, and the diminishing degrees of Scorpio rose. I say this, because the Moon in fall upon the ascendant would be a fitting title for such a grim occurance taking place. When Scorpio was rising, then the initiator of actions at this time would have been Mars, the natural significator of predators, and therefore his target, Madeleine, would have been represented by Venus, the natural significator of little girls. So this makes sense.

However, the events in which the parents were initiating the action, both in discovering her missing, looking for her, and calling the police, then we see at these times, that Sagittarius was rising, and as such, the parents, initiating the action, are Jupiter, and the reason that Madeleine is then Mars, is because Aries rules the fifth cusp from the ascendant, representing the parent's child.

So you see, I didn't interpret a 'supposed abduction chart', I interpreted a chart set for a time widely reported to have been the parents phoning the police, and interpreted accordingly. However, I do indeed theorise that she may well have been abducted when the Moon was rising in Scorpio, for the sound reasons I have set out, but I have not attempted to interpret this chart, so I don't know what you mean.

you mean the official report and i say the official supossed right information, now other official report says that none of her parents was really taken care -as they said they did- of her... and her little brothers...

I couldn't make any sense of this. What is 'official supposed right information'?

but if we consider as right this event chart you analized at, why do you consider maddie's supposed house as being fitfh??? is she the daughter of the person who acted as the ASC chart, i mean the kidnapper??? cause you know well that the person who act in first place might be consider as the ASC...

The chart I attempted to analyse had Sagittarius rising, and was set for the time of Madeleine parent's call to the police, or at least the time at which this was widely reported to have taken place, meaning that it is the significant data The Powers That Be intended for us to look at anyway, as we have no other option.

The reason that I saw Madeleine as Mars in this chart, is because as the initiators of the action, her parents are the ascendant, and as their child, Madeleine is represented in the fifth cusp from the first. You really ought to know how to turn a chart if you're going to argue about horary.

The predator would not be seen in the ascendant of the chart that I analysed, because he was not initiating the action at this time, her parents were, but it can be suspected, indeed, expected, that the abductor performed his deed with Scorpio on the ascendant, for reasons already explained, and again I repeat, I never attempted to interpret such a chart.

but you said that the ASC represent her parents making a phone call to the police saying "where my daughter is"??? other mistake, cause they didn't ask that question but might have said "my little daughter is missing, help us to find her"!!!

What is the qualitative difference between these two questions. They both pertain to hoping to discover the whereabouts of their daughter, you're splitting hairs.

The fact is the parents were desperately wanting to know where Madeleine was at this time, so it can be taken for granted that the ultimate issue of the moment was 'Where is Maddie!?'.

two corrections to do; if the event chart is to be considered as right, isn't this chart describing rather the fears her parents felt at the time they were making the phone call or report to the police instead of describing maddie's abduction beginning and end as you did it???

In the event chart, Madeleine and her abductor can be found in the chart by turning the chart. The chart cannot show the abductor as the ascendant, because he was not intiating the action at this time, that had already been done, and probably with Scorpio rising. So there are no corrections to be made.

why not consider the event chart as describing rather the actions the captor/s made -at the time when they were abducting her- in the shadows, with no mercy for her or even her parents, etc, etc, etc-??? why not???

The event chart that I used can describe the captor as well as Madeleine, by turning the chart as I have said.

as you see i support the fact that the horary charts have been made before that abduction occurred are not the product of perverted minds, acting by pure morbid curiosity, for heaven’s sake, please!!!

The term 'perverted minds' is rather harsh, and I never implied this, I mentioned 'morbid curiosity', which I myself freely admit to possessing in abundance. In the English speaking world, the term 'morbid curiosity' is very much a cliche, so it may sound rather more vulgar to you than I had intended.

Why would anybody ask a horary chart upon the whereabouts of the girl, before the abduction occured?

I already explained my reasoning to Futurist as to why I declined to try and interpret horaries upon this matter, and she was fine with it as my reasoning appeared sound. I'm not suggesting that you should not explore your own horary, I consider it to be obselete, in so much as exploring it myself is concerned, for logical reasons already given.

but i insist on this; you did not well at not considering the facts i remarked above... think about it, you might be the one wrong in this case, and not the morbid minds that may have sincerely asked so many horary charts all over the world!!!

I may well turn out to be incorrect in many aspects of my analyses, but I wasn't aware this was a contest. I do in fact hope to God that I am correct, and that she has been killed, because I dare not imagine what horrors she may be enduring if she should happen to be alive.

Should I happen to be incorrect, I will be delighted, because then I can review the chart and find out why, and then learn something from it that I'll never forget.

The very fact that 'so many horary charts all over the world', have been asked upon this issue, is why I consider that where an event chart is available, horaries upon the same matter are obselete, and it is only matters of personal concern that should be asked of anyway, because then the question is steeped in personal interest, and not, I repeat, value judgements and morbid curiosity. It is only the nature of the querent's interest that will be reflected in such horaries, and as the nature of the question is not personal, it ought not to be asked.

A paedophile who actually abducts children, and a mother with a daughter Madeleine's age, both asking this question as a horary, are going to give us very different charts, according to the nature of the each querents interest in this event. Think about it.

The trouble with your horaries 'all over the world', is that a third of them will give negative testimonies, a third of them positive ones and a third of them will be inconclusive, unfortunately, making it impossible to establish who was more significant, because the rest of the world will not draw the same conclusions, some will agree, some won't. So this comment makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, Futurists personal horary was interpreted by her to deliver a negative testimony, your's says, apparently, that she is alive and well and will return home (which logically is the least likely of all possibilities, and so would require several remarkably strong testimonies, particularly as your question was asked so long after the event). So how do you explain this? Is your horary somehow superior to Futurist's, and if so, for what reason? You have no more vested interest in the outcome of this event than she does (I'm sorry Fururist, I just need to make my point). By all means, try and interpret your personal horaries upon non-personal matters, it's good for practice and titillation if nothing else, but don't demand that others do so, nor claim that your horary is right, and everyone else's personal horaries that disagree, must be wrong - because they are all unsound horaries anyway.

I also wanted to mention to you, that the first thing to do before embarking upon any analysis of a horary or event chart, is to consider which outcome is logically more likely to happen. This is an essential part of the judgement, because if a matter is very unlikely to come to pass in any case, then we require stronger testimonies than usual, in order to deliver a positive outcome, and in the same way, if we already have discerned that an event is probable to come about, then we do not need so many positive indicators, if any.

In this case, we all know that when a young child disappears for so long, that the vast majority of the time, the child is either never found at all, or is discovered dead. Therefore, before even beginning an interpretation of the chart, I already knew that I was going to require a very strong testimony that she would be okay, and only a weak testimony that she was killed or lost, because this is the probability anyway. As it happened, the state of Madeleines significators are dire, making me very sure that she will not be coming back, on top of the greater likelihood that she won't anyway.

I could not read your horary in the AstroDiesnt forum, but if you would care to share your interpretation with us in English, then please do, as it's seems unfair that you are delivering so much criticism of my interpretation of the event chart, and yet you are not submitting your own horary analysis to be scrutinised.

The link to the chart that you provided has expired. I do not know where it is that people get these charts from or where they are uploading them, but all you get when you click on them is the orange box saying 'chart expired'. We get a lot of these orange boxes in the horary section. If anyone knows where these charts come from or where the upload is hosted, it might be a good idea to make a sticky to announce that it is not a good idea to use them, as they expire in no time, and this is annoying to both the poster and the reader.

I might point out Astro that it is a rule in these forums that a horary chart cannot be submitted for analysis unless the querent has first given their own analysis of the chart. So nobody can comment upon your chart anyway until you have.

I do wonder why it is that you attempted to provide the chart without your own interpretation anyway, seeing as you are so passionate about it.

First though, you'll have to read these messages from Mav and Radu:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/announcement.php?f=43
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
As the disappearance of madelaine has been made a public event there is no reason why it is invalid to do an event chart.Archergirl, if people are interested in this event then surely it is valid for us to look at charts...and I deliberately say charts ,plural. If you have any faith in astrology then surely you will realise that it doesn't matter how many charts are done....Astrology is valid in that the answer to the question will always be the answer to the question, no matter who asks it, no matter WHERE or WHEN it is asked.We will all learn from this and even if we can't know enough to help Madelaine now perhaps us doing this "exercise" will teach us enough to help us find someone else in the future.
Being right is not what this is about...it's about pooling our knowledge and exploring all the possibilities. I think, Archergirl if you aren't interested in the subject matter then go to a different thread.

Draco your chart was excellent and had you not done this work Archergirl may well have derailed this whole thread from which I personally have learnt A GREAT DEAL. \ I have located a missing person with horary and I believe it is always valid to try to lessen suffering in the world...If Madelaine was alive wouldn't she be glad to know that people put their time skills and energies into trying to find her? If any underpriveleged children go missing I would be just as willing to put the same amount of effort in. What you are in effect saying is that because we can't find all the missing kids we shouldn't bother to try and find one! or alternatively we shouldn't be putting effort in because shes "privileged"?
High profile cases give us all an excellent chance to learn-it is afterall a Forum!Regardless of the politics a girl is missing and so far we all seem to agree *(well MOSTLY) that she has met a sticky end. The next logical stage is to try to ascertain where is her body....horary anyone?Certainly if we can get agreement about THAT then we can be of real use to the police.I actually think, from reading everyone's threads, that Madelaine let herself out of her room- maybe sleepwalking? Looking for her parents? The involvement of Mercury suggests to me she was taken in a car a short distance..how come her brothers, apparently sleeping beside her didn't wake up? We don't have to rely on media reports- we can ascertain the facts via astrology alone- if we are willing to be open minded. lillyjgc
 
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Ruby 2

Well-known member
I must congratulate you Draco on your posts, they are superb!! By the way did you ever find the receipt for the CD?
 

astro07

Member
Well draco this is my theory about your wrong interpretation, but a good job after all, of the event chart -according to you- when maddie’s parents did question where her little girl was… pay well attention,“question”... so you’re analizing a horary chart if a question was made!!!

The horary chart of a question maybe well be interpreted as a horary “question” chart about an event taking place minutes or hours before that question is made.

The chart talking about the abduction -09:45/10:00pm- nobody knows the right time when it took place... so nobody could give any right information about that event.

You say that horary charts made after an event took place are not correct so may be discarded... wrong. Why do you then analize horary charts concernig missing items without analizing the event charts when -and where- the items were lost???

So i’m telling you that despite of your good interpretation made, you’re not analizing an event but a horary chart concerning an event that occurred at an unknown time and because of that all over the world horary charts made after the abduction are valid in the same way, so good for analizing as well... and the chart that i did analize give more hope for finding maddie alive than the horrible chart –with horrible and terrible comments- you considered according to your knowledge of the matter... bad for you.

Here’s the chart i support, have a look at it, and don’t discard it, after all is the one telling the truth... as you will see soon. bye

DELETED!
 
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AquarianEssence

Well-known member
Hmmm. This chart fits with the Asteroid Madeline being in Gemini lately, that being intercepted in 12. She was at 13Gem29 having just separated with Mercury. Interesting. I pointed out elsewhere that the asteroid was in the 7th of the discovered missing chart also intercepted.

Be nice to Draco though. He did a very good job assessing the chart. One thing I hadn't thought of in casting an event chart. What if the parents were behind an event and the the report was made under false pretenses? That would have to show in the chart somewhere. This chart looks like it was done for money. 1/7 are lacking and need a lot of money shown on 2/8 so they intercepted the little girl, put her in hiding and have Mercury ready to collect the reward. Ok, astro07, where do you have her hid?

Just kidding, but are you going to explain how you came to your conclusions? Who are you using to represent Madeline? Venus and the 5th? Is your question Where is Maddie? Have you determined where?
 

Draco

Well-known member
Hi Lilly.

Firstly, are the block capitals really essential? It's just appears very rude and aggressive, there is an italics tab, if you seek to stress particular points in a civil manner, there is also exclamation marks, which still indicate shouting, but not quite so maniacally.

Astrology is valid in that the answer to the question will always be the answer to the question, no matter WHO asks it, no matter WHERE or WHEN it is asked.

This is demonstratably untrue. How do you explain Futurist's horary delivering a negative testimony, and Astro's, apparently, delivering a positive one?

Is one of these individuals somehow superior? Does one of them hold the key to the mystery of missing Madeleine? If so, what makes that one so special.

Unfortunately, Astro hasn't delivered her obligatory interpretation as requested by the administrator, despite being referred to the rules for this forum, so sadly, her post may not survive to the end of the day. :(

This has happened many times before. I have had questions upon non-personal current events, all upon the same issue. Then you come to discover that one chart says one thing, and another the complete opposite. Wherever data for an event is possible, a horary is rendered obselete, you have to be desperate in some respect, and have a personal vested interest in horaries in order for them to be made sense of clearly, to have faith in what is being reflected, and for it to come true, and not just by chance.

How do you not get this?

Being RIGHT is not what this is about

I have in fact mentioned this more than once.

Archergirl if you aren't INTERESTED in the subject matter then GO TO A DIFFERENT thread instead of being sanctimonious and bogging everybody down with the should we/shouldn't we stuff

You're being very harsh on Archer. Archer expressed her opinion, and Futurist and I each delivered our own. I actually saw where she was coming from. However, I believe that the three of us managed to do this in a much more civil manner than you have, ranting and raving like a lunatic in block capitals. It puts me in mind of a red-faced cartoon character with steam billowing out of her ears and dramatically leaping up and down with rage, which is quite amusing. It appears a little over the top that you should be screaming and shouting in block capitals, and most immature, but if you do happen to be a twelve year old kid, forgive me.

When Archer comes back, I'm sure she'll assist me in straightening out some of the ignorance that abounds regarding horary and event astrology, as she seems to be one of the those that actually knows what she is talking about in regards to these matters, which is why I'm so glad that she maintains a presence on this forum, it's a breath of fresh air.

I suffer fools too gladly.

As moderator, I'm disturbed by the maniacal nature of your post, so if you can't discourse in a more civil manner, then I suggest that it is you that ought to go to a different thread, not Archer, who in all fairness hasn't posted in this thread for days, so why the impromptu attack?

The next logical stage is to try to ascertain where is her body.

Certainly if we can get agreement about THAT then we can be of REAL use to the police.

If you had been reading the thread attentively, you would have discovered that in fact, two of us, that have offered event chart interpretations have both of us drew the same conclusion as to where the body may be found. Get yer googles on Love, and read back. ;)

I actually think, from reading everyone's threads, thatMasdelaine let herself out of her room- maybe sleepwalking? Looking for her parents? The involvement of Mercury suggests to me she was taken in a car a short distance..how come her brothers, apparently sleeping beside her didn't wake up?

This isn't much of an analysis is it really? How did you get this from reading everyone's threads? No one has mentioned sleepwalking. I can't believe that you come up with this, while not even having a chart that you are working from, but just by 'reading everyone's threads'. It doesn't put you in much if a position to be so vehemently critical of other's who appear to know what they're doing does it?

we can ascertain the facts via astrology alone- if we are willing to be OPEN_MINDED. lillyjgc

You'd have to be incredibly open minded indeed to ascertain that half the horaries that say she is alive, and half of them that say she is dead, are all valid? Put your brain in, and get real.

Hi Ruby. :)

Sorry about this, I appear to be being harangued left, right and centre today. :eek:

You know what? I had actually forgotten about the chart concerning the receipt. I feel bad really, because I hate it when people don't bother getting back to me about what happened, but I understand that sometimes you can be waiting a long time to see an outcome, if at all, and in doing so, you tend to forget about the thread.

As it happens, I never did find that receipt! :mad:

I'll have to revisit that thread, and try and see where it says that I will not find it.

Astro,

Well draco this is my theory about your wrong interpretation, but a good job after all, of the event chart -according to you- when maddie’s parents did question where her little girl was… pay well attention,“question”... so you’re analizing a horary chart if a question was made!!!

Unfortunately Astro, this sentence is unintelligible in my language.

The horary chart of a question maybe well be interpreted as a horary “question” chart about an event taking place minutes or hours before that question is made.

You obviously didn't read my last post, but it's in proper, native English, so if you find it as difficult to make sense of my posts as I do yours, then that's understandable.

Can you explain to me why it is that your supposed positive testimony is valid, but Futurists horary is invalid? What kind of omniscience do you claim to possess?

Why do you then analize horary charts concernig missing items without analizing the event charts when -and where- the items were lost???

I'm glad you have asked this, because it gives me the opportunity to explain. If you happen to know the data for which an object has gone missing, then you can interpret this event chart, such as a dog running away, or dropping a ring and not knowing where it has rolled to. Usually however, a person will not discover they have lost something until some time later, and they'll have no idea where it is, no idea where they lost it. so they'll search around, begin to get desparate, panic, and then cast a horary, a valid horary.

Where an event chart exists, horaries are rendered obselete, for such obvious reasons already explained, I find this quite staggering that you don't get this concept. It usually only needs to be explained once.

The chart talking about the abduction -09:45/10:00pm- nobody knows the right time when it took place... so nobody could give any right information about that event.

Yet again, you seem to have failed to comprehend what I have been saying. Anyone who is interested need only read back to discern my logic regarding this matter. I feel that I did the best that I could do in light of the available information, and I'm just getting ripped to bits for it by very ignorant people who appear to have no common-sense.

because of that all over the world horary charts made after the abduction are valid in the same way

How can they all be valid if they all give different responses?

.
and the chart that i did analize give more hope for finding maddie alive than the horrible chart –with horrible and terrible comments- you considered according to your knowledge of the matter... bad for you

Have you not thought that if the girl did happen to be alive, do you not think that what she would be experiencing would not be infinately more horrible and terrible?

Terrible, tragic analysis it may have been, but after all, this is a tragic event, it was never going to be a barrel of laughs was it?

Here’s the chart i support, have a look at it, and don’t discard it, after all is the one telling the truth... as you will see soon. bye

Astro, I believe that I already told you that it is a rule in this forum that a horary question cannot be submitted unless the poster has first offered us their own interpretation, I was even courteous enough to give you the link to the guidelines to save your post from going into the bin.

However, yet again, you have posted the chart, and you haven't even bothered to post your own analysis. Why is this? Is it because you feel that you would not be able to articulately express yourself in English? What is it? You keep coming to tell us about your horary in which you believe that she will return alive and well, so why are you not eager to tell us all about it? Where is your interpretation as requested by the rules set out by the administrator, and which it is my responsibility to see that they are upheld?

after all is the one telling the truth

Really? So I ask again, what makes your horary superior to Futurist's? I wouldn't mind, but when Archergirl and I, horary astrologers, explained why it was that we felt that we were unable to work with her horary, she was fine with this, because admittedly, horary isn't her area, and being an intelligent woman, she understood our reasoning to be sound. However, this did not deter her at all from having faith in her own, personal horary, and she continued to explore it, and this is of course absolutely fine, it's none of our business.

Never once before, while I have moderated this forum has anybody so flagrantly stuck two fingers up at the forum rules, despite the fact that I had kindly presented you with the links.

I think that you have a cheek to expect me to interpret your invalid horary, despite having been told of what is required for posts here.

Therefore, I had a mind to delete your post, but I wouldn't wish to ruin the thread by removing your amusing posts, so I will keep the post intact and remove the link instead. ;)

If you would still like to share your horary with us however, please do, but if you do not provide an interpretation of your own this time, then the post itself will be removed, as you will have had two warnings, which is quite fair. One flagrant breach of the rules despite being directed to them is an affront to forum ettiquette, the community at large, and those of us put effort in to make these forums an organised and informative place.

Thankyou.

Draco.
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi Aquarian.

I do apologise, but Astro has made a flagrant breach of the forum rules. This has never happened before, it's my responsibility to see that this doesn't happen and I won't tolerate it.

Therefore, although this takes your interest, I have removed her link to the chart. I am sorry, but I'm not having someone sticking two fingers up at the forum rules like that, and getting away with it, despite being politely linked to the guidelines set out by Radu. No way.

Just kidding, but are you going to explain how you came to your conclusions? Who are you using to represent Madeline? Venus and the 5th? Is your question Where is Maddie? Have you determined where?

Precisely. This is just what we require, her horary analysis, then we can see if she even knows what she's doing with a horary.
 
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tikana

Well-known member
Astro

I learned not to defend people on boards BUT I WILL defend Draco on this

1. Draco is a brilliant astrologer. one of the best i have seen
2. What makes you think Draco is not interpreting the chart right? Not all the facts are known. How can it be wrong?
3. There are other professional horarists are saying that Madeline will not be found alive.
4. Madeline's dissapparance time is based on what the paretns said. I would like to interragate them. What if they have something to do with the kidnapping.. Other than than who else saw them leaving the restaraunt to see the children.
5. You are being rude. I have my times when i am frustirated up to my throat ... I like to challenge people and ask them "how do you know" or what makes you say that .. cause I do love to figure out people's thought process. HOWEVER, you shouldnt use this tone here esp to Draco.. you could have rephrased your view diferently maybe like "hey Draco, I am not 100% agreeing with you .. could you walk me through your thought of process"

Draco, dont blow your fuses over the arguments here..
not worth it..

be well
Tik
 
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Sagmoon

Well-known member
when people care and worry about an issue that's close to their heart, they sometimes clash between each other. maybe, deep inside, they're just a bit scared that no one else cares about it like they do (i'm not accusing, we all done that).. it is obvious that everything what was said, was said out of great pity to the girl's present fate...

please don't fight..

S
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Firstly draco, I am most sorry that I have come across as aggressive and maniacal...This is the first forum I have ever been in-I am new to computers...I don't know the etiquette of this online language yet- and i don't know how to do italics or quotes yet.I am a professional astrologer and I am more interested in the charts themselves than the non-astrological "opinions" of the members...I have probably managed to accidently inflame an already fragile situation so for that I unreservedly apologise to you ALL.However, on the other counts I intend to defend myself. What I mean re "the answer to the quest is always the answer to the quest. regardless of who asks it "etc: Let me explain myself more clearly:If Maddie is dead, how can any Radical chart show she is alive?? I have tested this extensively:For the last three years I have asked the same question in a horary style.It's been like a "test" i have set up. No matter when I ask, the answer is always a "NO"-even though the significators are different, moon in different signs etc-I have even tried asking at a time when i think the moon will show a favourable outcome (!).Always i get the same answer.This to me greatly validates the astrological process...If Maddie is dead ,and the chart is Radical,then it will show us that and only our lack of skill in interpreting the chart is the issue, whether it be a horary or an event. When Draco posted his interpretation I understood the Event was "the disappearance of Madelaine" rather than "the abduction" of madelaine-which had not been established at that time and has not yet been established..all we know is that the event that occurred was Maddie disappeared-and i think you did a superb interpretation of the chart Draco,as I said. Archergirl came across to me as being aggressive. I read the thread in one sitting- so I wasn't aware Archergirl had gone anywhere and assumed she was still participating.If A rchergirl is entitled to criticise people and bring personal politics into the forum I can't see why I am not entitled to respond to that..I am in fact aware..("get your googles on????)"... that a few people were postulating about the whereabouts of Madelaine's body...I was just suggesting a change of focus from the event of her disappearance to where the body is....I can't see why you are hoeing into me for that.Who said I wasn't working from a chart-just" reading everyone's threads..." I am working from a chart which incidentally coincides very closely with your findings Draco...I saw no need to complicate the site by adding in my chart when you have delineated yours so well and there was no actual disagreement between the findings...What I also did was regress the chart as the disappearance occurred before the time the event is cast..maddie may have been missing for a few hours before her parents discovered it.By regressing the chart in ten minute increments ( a very lengthy process) it may be possible to get the exact time she left the roomand the circumstances of her leaving...(ie was she taken? Did she leave alone? etc I only nmentioned the sleepwalking as an example of how she might have left- I haven't finished my work on the regressed charts yet-well that's what I've been working on anyway...But i really am sorry if you thought I was shouting- I had no idea that capitals meant that- i was just trying to emphasise...lillyjgc
 
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Draco

Well-known member
Hi Tik, ;)

Draco is a brilliant astrologer. one of the best i have seen

That is a very sweet thing to say. I am certain that I am far from being a brilliant astrologer but it instills confidence, so thankyou and thanks also for your support. x

Hi Sag.

when people care and worry about an issue that's close to their heart, they sometimes clash between each other. maybe, deep inside, they're just a bit scared that no one else cares about it like they do (i'm not accusing, we all done that).. it is obvious that everything what was said, was said out of great pity to the girl's present fate

Personally I do not claim to have a emotional investment in the disappearence of this child, nor do I pretend to. This is why I did not cast a horary upon the matter, because my mere curiosity is not enough to deliver a reliable judgement, half the time it will, but it will be by coincidence, and you cannot gain the same subtleby of interpretation from such a horary, everything will be askew.

Hi again Lilly.

Firstly draco, I am most sorry that I have come across as aggressive and maniacal

That's absolutely fine, it's already forgotten about.;)

i don't know how to do italics or quotes yet.

When you are typing up a post, you will see in the frame around the box in which you are typing a variety of buttons at the top. In the top left, you will see three letters, a 'B', an 'I' and a 'U'. These stand for 'Bold', 'Italic', and 'Underline', and if you highlight the text that you wish to modify, and the click on the appropriate button, than that text will be made bolder, italicised or underlined accordingly.

In order to quote, then if you scroll down the page, then you will see the record of posts in the thread in reverse order. If you wish to make a quote, then copy and paste the text that you seek to quote into your typing box, and then highlight this text. Now, having done this, look along the top of the frame surrounding the text box, and you will see that the fourth icon leading in from the left, is pale yellow, and shaped like a square speech bubble. If you now click on this button, your highlighted text will appear in your post as a quotation.

I am wondering if you know what 'copy and paste' is. I didn't want to explain this in case you do know and you think I am patronising you, but if you do not know, just ask.

Sorry if I was a little vehement in my earlier post. It is just that in every post I was making at the time, I seemed to be wrangling with somebody that appeared to be raving at me in block capitals, which to my mind, indicates shouting very loudly, and by time I got to your post, I'd had enough of it for one day. I was already especially angered by the audacity of Astro07, a newbie no less, who continues to ask me questions to which I have already provided sound answers and has not bothered to respect our rules here. If this was because there were certain parts of your post that you sought to emphasise, but didn't know how without the use of capitals, then this is understood, but you are now informed of how to alter your text without it appearing that you are having a maniacal fit. :rolleyes:

I am more interested in the charts themselves than the non-astrological "opinions" of the members

Indeed. I have made my stance upon horaries of this nature quite clear, however, as opinions differ, then it goes without saying that people may submit such charts here, offer their insights and then what others think about it.

This is what I asked of Astro, and yet very rudely, despite being linked to the rules for submitting a post to the horary forum, stuck a flagrant two fingers up at me, failed to absorb the reasoning I gave her upon what she was unclear about in the first place, and broke the rules a second time.

I wouldn't mind, but I only ask that she puts her money where her mouth is, and interprets her horary for us, so that we can then deliver our own input. I for one would be very interested to see how it is that she goes about the chart in the first place.

I do believe that it is the minority of posters on the thread that have submitted opinions without being alongside an analysis, and this was all I asked of Astro, as well as straightening out some of her apparent misunderstandings, but she has obviously failed to understand my point of view.

If Maddie is dead, how can any Radical chart show she is alive??

How do we then determine whether Futurists negative testimony or Astro's positive testimony is the chart with the correct answer? What criteria is it by which we determine which of these horaries cast by distant and uninvolved parties is to be considered superior?

It also depends upon your definition of the chart being radical, but for my part, if there is event data that can be worked with, then no horary is radical, for they are rendered obsolete in light of data that we can all reckon from in order to deduce our conclusions. Furthermore, if the querent does not have a personal interest in the matter, then the chart is also not therefore radical. So as I see it, both of these charts are not radical on these two counts.

This does not mean to say that should a person wish to post their horary upon this matter here, that I wish to stifle debate or even that I would not offer my own insights upon it should the chart be presented, but as long as all are clear that there are those of us, despite information we offer in order to assist others to interpret their own charts, that would hold the conviction that none of these charts are radical, in light of event datas and lack of personal interest on behalf of the querent.

I read the thread in one sitting- so I wasn't aware Archergirl had gone anywhere and assumed she was still participating.

Okay, I now understand this.

When Draco posted his interpretation I understood the Event was "the disappearance of Madelaine" rather than "the abduction" of madelaine-which had not been established at that time and has not yet been established

I do wish people would read my statements more carefully, as I have already repeated myself twice to Astro. :rolleyes:

Can we get this one straight once and for all?

The event chart that I worked with was not 'the disappearance of Madeleine' at all, and I never did say that it was. I did imply that there may have been a likelihood that the abduction would have took place with the latter degrees of Scorpio rising with the Moon on the ascendant, but this is about all I said, as far as the actual abduction (if it was indeed such), was concerned.

The event chart that I made a sketchy attempt at analysing was set for 22.00, the time widely reported to have been the time at which Madeleine's parents called the police, and it is from this chart that I made my deductions.

I hope I don't have to reiterate this point again.

that a few people were postulating about the whereabouts of Madelaine's body...I was just suggesting a change of focus from the event of her disappearance to where the body is

I felt that her body would be in water or the sea, or at least by or in a place associated with the water or sea, and I do believe that this was the conclusion of AquarianEssence as well. However, if she is dead we must be open to the possibility that the body may not be found, and so we may never know for sure.

Who said I wasn't working from a chart-just" reading everyone's threads..."

In fact, you did so:

I actually think, from reading everyone's threads, thatMasdelaine let herself out of her room- maybe sleepwalking
saw no need to complicate the site by adding in my chart when you have delineated yours so well and there was no actual disagreement between the findings

Please do feel free to post the chart if you wish. Don't feel put off by those who feel horaries are not radical where event data is available. We can still share our insights on these charts with you for your own interest, even if we do not consider them to be reliable personally. In fact, because I posted an event chart here and have explained my reasoning regarding the nature of such horaries as this, I do fear that I may have put people off posting horaries upon the matter, but this needn't be the case. This is after all the horary forum, but I felt that some event data should be included as it well pertains to the matter being discussed. However, I repeat, that where it appears appropriate to drag event charts in the horary boards, it suggests that the topic isn't best fit for horary.

What I also did was regress the chart as the disappearance occurred before the time the event is cast..maddie may have been missing for a few hours before her parents discovered it.By regressing the chart in ten minute increments ( a very lengthy process) it may be possible to get the exact time she left the roomand the circumstances of her leaving...(

This is interesting, how do you go about this?

Everyone keeps saying that I have done well with the chart, which is very nice of you to say, but it is impossible to determine unless we do eventually find out what happened.
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Thanks for your reply Draco..I am grateful that you have taken the time to explain what the icons are for and your very clear instructions...I will be attempting to utilise this new knowledge henceforth.I consider Event charts can be matters of public interest, not just of personal interest and I don't want to get too involved in a debate on this one aspect of a chart's radicality...In "the old days", astrologers were summoned to do charts for kings etc-how would their interest be personal and would their lack of personal investment render all the charts they had to do, invalid?Is not an astrologer an emissary for an individual , an agent, when looking at a chart for someone else? I work on an intuitive level to a certain extent, in that if I set the chart up, say a horary, and everything relevant is in or aspecting the relevant houses I will go with the flow even if there isn't every condition for radicality satisfied...(radical,hey???!) and delineate the chart anyway.By the time I have immersed myself in studying the chart for a few hours/days etc I do feel invested in it!By then I really want to know! (hey-it worked!)
What i did with this chart was use the 22:00 time as the timing of the Event. In my astrology program I am able to regress the chart, minute by minute and I use this technique to trace the movements of relevant planets to house cusps etc-My chart delineation is as long and involved as yours and sure, when I'm finally finished with it I am happy to post it but I fear we will all get bored...By regressing the chart I have come to the conclusion that the actual event of Madelaine leaving the scene happened at 20:53.The moon was at the anaretic degree in Scorpio posited on the asc. of the Event chart regressed to this time. Exact relationships abound in that chart and as I say when I am fully finished analysing it will post chart and essay if anyone is interested.
When we know what happened in factual terms we can go back to our charts to see why we have not arrived at the right answer- some will have, some won't have-Until we know the true facts we can't really "judge" anyone elses's conclusions-except on a technical basis.
Just so you know...(smile) what I meant when I said you did a good job on the chart (no- I wasn't kissing your butt!!) was that you seemed to obey the astrological rules, your explanation was clear, logical conclusions were drawn and nothing anomalous jumped out at me- and you obviously spent considerable time on it.As a chart delineation it had credibility (to me anyway) and concurred with my own conclusions...Venus was separating from a trine to neptune in my chart (child being woken up, dreaming? sleepwalking?)- so it isnt entirely preposterous to suggest that maddie may have left her room of her own volition...and then somebody took her on the spur of the moment.This isn't at odds with the police findings that the room wasnt broken into (left unlocked maybe?)and her sibling did not get woken up so maybe nothing unusual happened while M was in her room...this is just a theory I am looking into-I am not attached to any definite scenario at this point. To regress your chart.your astrology program might have an icon that says motion.On mine I can set a time increment of minutes hours days years etc (very handy) and you can then move charts back or forward in time- this can show what was leading up to the event and what will happen next -the context of the matter so to speak...I have found this method useful especially for getting the exact time of events when it isn't otherwise known (like this one).As the moon was separating from a square to Neptune maybe someone forgot to check on the kids....or lied about it....but this is an interesting case study because a lot of people are asking the question where is madelaine which very much makes it a matter of public interest which satisfies my definition of radicality... cheers, lillyjc
 

archergirl

Well-known member
If Archergirl is entitled to criticise people and bring personal politics into the forum I can't see why I am not entitled to respond to that..

Um, excuse me, I don't believe I was criticising any particular *person* anywhere in my posts. What I was criticising was the urge of human beings to cast a thousand horary charts for a very public event, which is folly and the worst sort of astrology, IMO. I was also pointing out something about the psychology of those who respond to public events with *horary* charts without giving due consideration to the fact that their charts will be rendered virtually obsolete. Just look at the thread! Whose is right?

If you have any faith in astrology then surely you will realise that it DOESN"T MATTER how many charts are done

Oh, yes it does. I have utter faith in astrology. Humans, however, are another story. We can all still learn about how to do horary better from reading all those charts, but I am not alone in my opinion that these should be viewed more like 'workbooks' than as accurate renderings.

Draco's decision to run with an event chart *for the time of the phone call* was a credit to horary astrology, and I would be far more inclined to discuss an event chart, which everyone can read without prejudice, than all those thousands of conflicting horary charts.

As for personal politics? C'mon. This is a forum for grownups.

Surely I should be allowed to express my dissent, and the reasons why I dissent, on a public *discussion* forum, where the object is to *discuss* astrology. Psychology plays a part in astrology, quite a big part, even in horary, and as I have an interest in psychology, surely I am allowed to bring my interests to the table, even if they are incompatible with the 'majority' view? If nothing is ever questioned, then nothing ever evolves beyond its current state of being. Being that this is a *discussion* forum, I don't feel that disagreement is necessarily a bad thing, if done in the interests of learning. My intent was not EVER to derail the discussion; my intent was to inject a bit of deeper thought into it.

That I disagree, however, with a thousand people casting charts for one little girl, and none for all the rest of the children who have gone missing before or since, doesn't stop anyone from casting charts, does it? My angle on this is that astrologers can *cast* a chart for any question they want; but *should* they? If one doesn't *think* about the reasons one is doing a chart, something crucial is likely to be missed. Like 1,000 other horary charts for the same question, for example.

Aggressive and sanctimonious? No, I just have my own views on things, and don't feel the need to punctuate every other sentence with a smiley face to assuage those of finer sensibilities. :rolleyes:

As it is, I've been preoccupied with an overseas move and so haven't had time to follow this as much as I'd like.

Best wishes,
AG:)
 
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