Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Dignities & debilities

Dignities & debilities Board for discussing planets in dignities and debilities in natal charts.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #126  
Unread 08-26-2013, 06:59 AM
poyi's Avatar
poyi poyi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,015
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
That is certainly possible: indeed this might be a factor in the absolute and unconditional statements often found in the ancient authors about such and such indications regarding such and such planets in such and such situations: the tendency to absolutist and unconditional declarations in oldtime literature, West and East, is decidedly present-perhaps the relative short span of life, particularly so during the Middle Ages, MIGHT have been something of a factor in some such absolutist/unconditional pronouncements during those olden times...an interesting thought!
Chinese astrologers overtime had changed the way they interpret the charts especially when it comes to reading for women. As in the past for a woman working, being known in the public, having multiple marriages, childless, in any case to be able to have her own income, having premarital sex all these are forbidden. In many cases, in the old time, the only possibility for a woman needed to work and go to the public that would either be working as a slave or prostitute. Women with honor and wealth, status were never allowed or needed to get out of the house.

So even today's Chinese astrologers still using the same old methods but the way they interpret female charts is entirely different. They would say a busy career women this day to be greatly dignified in the society.

Again unfortunately, since they never really published good quality books they like to keep the knowledge to their own little society to stay in power you could say. The only way to learn Chinese astrology is to actually have face to face classes by the Masters once you got accepted as disciple. So as a result I couldn't go further with the study of Chinese astrology.

__________________
I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery. --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Unread 08-29-2013, 01:50 PM
Andrea_'s Avatar
Andrea_ Andrea_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: fully tired of dry facts. Also, I live in a cupboard
Posts: 161
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Yes, Nodes would also be modified.
@ 0Capricorn58 your NN is still in the "0" degree of that sign, and would not be considered as in the pitted Capricorn 1-the planet (Lot or Node) must be in the specific elevated or pitted degree (or bright or dark degree) for the degree effect/modification, to be operative.
Oh Man, my Sun is at 1 58' degrees Capricorn, 12th House, but it conjuncts Jupiter at 2743' (so mine's near the Galatic Centre too!), but it is in Sagittarius and in the Twelfth House (so domicile + accidental dignity) plus they only conjuct each other and makes some semi-sextiles (with moon, venus, pluto and uranus) so what could this mean?

Could it possibly mean that the "pittied" effect of the degree is somewhat cancelled out by the well-positioned Jupiter? But then again, what does standing on the Galactic Centre mean? Does this bring a negative influence?

I have one of those charts without oppositions or squares (maybe only an almost 10 degree orb square betwen Jup and Saturn? and 4 semi-squares), but my life hasn't been that easy, and i went through so many, and i'm pretty down psychologically speaking. It is hard for me to put myself together, as i seem so feel everything around myself: oppresions, influences, bad or good things that affect me without discern sometimes (i can be pretty sensible to my environment!)
Although one thing i'm sure of: i create and handle my own life and whatever happens, i'm always the one who hurts myself, almost never others, or exterior circumstances.

Also, just being curious: what are the reasons taken into account that prompts one to call a degree elevated or pittied? Can an elevated degree also coincide with a beneficial fixed star? or with a non-beneficial star and so cancel it's supposedly good effect?

Last edited by Andrea_; 08-29-2013 at 02:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Unread 08-30-2013, 06:09 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Pitted (or elevated) state of a planet (or Lot) is only ONE of the factors to be considered in coming to a determination of the net status of that planet or Lot. Remember that the pitted state tends to minimize BOTH negative and positive expressions of the given planet in that pit, to lessen the intensity of that planet's expression of influences. And, the pitted degree tends to block or delay the full manifestation of the influences of the pitted planet (or Lot) in TIME.

No one knows (for certain) where the "celestial topography" came from: the pits and elevations of the degrees of the zodiacal circle appeared "full blown" (in the historical record at least) in the works of Antiochus of Athens, prior to 200 AD.
There is no equivalent "celestial topography" (pits and elevations) to be found in the Vedic or Chinese astrological systems.

In your specific example, I would interpret Sun @ 1:58 Capricorn as climbing out of its pit, and would attribute very little (indeed, if any) pitted influence upon the Sun, since it is within 2 minutes of being out of the pitted degree: pitted degree influences start from the first few seconds of the degree, and pretty much are overcome when the planet is in the last few minutes of the pitted degree.

Last edited by dr. farr; 08-30-2013 at 06:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
poyi (08-30-2013)
  #129  
Unread 11-04-2014, 09:25 PM
The Ram's Avatar
The Ram The Ram is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The outer limits
Posts: 413
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

I would say that these apply for the angles as well.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Unread 11-04-2014, 10:54 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 75,043
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ram View Post

I would say that these apply for the angles as well.

positive also raises this same idea
and wonders
Quote:
Originally Posted by positive View Post

But what if the axis AC DC or MC is on such degree.
This should be very uncomfortable.
especially AC DC should be very problematic then.
Or what is if other planets are making aspects on this points..
is it helpful or not so?
Does it affect the aspecting planet too?
HOWEVER

dr. farr responds

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

You will see in my posting of 10/24/10 in this thread,
that (to my understanding) the pits and peaks do NOT apply to asc, MC, house cusps,
but rather only to planets and points in space activated by planets
(ie, Parts/Lots; also it would likely apply to midpoints and antiscion as well)

Other degree qualities (light/neutral/dark, azimene)
DO apply to ascendant, MC, house cusps, etc,
but not the "celestial topography" of pits and peaks...

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Unread 11-05-2014, 09:43 PM
The Ram's Avatar
The Ram The Ram is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The outer limits
Posts: 413
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Yes, I read that and I would have to respectfully disagree with dr farr on that particular point.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Unread 11-05-2014, 10:26 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 75,043
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ram View Post

Yes, I read that
and
I would have to respectfully disagree with dr farr
on that particular point.

dr. farr is experiencing health issues currently
and not posting on the forum
so he is not able to debate the issue with you

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Unread 02-22-2016, 04:32 PM
Marcoilrosso's Avatar
Marcoilrosso Marcoilrosso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 314
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Can someone find any evidence of what placements in these degrees are supposed to mean?
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Unread 10-08-2016, 07:37 AM
intuitivepiscesmercury6's Avatar
intuitivepiscesmercury6 intuitivepiscesmercury6 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 41
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

"-these elevated or pitted degrees have no orbs (unlike the critical degrees)-the planet must be in the exact degree"

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been looking all around the internet for this information.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to intuitivepiscesmercury6 For This Useful Post:
leomoon (03-01-2020), stellamora (03-13-2017)
  #135  
Unread 02-18-2017, 03:43 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Thought I would refresh one of my old threads: this refers to the "celestial topography" of elevated and pitted degrees-I use these (I am not familiar with any of our contemporary traditionalist practitioners making use of them) and I find they are of some value as NUANCES modifying planets (and Lots) influences, both in analytical delineation and in predictive work.

The technical term for these elevated and pitted degrees (as well as for bright and dark/smokey degrees) is "MYRIOGENESIS", (first applied to these concepts during the Greco-Roman period), which means "a study of the single, individual degrees of the signs of the zodiac"...
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
david starling (03-13-2017), stellamora (03-13-2017)
  #136  
Unread 03-04-2017, 04:18 PM
AtlanticPacific's Avatar
AtlanticPacific AtlanticPacific is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Thank you Dr. Farr for reviving this very interesting thread. A clarification question - you mentioned that pitted planets that are retrograde are neutralized, and you also mentioned that pitted planets at critical degrees "shines forth from its pit". Which would prevail if both situations were in play? In other words, I have Venus at 22 degrees Scorpio (a critical degree from what I've gathered) which is also Retrograde and pitted. Would the sum effect be that it's neutralized? Many thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Unread 03-05-2017, 02:51 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Yes, pretty much the influences of Venus the would be largely impeded or delayed...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
AtlanticPacific (03-05-2017)
  #138  
Unread 03-13-2017, 02:44 PM
stellamora's Avatar
stellamora stellamora is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 55
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Wow. I have a one elevated degree. My sun 29' Taurus (I was actually concerned about this degree being conjunct really malefic fixed stars pleaides/alycone) something to do with -bad eyesight to which none of this has played out.-

Although now I feel a bit worried because my neptune sits in 27' Capricorn which is considered 'pitted' and I associate my neptune with my personal psychic development and because it's pitted I'm not sure how that's going to affect my process.. My neptune is also natally retrograde.
__________________
Astrological System:
I work with Sidereal Lahiri whole house sign

Last edited by stellamora; 03-13-2017 at 02:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Unread 03-14-2017, 02:58 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by stellamora View Post
Wow. I have a one elevated degree. My sun 29' Taurus (I was actually concerned about this degree being conjunct really malefic fixed stars pleaides/alycone) something to do with -bad eyesight to which none of this has played out.-

Although now I feel a bit worried because my neptune sits in 27' Capricorn which is considered 'pitted' and I associate my neptune with my personal psychic development and because it's pitted I'm not sure how that's going to affect my process.. My neptune is also natally retrograde.

Sun in an elevated degree eliminates most any malefic influence of the planet so posited. Neptune in a pitted degree means either an inhibition of the planet's influences, or equally it can mean a delay in the full development of that planet's influences, or that the full development of the pitted planet's influence will be an uphill struggle extended over time.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
stellamora (03-14-2017)
  #140  
Unread 03-14-2017, 09:14 AM
stellamora's Avatar
stellamora stellamora is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 55
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Well thank you very much! Big relief in concern to fixed stars
__________________
Astrological System:
I work with Sidereal Lahiri whole house sign
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Unread 03-15-2017, 02:48 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Couple other points:

Re to "bad eyes", "blindness", etc, especially in the older literature: please do not be a literalist when it comes to such terms: sure, it MIGHT be a literal vision trouble or bad eye, but MORE OFTEN we should take these terms as ANALOGIES: blindness, for example, means not being able to SEE what's right there in front of a person; "vision" by analogy can mean insight, seeing things in their real light, etc; so, when using the older literature (and especially the literature relating to the fixed stars) use ANALOGY in deciphering what the texts are saying, particularly relative to sight, eyes, blindness, and related terms.

Re to retrograde: Vedic astrology considers the powers of a planet INCREASED when it is retrograde; now, I do lean somewhat in this direction as well, but I also consider that a planet is "self-conflicted" when it is retrograde, meaning that although its powers might be increased, there is also difficulty of various types, connnected with that retrograde planet.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
AtlanticPacific (03-15-2017), tsmall (02-11-2018)
  #142  
Unread 02-10-2018, 03:17 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Refreshing this thread.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
Chrysalis (02-10-2018)
  #143  
Unread 02-10-2018, 01:40 PM
Chrysalis's Avatar
Chrysalis Chrysalis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Do not disturb
Posts: 7,083
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Refreshing this thread.
WOW Synchronicity or what...i am in awe here

I was literally just about to open a thread on this, and at the same time was wondering where you had got to, as i hadn't seen you around here for a little while, and its you who ive learnt these degrees from.

I had this link of yours copied ready to paste http://twilightstarsong.blogspot.co....egree.html?m=1

Anyway thanks for refreshing the thread, as i have some questions.

Ive been using these degrees in horary with success, i am now also referring to them nataly, but nataly for some reason im unclear as to how they play out.

A chart im looking at she has venus in capricorn @ 21 degrees, which places her venus in a pitted degree, her venus is also tightly conjunct saturn, so how would this pitted degree apply to her venus, as being conjunct saturn to me its debilitated enough, how would the DF degree further debilitate this venus of hers ?

Infact if i read through this thread, i may find my answer.

I wish Bob would come back too, i never got the chance to meet him.
__________________
Y@ur 3ner9y intr@duc3s 7ou B3fore y@u even sp3@k

Last edited by Chrysalis; 02-10-2018 at 01:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Unread 03-01-2020, 02:59 AM
leomoon's Avatar
leomoon leomoon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,851
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by intuitivepiscesmercury6 View Post
"-these elevated or pitted degrees have no orbs (unlike the critical degrees)-the planet must be in the exact degree"

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been looking all around the internet for this information.



THANKS for the quote, although I have no idea who said it, its good to know!
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Unread 03-01-2020, 04:43 AM
Bunraku's Avatar
Bunraku Bunraku is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 6,943
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Do these degrees not move over time or something? What's the underlying basis of these?
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Unread 03-01-2020, 05:02 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: clearing
Posts: 16,578
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

I've never used these before, apparently Bob Zemco was a proponent of them. Never seen a convincing demonstration of their usage either. I've always defaulted to the position that there is other things in the chart that explains a planet's effects.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Unread 03-01-2020, 05:19 AM
Bunraku's Avatar
Bunraku Bunraku is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 6,943
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

These things always bothered me. The usage of minor dignities/debilities somehow cancel out essential dignities/debilities, or come close to it. These must be pretty significant to massively influence a planet's trajectory in a chart.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Unread 03-01-2020, 05:30 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: clearing
Posts: 16,578
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

I've been leery of the straightforward dignity = good, debility = bad for a long while now. Enough charts has shown me as much.

It might not be the thread for it, but here is an example - strictly traditional analysis, too. http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/d...vid-carpenter/
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Unread 03-01-2020, 05:50 AM
Bunraku's Avatar
Bunraku Bunraku is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 6,943
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

Well that's interesting. Would this person be able to make the same type of analysis without the power of hindsight?

I never really thought dignities just meant good or bad, but several factors lumped together to make a decision if something is effective or not. Ptolemy never uses dignities just by itself, but also other conditions that helps us make the determination.

That's why I was concerned about where the pitted/elevated degrees fit in the ladder of strength.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Unread 03-01-2020, 06:02 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: clearing
Posts: 16,578
Re: Elevated and pitted degrees

It was more of a comment on what I've noticed with traditional practitioners, and when I say dignity I include the accidental kind in it, as well.

As to the determinations of the astrologer, maybe not, but the power of hindsight helps to falsify astrological axioms which I think is good for the art if it results in further refinements that make it more effective and powerfully predictive.

There is division on if maleficence is mitigated by dignity or not. Can't differentiate which of the old guys said what, but some seem to think that Mars and Saturn will have positive effects if in their signs and angular, while others prefer that they are in their signs but cadent.

I do like this individual's approach to chart interpretation though. Of the factors that he analyses, sign placement is only a minor factor, and not strong on it's own to make a judgement. This is at odds with both popular modern and traditional, since the former bases the majority of a planet's characteristic on the sign it's located in, while the latter judges a great deal of a planet's beneficence/power on if it is in it's house or an advantageous essential dignity.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
degrees, elevated, pitted

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Venus conj Mars - orb 0 degrees Sleeping Beauty Astrology and Psychology 1 10-05-2010 04:44 AM
Can an essentially dignified planet be lost when in the 12th house? Pallas-trine-Mars Dignities & debilities 3 09-14-2010 11:58 PM
Help on horary technique please! 23 Horary Questions on Relational Issues 18 08-26-2010 07:52 AM



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.