There has to be a way to talk about Grand Trines!

Silversong

Well-known member
Hello AstroWeekly,

I must have tried to write this post over two weeks, and I just can't figure out a way to write it down. So I am just going to spill. *breathes in*

Isn't there a way for me to talk about Grand Trines without making the whole thread about my chart? I am just concerned about being born into comfortable mediocrity, but at the same time, I wonder if that's what it's like for other people with Grand Trines.

The planets definitely have to matter, but I would rather ask about the different elements of each grand trine. I have a water grand trine- and that's not turned out to be so great. I mean, as far as my lived experience has gone, I vacillate quite a bit emotionally, but usually settle around a medium that I don't particularly care for.

But what about the other elements? What are the markers of a person with fire or air grand trine? There has to be a difference between having all inner planets in the trine and when there is one or two outer planets.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Comfortable mediocrity... I wonder what we mean by that.
And by the way, congratulations on not making the discussion "all about you." Thanks.

Let's begin the discussion about the comfortably mediocre grand trine with a concrete example. Let's look at the chart of Bobby Fischer, the world chess champion. This chart has a perfect Locomotive pattern, i.e., the entire chart is built around, structured on, a partile grand trine in Air. I equate Pattern of the Chart = Pattern of the Personality = Pattern of the Destiny. or "What you see is what you get."

We have 5 planets in Air, to bolster the already structurally prominent grand trine. Look at the orbs between Mars, Uranus and Neptune... although there is a slight incursion by Neptune into the Second Degree, both Mars and Uranus are partile by degree and minute, and Neptune is only distant by 5' of arc: a partile grand trine, and all of the planets are included in two arms of the formation with the third arm empty. Here is a chart without equal for the study of the grand trine as defining the pattern of the life.

We also notice that Mercury and Uranus are in a 3-degree applying square. But the square is unusual in that, instead of emphasizing the Mode of the planets as is the normal case, what is emphasized by this square is the Air Element...Gemini is in Aquarius, Uranus in Gemini. These two planets are in mutual disposition of the chart: Fischer's IQ was measured during his high school days at around 185. Air is symbolic of "intellect" or "living through mental constructs in one's mind." [I normally use the traditional 7 planets as sign lords, but here Saturn -- lord of Aquarius -- is weakly aspected when compared to Uranus and his conjunction to that planet is separating and continues moving away by progression, while Uranus is brought to prominence in many ways, in particular his participation in the partile grand trine...so I give Uranus dominion in Aquarius here.]

Air is characterized as the thinking type (Jungian terminology). It connects facts, is objective and detached. The emphasis is on abstract thought, theory and ideas. Consciousness is directed at the most logical approach to life problems. This type is typically capable of very quick adjustment to changing conditions. Sails are trimmed and a new tack taken with every change in the wind. The course toward the main goal is maintained through constant tactical zigzaging. There is apt to be great volatility, an exaggerated flexibility that carried to its extreme is an instability of character. Air is rational, and when over-emphasized (the case in Fischer's chart...his life is structured on the trine formation, there is preponderance by element, and the chart is mutually disposed by planets in Air) tends to be cold and unfeeling. The person is inclined to force life into a mold of rigid formulas, motives and concepts devoid of feeling. Feelings, for the person with an over-emphasis of Air, is a minefield. Thought is valued for and of itself; there is little concern for the practical value of the thoughts as applied to reality, with self-satisfaction or approval being gained by the beauty and elegance of the thought-structure itself. His thought world is his reality. Air must continually validate its own existence by challenging and testing its theories against life. It seeks a continual reassurance, often and of necessity at the expense of others. Air is adroit at dealing with meaning, significance and implication. There is an exceptionally quick and facile ability to see the relationships among things.

When a planetary formation, and even more the whole-chart, is composed of very tight-orbed connections, life tends toward a compulsive and narrow expression. The tight orbs leave little "wiggle-room". Here the grand trine defining the whole-chart pattern (the personality and life-path) is partile to within 5 minutes of arc.

A good resource for understanding the functions and importance of the Elements and Qualities in horoscopy is found in Karen Hamaker-Zondag's The Elements and Crosses as the Basis of the Horoscope.

The characterization of a grand trine as inducing a comfortable mediocrity is made questionable by Fischer's chart. There was nothing mediocre about the man as he confronted an opponent across a chess board. He was, however, totally at a loss in any normal relationship with other people.

When analyzing a grand trine, look for the planet that beholds a square to a planet outside the trine. The aspect can excite the trine and move it away from its comfortable stasis. In Fischer's chart, Mars is the predominant planet, the motivating force in the chart. He is the leading planet in the whole-chart Locomotive pattern, is partile conjunct the horizon, disposes Venus who is partile conjunct the MC, and is participant in the Fixed T-square focused on his mother, the Moon...while opposed to Pluto at the Ascendant. The Air trine tells us that Feelings are difficult for this man, and the Moon at the apex of the Fixed cross confirms and reemphasizes this. Fischer had the delightful temperament of a shark. He once said that the high point, for him, in a game of chess was the moment he realized that he had destroyed his opponent's ego...the 7th House (Mars conjunct the Dsc) symbolizes "competition at the highest levels." Mars opposes Pluto.

I know I haven't fully answered your questions, but I don't feel like writing a book tonight. Hope this helps.
 

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Arena

Well-known member
The Magi Society uses grand trines and conjunctions as best possible geometry in a chart... but it does depend on the planets involved... if Saturn or Mars are involved in such configuration it can mean lots of trouble.

You can read a part of their book as pdf online for free.
The orb used for those configurations is 3-4 degrees at most.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Hello AstroWeekly,

I must have tried to write this post over two weeks, and I just can't figure out a way to write it down. So I am just going to spill. *breathes in*

Isn't there a way for me to talk about Grand Trines without making the whole thread about my chart? I am just concerned about being born into comfortable mediocrity, but at the same time, I wonder if that's what it's like for other people with Grand Trines.

The planets definitely have to matter, but I would rather ask about the different elements of each grand trine. I have a water grand trine- and that's not turned out to be so great. I mean, as far as my lived experience has gone, I vacillate quite a bit emotionally, but usually settle around a medium that I don't particularly care for.

But what about the other elements? What are the markers of a person with fire or air grand trine? There has to be a difference between having all inner planets in the trine and when there is one or two outer planets.

I can't top greybeard's example and explanation (and wouldn't want to even if I could.) I too have what is known as a grand trine, in Earth, between Venus in Virgo, Mars in Capricorn, and retrograde Saturn in Taurus. Reading that "the grand trine suggests laziness regarding the engery, tends to not use or develop the energy/talent" is part of what led me to studying traditional astrology. What I found is that my grand trine in Earth isn't going to be the same as someone else's grand trine in Earth. And as greybeard pointed out, the pivotal planet in my case (Mars in the 3rd sign/4th house) is also involved in a heavy square to Sun (partile) along with Mercury and Jupiter in Libra, as well as an applying square to Moon (out of sign, as Moon is in the last degrees of Pisces.) I believe I have a seesaw chart, lol, not that I know much about those things. If we are to confine it to psychology, I have a lot of Air (smart, good student, think my way out of things) opposing a hugely emotional Moon (which all that air hates but there you have it--only traditional planet in water) so when life gets too overwhelming I plant stuff in my garden. :wink:

I suppose my only contribution would be to say that it is, and always will be necessary to break down each aspect pattern by the condition of the planets involved, whether or not the aspects are applying or separating, and a whole slew of other things that you can't get from generalizations of "grand trines tend toward mediocrity and lazy energy."
 

RodJM

Well-known member
Does this discussion about GTs involve only planets? what about if the moon's nodal axis is involved?
 

greybeard

Well-known member
The grand trine is a planetary formation. Thus (in my usage) only planets may participate.

And bravo for TSmall's comments. Each grand trine, or any other planetary formation, must be considered on its own merits. Generalizations don't work too well. The main thing about grand trines in general is their emphasis on a single element. That element tends to dominate the personality (depends on the strength of the trine relative to the rest of the chart, and all the stuff TSmall mentions and then some) and the person may find themselves in an elemental rut (because trines are the path of least resistance, the favored psychological orientation). I too have a grand trine in Air, coupled with a preponderance of Air, both Lights in Air... am a "thinker." And sometimes don't "get it" when it comes to feelings. "Hey, let's be logical. Feelings get in the way."

Something I notice in this forum, as far as the way people approach chart analysis, is that too little attention is paid to preponderance of Element and Quality. These things are powerfully influential and foundational in a person's makeup. The planets, individually, are subject to preponderances in the chart, all the many different kinds of preponderance -- not just Element and Quality. A preponderance is "measured" by looking at the chart as a whole -- it looks at the personality as a whole -- and assesses psychological weights of different factors ... so that individual elements of personality (the planets) are subject to them because that preponderance "carries more weight." A preponderance shows a preponderant psychological tendency that affects the entire being, one which influences the person on a deep and fundamental level. Their power in the personality should not be underestimated.

By assessing preponderance in a chart we learn a great deal about a person, and this gives us solid guidelines on which to base our interpretation. Bobby Fischer's heavy Air preponderance (the whole structure of the chart is built around Air) describes his fundamental intellectual/impersonal/detached/objective/rational/cold nature, something which any evaluation of his life as it was lived brings to the fore. The preponderance is overpowering and affects every other aspect of his life. It is then focused through Mars, which is far and away (Uranus too) the most powerful planet in the chart. [there are lots of other points of power in the chart, but Mars is still predominant as the channel of expression.]

In my own chart there are preponderances of: Air, Fixity, Retrogradation, House Triad, House Cross, Aspect type.... by the time we interpret these preponderances -- and before actually evaluating any planet -- we have a very comprehensive portrait of the person. These preponderances condition every other factor in the chart because they are determined by whole-chart rather than individual elements of the chart. They are deeper, more basic than any individual factor. They describe the matrix or underlayment through which the more individual features must be expressed.

If a chart shows a grand trine in Water, or more importantly and powerfully, a preponderance in that Element, then we know that the life is guided by Feelings and all that that implies. Those implications go broad and deep and affect all else in the personality. Before ever interpreting any particular planet, we have a very good dossier of the person, and any particular planet will be strongly influenced in its operation by Feelings.

Some charts have no preponderance at all. This is just as meaningful as a chart such as mine where there are an exceptional number of preponderances. The first is "unconditioned", the latter "highly conditioned."
 

Silversong

Well-known member
Thank you for replying everyone! I am a slow writer, but I definitely appreciate your contributions and am writing my replies! :happy:
 

Silversong

Well-known member
Hello Greybeard!

I have the impression that your thanks comes with a heavy dose of sarcasm, but I really did want to have a general conversation, so I thank you for responding. :sideways:

What I meant by "comfortably mediocre" is that, I see my life as stuck in a hole- but I feel just comfortable enough in there that I make no real effort to escape it. While there are things to which I could aspire to in my life, nothing moves me enough to inspire me not to keep on the same track that I've been on for the last ten or so years, despite my dissatisfaction with it. And considering that narrative about Grand Trines promoting the path of least resistance in a person's choices, I figured I should ask and see what other people have to say about it, because that's uncomfortably applicable to me.

"Here is a chart without equal for the study of the grand trine as defining the pattern of the life." That's what I'm talking about! Thank you- and at Air Grand Trine at that!

"When a planetary formation, and even more the whole-chart, is composed of very tight-orbed connections, life tends toward a compulsive and narrow expression. The tight orbs leave little "wiggle-room". Here the grand trine defining the whole-chart pattern (the personality and life-path) is partile to within 5 minutes of arc."

See, statements like that that come from more general-focus discussions are often the gems I love to find in talking astrology. :happy:

"The characterization of a grand trine as inducing a comfortable mediocrity is made questionable by Fischer's chart. There was nothing mediocre about the man as he confronted an opponent across a chess board."

*ducks head* I idly suspected that this wasn't something that necessarily affected everyone possesing a grand trine, and certainly not ones in Air or Fire... And (because I skimmed everyone's posts before coming back now to properly respond), this drives home TSmall's point about how everyone's Grand Trine works for them differently. Oy, it makes me feel even worse about mine. Just sitting there and being nothing special. *sigh*

(By the way, getting a copy of that book would be a little too expensive for me right now, but I appreciate the recommendation. )

And I notice another very interesting coincidence (because that's really all it is): The planet in Fisher's chart that reaches outside his grand trine is Mars. The planet for TSmall that reaches outside the grand trine is Mars. For me also, Mars is the only one that makes the square outside of the grand trine. There isn't anything that I'm getting at there, but I still think it's cool. :sideways:
 

Silversong

Well-known member
I suppose my only contribution would be to say that it is, and always will be necessary to break down each aspect pattern by the condition of the planets involved, whether or not the aspects are applying or separating, and a whole slew of other things that you can't get from generalizations of "grand trines tend toward mediocrity and lazy energy."

Thank you so much for commenting, TSmall!

*sigh* This has been shown to me time and time again on other thread of mine, but I still try to encourage conversation amongst people here somehow! ^_^;; But yea, whatever I dislike about my Trine is not necesaary likely to relate to anyone else with a Grand Trine and an interest in talking about it, eh? :lol:
 

RodJM

Well-known member
The grand trine is a planetary formation. Thus (in my usage) only planets may participate.

I disagree wholeheartedly, are you saying that critical points like Asc, MC, etc, should not be taken in account when one defines what is and what's not a grand trine? Sounds like your cherry picking aspect patterns like grand trines so they only fit planetary entities. A grand trine is a grand trine, it is a balanced mathematical relationship between 3 points or places in the horoscope. All of which have importance in understanding the delineation of a natal chart. How can you dismiss critical points like the ones I mentioned above for example?

It's like your saying planet X trines the MC, but its not important in delineating because its the MC...
 
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Zarathu

Account Closed
I disagree wholeheartedly, are you saying that critical points like Asc, MC, etc, should not be taken in account when one defines what is and what's not a grand trine? Sounds like your cherry picking aspect patterns like grand trines so they only fit planetary entities. A grand trine is a grand trine, it is a balanced mathematical relationship between 3 points or places in the horoscope. All of which have importance in understanding the delineation of a natal chart. How can you dismiss critical points like the ones I mentioned above for example?

I'm afraid I have to agree with Greybeard.

Its not a balanced mathematical relationship between points. Its a locked in relationship between three major sources of energy in a chart.

I find that its a major representation of cognitive structure, in the impact of how we think, using the cerebral cortex.

Anything other than planets doesn't provide a basic level of energy.

To bring the ASC into the package is to bring the starting impact(not an energy but a beginning point of life, please study the concept of complexity/chaos theory in the volume listed below) of the hind brain, or reptile brain into the context of the abstract thinking brain, which is completely counter productive in this context. In Complexity theory, this is called Sensitive Dependence on Initial Conditions(SDIC). The ASC is not an energy, it is a representation of Initial Conditions Dictating the Unfolding Pattern of a Life. The MH is a similar though less significant SDIC for the Fourth Quadrant.

As such, in Complexity Theory , it is one of the many Phase Portraits which are described as an image of attractors, basins, and flexibility of a pattern which can be used to predict the times and qualities of changes to the pattern.

While these are critical points, they are not energy generators, they are just points in the chart, abstractly in space.

This is my opinion of course. However, in my case, it is based on considerable research on the Astrology of Consciousness.

For more information about the relationship of Complexity Theory to Astrology, please read Astrology: A Place in Chaos by Bernadette Brady, the Wessex Astrologer, 2006(ISBN # 1902405218) The Zarathu/Huber/Wescott Model of the Astrology Brain Consciousness© is a complex interaction of many factors including expositions by Zarathu, Bruno Huber, and Martha Lang -Wescott, and is currently volume 3 in a Seven Volume set entitled, The Seven Quotients of Psychological Astrology©
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
You are welcome to your theories, practices and beliefs Rod.

A grand trine, from my position, is a Planetary formation.
Abstract points are fundamentally different in nature from planets.

The Angles (Asc, MC, etc.) and the lunar nodes are very powerful, important points in a chart....but they are not Focii of Concentrated Energy, which is what planets are.

The Ascendant, the primary point in any chart, represents the (Sensitive Dependence on) Initial Conditions in the life, as Zarathu points out. That is a term from modern science which you can investigate online. As an astrologer, I term the Ascendant "The Point of All Beginnings". Same thing.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
this drives home TSmall's point about how everyone's Grand Trine works for them differently. Oy, it makes me feel even worse about mine. Just sitting there and being nothing special.

Do you ever give family or friends a jocular push or heavy shove in the back to attract their attention? The 'Aw; come on. It's more than that.'

The same can be said for the grand trine. Its greatest fault is that it provides a comfortable niche that is in need of the boost of a kick up the rear end to ADD to its value. This can only come from an alternate element.

As a grand trine in Earth, I'll speak to your grand trine in water through your 'special' imaginative side.:smile:
Is water (depth of feeling) always the same ? Does it always remain cool, calm and stagnant in every every situation. In terms of shifting and movement, is the water that runs from your tap the same as the water confined within a lake's boundaries is the same as the water of the vastness of the ocean?

What does Fire (spirit) do when interacting with water? Does Fire heat water into action, or does too much water distinguish Fire's warmth of enthusiasm.
How does Earth (physical manifestation) help water? Does it provide a means to give it a substantial form in realistic terms, or does too much water turn the Earth into a soggy mud pool that sticks and stifles all it physically touches.
What effect does Air(mentality) have upon water? The calmest breeze will cause a motion that gets it moving and change its direction. Air and water are the two elements that can move in, out, through, and around anything without encumberment.

It's the 'other elements' that provide the push to grand trine configurations. Each is there to assist the other. With such an emotional quality within you, what active enthusiasm do you show and take when an idea or thought comes to mind that you would like to see physically realised to improve the status of your imaginative ability? OR; does it feel to be the outer manifestation through circumstances with others that either instigate or withhold the nature of the water's further flow?
 

RodJM

Well-known member
You are welcome to your theories, practices and beliefs Rod.

A grand trine, from my position, is a Planetary formation.
Abstract points are fundamentally different in nature from planets.

The Angles (Asc, MC, etc.) and the lunar nodes are very powerful, important points in a chart....but they are not Focii of Concentrated Energy, which is what planets are.

The Ascendant, the primary point in any chart, represents the (Sensitive Dependence on) Initial Conditions in the life, as Zarathu points out. That is a term from modern science which you can investigate online. As an astrologer, I term the Ascendant "The Point of All Beginnings". Same thing.

So we agree to disagree? all's good and fine then. :)
There are many different takes or views on astrology in general and this just reminds me why I became so disillusioned with it all some 20 years ago.. only to be curious about it all again but from the sidereal school of approaching this.
 

RodJM

Well-known member
I'm afraid I have to agree with Greybeard.

Its not a balanced mathematical relationship between points. Its a locked in relationship between three major sources of energy in a chart.

[/QUOTE]

Any number between 1 - 12 divided by 360, its result is dealt to be a geometrical aspect in the natal chart, so in my opinion its "balanced". Perhaps I should have been clearer in my previous post. I do apologise for that.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
I'm afraid I have to agree with Greybeard.

Its not a balanced mathematical relationship between points. Its a locked in relationship between three major sources of energy in a chart.

[/QUOTE]

Any number between 1 - 12 divided by 360, its result is dealt to be a geometrical aspect in the natal chart, so in my opinion its "balanced". Perhaps I should have been clearer in my previous post. I do apologise for that.

I'm sorry. You've completely missed my point.
 

RodJM

Well-known member
Its not a balanced mathematical relationship between points. Its a locked in relationship between three major sources of energy in a chart.

Any number between 1 - 12 divided by 360, its result is dealt to be a geometrical aspect in the natal chart, so in my opinion its "balanced". Perhaps I should have been clearer in my previous post. I do apologise for that.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Any number between 1 - 12 divided by 360, its result is dealt to be a geometrical aspect in the natal chart, so in my opinion its "balanced". Perhaps I should have been clearer in my previous post. I do apologise for that.

I'm sorry. But you have completely and irrevocably missed my point.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
I agree with Rod as well. While a planetary-only grand trine will have more power in general, I don't discount at all the impact of a grand trine involving other points. While the ASC does not generate energy of its own, it RECEIVES a great deal of energy from the outside. It may not be your own self-created energy, but it is energy nonetheless. A fire is a fire whether started by lightning on dry brush, a rock rolling down a hill and throwing sparks, or throwing a match on a gasoline soaked pile of wood.
I have a grand trine involving such points - Venus-Vertex-Pallas, 2-6-10th house. I've always had major life events structured around the karmic relationships, jobs and solutions that just fall into my lap at fortuitous moments; the actions I take in resolving these events have shaped the entire path of my life. I don't have to work to create these events, they just "happen" when they need to happen. I definitely feel and see the actions of this grand trine.
 
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