Nuance Practice- Mind Edition

Silversong said:

[As an aside, what are Witte Sensitive points? Do they affect all of the planets in a person's chart, or are they like asteroids, where they are only a consideration when a planet is conjunct one? I looked on your site, but there wasn't any info on it just yet...]

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There are more than 1000 Witte sensitive points in every chart with a separate meaning for all of them. You you at the degree measure and find a planet adteroid or just the point to find the meaning.

Silversong said:

It almost sounds like I'm basically going to be boxed in by my squares and oppositions... And that I won't even see the boundary lines drawn by my oppositions. I guess that sounds about right. I can't even speak to how hard it could get either, because I feel like I haven't been shoved into having to resolve my squares yet (thank god ), like you said.

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That's not true. You need to spend a bit of time explroing the meanng of the aspects themselves.

Squares simply mean that there is an obtacle in front of you that hard work will fix.

Oppositions mean that there is an obstacle, but that you will have to charge something basically about you look at it. You can't just work through it, or climb it, you have to change to solve it. This is why its often described as push pull because when you push at it like a square it pushes back.



It almost sounds like I'm basically going to be boxed in by my squares and oppositions... And that I won't even see the boundary lines drawn by my oppositions. I guess that sounds about right. I can't even speak to how hard it could get either, because I feel like I haven't been shoved into having to resolve my squares yet (thank god ), like you said.
[/QUOTE]

That's not true. You need to spend a bit of time explroing the meanng of the aspects themselves.

Squares simply mean that there is an obtacle in front of you that hard work will fix.

Silversong said:

I have to say, there is a cryptic-ness to your paragraph about my complex aspect patterns that really made it jump out at me:

Grand Trines keep me from making proper actions? Personal development-wise, right? Doesn't that put them in a sort of direct energy opposition with my squares? ...Though there is also the matter of the strength each aspect has, right? But even amongst my strongest aspects, there seems to be deadlock.

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Grand trines are restrictive trines. The keep you enclosed.
Thay have the following characterisitcs:

1. don’t motivate you to struggle,

2. tend to make you choose what is the easy way,

3. tend to make you choose the self gratification way,

4. Tend to repeatedly ignoreof self-discipline, and ignoring of responsibilities in life

5. tend to keep self unmotivated to surpass any existing talents or skills

6. easily defeated by the rigors of life

7. Moon, Venus, Jupiter, and Neptune in the trine can make it worse because of their nature for excess

8. Mars, Saturn, Uranus, and sometimes Pluto in the trine tend to be too active to allow the complacency of a grand trine from making it worse

9. Sometiems the personal needs are often provided by the people and situations of his life, and the person doesn't every strike out on his/her ownb

Silversong said:

Just to be clear, in regard to my T-square, you are saying that I would actually be likely to resolve the oppositions involved because their mutual squares will force the issues related to them? I hope I don't sound like a parrot, but I was having some trouble trying to tell if I understood this part and I wanted to check with you.

Also...I have a yod? I thought that I had only one quincunx at all. Could you please point out the planets involved? Maybe I was being too strict with orb allowance again....

This is already such a full plate that I don't think I can handle talking about asteroids, but thank you for pointing out what role Psyche plays. It's actually been hard to find straight answers about what they mean- at least, without buying books. But I digress.


I would appreciate reading your suggestions very much, actually- particularly about my aspect patterns and how the squares and trines face off in my chart. Also, I want to apologize about being so slow with my posts. I'm a slow writer in general, but my schedule also keeps me from being as quick to keep up the conversation.

Also, I'm glad that this conversation lead to me learning a bit about your seven quotients, Zarathu. I think its pretty cool to synthesize astrology and psychology.

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More of this requires a description of your actual chart rather than a piecemeal. Do you want that?

Zarathu said:

Grand trines are restrictive trines. The keep you enclosed.
Thay have the following characterisitcs:

1. don’t motivate you to struggle,

2. tend to make you choose what is the easy way,

3. tend to make you choose the self gratification way,

4. Tend to repeatedly ignore self-discipline, and ignoring of responsibilities in life

5. tend to keep self unmotivated to surpass any existing talents or skills

6. easily defeated by the rigors of life

7. Moon, Venus, Jupiter, and Neptune in the trine can make it worse because of their nature for excess

8. Mars, Saturn, Uranus, and sometimes Pluto in the trine tend to be too active to allow the complacency of a grand trine from making it worse

9. Sometimes the personal needs are often provided by the people and situations of his life, and the person doesn't every strike out on his/her own

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This is damnably accurate. This is, in a general sense, how I am in life (when I look at my life in terms of behavioral trends rather than a collection of events, I suppose)- and part of the reason why I'd become so preoccupied with trying to figure myself out. I was afraid of these traits being all there was to me- on some level, I still am, I guess. I guess I could be grateful for Mars and Pluto being involved, then, eh?

Zarathu said:

More of this requires a description of your actual chart rather than a piecemeal. Do you want that?

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It looks like you are giving me another chance to reconsider non-surface level exploration of my chart. That gave me pause and makes me curious- are you referring to the public dissection of my chart as a personal deterrent (I won't pretend that it's comfortable for me to get very far beneath the surface where anyone can see- but this is stuff I really want to know, and I don't think I can learn it anywhere else right now), or that I might not really want to face what my chart says about me? I can understand that latter possibility- but I really prefer to cut deep when I get the chance. It feels more real to me, anyhow. It's something I appreciate, really- it gets hard to hear about just the nice things sometimes.


If I could, however, ask you to PM me with regards to anything sensitive? I'd really appreciate it.

I certainly have experienced the Grand Trine very differently in my life...Yes I have often felt defeated by the rigours of life, but not for lack of trying...I am always struggling with the other challenges in my astro set-up; I am very self-disciplined and am well aware of my responsibilities in life...my struggle for survival keeps me very active and motivated; I never look to take the easy way out...it is a bit irresponsible IMO, to describe any aspect as being only one-sided; all can have positive and negative features and it is the same as saying all hard aspects are bad, which is not true either...
Since the word is formed by the TRINITY, this speaks to me right away as having to do with the gaining of balance in life [mind/body/Soul] and in my experience has motivated me towards greater spiritual awareness; I have also experienced an experience of immersion, where for several weeks I felt under a sense of Grace and Gratitude. Perhaps though it is because of mine being in the water triad .I personally do not see intense negativity with the trine, considering the symbolic representation of the triangle. It certainly has increased my sense of faith, and that's why I look at it as a potential mark of divine intervention when we need it most

Silversong said:

.....are you referring to the public dissection of my chart as a personal deterrent (I won't pretend that it's comfortable for me to get very far beneath the surface where anyone can see- but this is stuff I really want to know, and I don't think I can learn it anywhere else right now), or that I might not really want to face what my chart says about me?

I can understand that latter possibility- but I really prefer to cut deep when I get the chance. It feels more real to me, anyhow. It's something I appreciate, really- it gets hard to hear about just the nice things sometimes.


If I could, however, ask you to PM me with regards to anything sensitive? I'd really appreciate it.

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Generally my experience of a professional counseling career of 40 years, is that almost nobody really wants to hear anything but wonderful things about themselves.

People don't want to change their behavior, or their views of themselves, or the things that are actually stopping them from success. And again, they want to hear about how wonderful they are. They will tend to gravitate to astrologers who are willing to tell them how wonderful they are, and I see it often here on AC. I will present options to discover their real issues, and someone else will offer a way to find out how wonderful they really are, and my posts will be totally ignored. This is despite the fact that everyone knows that its not the wonderful parts of us that cause us the trouble in life, its the hard parts that we need to work on.

And when I see someone who is very very interested in learning all kinds of things but at the same time has an insular Grand trine, I tend to need to ask again and again as to whether they really want to pursue it. After all, these are really things best left to pursuit in private with a profesisonal therapist or your clergyman(if s/he is so trained and not trying to get you to be "saved" in his own theological way at all costs).

The problem for me is that I find it difficult to offer extended private consultations for a number of reasons, not the least of which that this is a forum and not a private internet counseling service(if there is such a thing actually). I've offered to do that and find it disagreeable. This I know is for two reasons: (1) I understand what a counseling relationship has to consist, and an interaction on line is not a counseling relationship, (2) I really enjoy both the sharing of communication across different people, as well as the need to "teach" really how to do astrology at a complex professional level.

I'm not sure that this answers your question.

Since your original Question was whether astrology could define thinking, and I divurged to showing some of how it oculd be done for you, it occurs to me that a broader understanding of it might be worthwhile.

Since that broader understanding is represented by the 3rd Quotient of The Seven Quotients of Counseling Astrology©, and is more than 1600 pages long in its own right, I thought it might be worthwhile to give you the table of Contents of this section of the book:


I. Brain Systems
A. The Reptilian Brain: Instinct
1. Adaptations to New Conditions
2. Ascendant Position in Signs
3. Ascendant in relation to other planets, sensitive points, Sabian
and
Charubel points
4. Psyche in Aspect to the Ascendant
B. The Limbic system: Security
1. Impact of the Moon
2. Position of the Moon in Signs
3. Psyche in Aspect to the Moon
C. The Cortex: Thinking
1. The Planets of Cognition
a. Mercury: collecting information and putting it in places to
develop, augment or denigrate patterns
b. Saturn: consolidation of information about the world into
patterns
c. Jupiter: Use of personal observation and trial and error as
a part of modification of patterns of perception
2. Psyche in aspect to the planets and other asteroids
3. Other Asteroids of Cognition
a. Orpheus
b. Sisyphus
c. Persephone
d. Siva
e. Tantalus
f. Tisiphone
g. Ophelia
h. Nemesis
i. Klotho
j. Lachesis
k. Atropos
l. Hybris
m. Hephaistos
n. Child
o. Astrea
p. Amor
q. Admetos
4. Dangers of dominance of one planetary plantet of cognition over
another
II. Ruling Planets of Cognition
A. Mercury
B. The Moon
C. Venus
D. Mars
E. Jupiter
F. Saturn
G. Uranus
H. Neptune
I. The Sun
J. Psyche
K. Dark Moon Lilith


III. Houses, Signs, and Aspects in Cognitive Function

IV. Modifiers of Evalatuive Cognition through Aspect Structures
A. Evolved patterns: the Sun-Moon Blend
B. Geometiric Structure in the chart
1. Grand Trines
2. Grand Sextiles
3. Grand Squares
4. The T-Square
5. The YOD
C. Obvious Groupings
1. Excessive Sextiles
2. No oppositions
3. No Squares
4. Excessive Squares
5. Excessive oppositions
6. Excessive inconjuncts
D. Charting groups
1. Bowls
2. Stelliums
V. The Thought Axis House patterns

VI. Sign Quality Patterns

VII. Sign Temperament Patterns

VIII. The Sub Concscious

IX. Disorders of Cognition
A. Borderline personality disorder
B. Schizophrenia
C. Bi-polar Disorder
D. Paranoia

Hi Zarathu.

Zarathu said:

Generally my experience of a professional counseling career of 40 years, is that almost nobody really wants to hear anything but wonderful things about themselves.

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I do identify well enough with your description of Grand Trine owners to find it annoying (because it describes what I call personal entropy- something that I have had concerns about for some time), but I am still asking you to share some insight with me. I am still here, busy as I get these days. I am still asking for help. And while I understand you not wanting to waste your time when you think it will be wasted, isn't whatever response I have to the information you share on me? I want to know the bad things- I know that they are there, but I don't have the words to put to them. Since you know my chart better than I do, being a practiced astrologer, you can actually point things out to me than I may only have been peripherally conscious of. Your hesitating this much makes it seem like you are positive that I can't handle it, but that's not really for you to determine, isn't it? I am here to understand myself. And when I think about it, the fact that I am not specifically asking for a balanced approach to this conversation is probably just as problematic as asking for only the good news: It's erasing the fact that I do in fact have some redeemable characteristics and positive potentials, even if I don't know what they all are.

Zarathu said:

People don't want to change their behavior, or their views of themselves, or the things that are actually stopping them from success. And again, they want to hear about how wonderful they are. They will tend to gravitate to astrologers who are willing to tell them how wonderful they are, and I see it often here on AC. I will present options to discover their real issues, and someone else will offer a way to find out how wonderful they really are, and my posts will be totally ignored. This is despite the fact that everyone knows that its not the wonderful parts of us that cause us the trouble in life, its the hard parts that we need to work on.

And when I see someone who is very very interested in learning all kinds of things but at the same time has an insular Grand trine, I tend to need to ask again and again as to whether they really want to pursue it. After all, these are really things best left to pursuit in private with a profesisonal therapist or your clergyman(if s/he is so trained and not trying to get you to be "saved" in his own theological way at all costs).

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And on the matter of people only wanting to hear wonderful things about themselves: are they fishing for nice things that are true, or meaningless flattery? Not that that's relevant, I guess. Even if I didn't want to change now, why actively stand in front of information that I could use in order to make changes should I decide to in the future?

And I don't want to be snippy, but I do feel some kind of way about being compared to people I know nothing about in such a fashion.

Zarathu said:

The problem for me is that I find it difficult to offer extended private consultations for a number of reasons, not the least of which that this is a forum and not a private internet counseling service(if there is such a thing actually). I've offered to do that and find it disagreeable. This I know is for two reasons: (1) I understand what a counseling relationship has to consist, and an interaction on line is not a counseling relationship, (2) I really enjoy both the sharing of communication across different people, as well as the need to "teach" really how to do astrology at a complex professional level.

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This is a much more significant point to me and I agree; the really personal nature of my chart and what it reveals really should be discussed in person one-on-one and in an arrangement of confidence. But I don't have that option. I have never had the option of learning things about myself in a counseling environment until relatively recently.

Revealing your insights on my chart to me (especially on this thread) would become, in essence, a counseling session?... I don't think I ever looked at it way. Is that because your method involves going beyond stating the hard facts and is also about confronting them? That certainly makes sense- I never expected to get that deep for exactly the fact that it would be asking a lot of you.

I would respect it if you simply didn't want to go down that road with me, but I feel like you'd rather I to opt out instead of saying that you haven't any interest in getting that in-depth with someone on this forum. I would understand that, even if I was disappointed because you know so much, but I would definitely understand. As it is, I'm feel somewhat bothered that you'd presume so much about my response to the truth about my chart. I should get the chance to respond in one way or another, right?

---
I am somewhat awed by how many factors you put into the exploration of cognition in your astrological framework. I'm pretty sure I'm at least ten years too early to begin trying to figure it out! I am very glad to see this part of your process, though. Thank you, Zarathu.

P.S: I was looking again at the short descriptors that you have here regards the roles Mercury, Jupiter, and Saturn play in terms of Thought and I still find myself amused. My only Fire/Air planets. Somehow, I would have thought that this would have been more of an issue than my Grand Trine. But fixing misunderstandings like it is why I want to learn.

Thank you for talking about you Grand Trine, Kimbermoon. I imagine that I might eventually learn how to use my Grind Trine's effects in a constructive way, and it is nice to read your encouragement. It sounds feasible to imagine looking at the Trine as evidence of Divine protection, though I will admit that I am not so inclined. All the same, thank you again.

Since I have been talking about the understanding of consciousness strictly from an astrological point of view, I have decided to offer up a wider intro description of the Zarathu-Wescott-Huber model©. It takes the model as represented by practitioners Wescott and Huber and expands and modifies their formulations for a much wider and broader theory of how the mind works from an astrological point of view. The Zarathu Model could not function except by building on the shoulders of Giants of the Hubers and Martha Lang Wescott.


The Zarathu-Wescott-Huber model of cognition© is a complex interaction of physical brain function with astrological conceptualizations for the physical structures. The physical structures are the Reptilian Brain, the limbic brain, and the cerebral cortex.

Zarathu combines and expands the conceptualizations of two famous theorist/practitioners of astrology into one central theme of how cognitive structures in humans are represented in astrology.

According to this model the Ascendant is the base level from which we all grow, and it’s a hard wired way in which we tend to respond to all new situations, which starts at birth. Martha Lang Wescott notes that developmentally the only part of our brains that functions fully up to specification is the reptile brain when we are born. Emotional thinking(Limbic system) and abstract reasoning(cerebral cortex) is something that we grow into.

Remember that our brains are rather small at birth. There are simply not enough brain cells or connections between the cells to carry on the limbic and cerebral cortical functions. What you see in the tiny child head is essentially a full formed reptile brain, along with the basic beginning structure for the limbic and cerebral cortical systems to expand toward.

This model shows at birth we respond with reptile process, but gradually we learn to understand experience beyond a simple reaction to circumstance. In this model the Ascendant is the basic decoder of experience. The Ascendant shows our beginning fight or flight response we have to new situations at the most basic level of our human experience, as experienced at imprinting of the moment of birth. We look to the Ascendant’s placement in the signs. But the Ascendant is always limited by being the cusp of the 1st house, and when you think that the beginning of YOU is your first house this makes sense categorically.

At birth, this is all we have. Neither our limbic nor our cerebral cortical systems are completed physically developed enough(there are simply not enough brain cells or neuronal connections between cells) to perceive the world in anything more than eating/sleeping: fight; or crying: flight. And this is represented by the Ascendant.

As we grow the next system to become more fully developed is the limbic system. The limbic physical structures work to take the basic fight or flight response and turn it into a more complex pattern of response which is centered around security. The Moon’s placement in signs and houses shows the basic interactions with security, as well as the Moon’s strength and friction level. The Moon is also the repository for memory, and everybody’s memories have a bit of a different coloring to them. Memories are often perceived as the same for everyone, but this is simply incorrect. Each of us has a coloring of memory which is subtly different than everyone else. It is the placement of sign and house, as well as strength and friction that helps define how memories are colored in your brain.

There are basically 12 kinds of security, modified by 12 houses to bring up a basic understanding of how security becomes the next motivating factor in consciousness and in interaction with the world. Animals without a cerebral cortex, cannot modify experience beyond security. And no matter how intelligent your Labrador retriever seems to be, everything for her is centered around either fight or flight, or around security. Am I OK, or do I need to eat, defecate, or fight or run? The basic thinking patterns of a being without a cerebral cortex to do more.

The last part of the brain to be developed is the cerebral cortex. Recent research shows that it continues to develop with more neuronal pathways with not more cells throughout life.

We call this Abstract Thinking, and compared to the limbic system’s simple concern a bout patterns of security, or the reptile brain’s even more dichotomous fight or flight, the abstract brain, the cerebral cortex, is several orders of magnitude more complex in its pattern recognition. In its basic sense, abstract thinking is not limited to just one pattern, but is constantly engaged in a search and a development of new and old behaviors to hundreds of if not thousands of recognized patterns in the environment, as well as internal thinking patterns that the individual makes up themselves.

As a consequence the astrology of the cerebral cortex is very very complex, and quite honestly has just only begun to be developed. It centers around three basic planets of pattern recognition: Mercury, Saturn, and Jupiter.

Mercury’s characteristics show how the organism works at finding new information to fit into patterns and how it puts this new information into new patterns of awareness, which influences behavior. Mercury is constantly looking into the future, and though Mercury pays lots of attention to the past, its penchant for collecting the last possible detail of information and putting it into a pattern box always keeps it looking into the future.

Saturn provides a balance to Mercury. Saturn doesn’t look for new information a bout the environment, but only seeks to conserve the old information and patterns. New information that Mercury finds is put into structures that already exist. Without Saturn, an organism would never learn from experience, and would find everything a new event to be put in a new box. Saturn keeps this from happening by keeping the old tried and working ways functional with the new information. But a too strong Saturn can drive the individual to fail to see anything new and to be stuck in old patterns of action that may no longer work for new experience.

Jupiter, seems as the planet of expansion in other areas of astrology, is actually the planet of moderation in the brain. It does provide expansion and growth by using its own distinct style to moderate and use the new information gathering and the old established patterns to make a whole that is much larger and more significant than the individual parts.

These three planets are then modified by myriads of asteroids, Arabic parts, sensitive points, and in a larger way by broad chart structures such as T-Squares, Grand Trines and Grand Squares, and Yods.

This is the beginning of another post for Stillone where I am moving to look at the characteristics of his own personal astrology of consciousness:

From here it starts to get more complicated. Human consciousness is an amalgam of elements, some strong, some not so strong, some easy to use, some fraught with difficulty, and under-layed by levels of unconscious parts which control us on levels that we are not fully aware.

The first step is to look at our reptile brain. The is the part of the brain which you had to start with as an infant. At that time your limbic and cerebral cortex was not controlling your behavior. You were completely controlled by your own version of the fight or flight reflex. So this is an unconscious process that exists now even though you have covered it with security( a developed limbic system) and abstract thinking pattern development. These unconscious issues are so great it is the reason why the military and the police spend extensive periods training your Saturn to cognitively take control and deal using patterns that have been taught to you to take over. And you can do this; this training runs extensive neuronal patterns into the limbic and reptile brain systems to develop control.

So lets look at an example for you, which recently happened to me.

I have three cars: a little red AWD Subaru, a van which currently has a dead battery, and a giant black AWD 4.6 Liter Ford Explorer. Last week, in the middle of the night, on a night which had no moon, we were awoken by a loud noise that wouldn't stop. At first we hand no idea what it was. It was surely scary, and finally we figured out that the car horn of the Subaru or the Ford had come on suddenly and was not going off. At first we tried to get the Subaru to go off but we only succeeded in turning it into a beep-beep-beep-beep mode before we realized that it wasn't the Subaru, but was the Ford. The ford is old and has no radio device so this means I'd have to go out into the cold, snowy yard and do something. Eventually I figured out that I would need to turn the engine on and warm the car up and get it to stop.

What I've described here was a response to a stimuli. It started with a fight/flight response, went to a limbic security response, and finally to a cerebral cortical pattern solving response based on previous patterns(Saturn) and the need for a new pattern (Mercury), and the intervention of organizing a new solution based response(Jupiter). Of course all this was modified by planetary, Arabic parts, asteroidal aspects and placements of those three planets, plus personal issues of recurred unresolved pain and mental chaos busy interfering with my patterns which lie under the surface.

Hello Zarathu (and everyone else who's interested! :3),

There are two parts to this post. I want to begin with by saying that this entire framework appeals to me quite a bit (I've always had a curiosity about psychology, and discussions that include it tend to attract me.)

Also, I kind of hope that a lot of people see this, because your Model is really accessible, I think- especially in terms of appealing to people who feel some kind of way about how metaphysical and mystical astrology can sometimes seem. I imagine that if Astrology was explained to me like this, I would have been very interested in it well before two years ago.

One of the things about reading this that I find most impressive/fascinating is that all of the layers of cognition you describe (even, to a certain extent, conscious thoughts and decisions made on a cortical level) work so fast and naturally, and yet there is so much that needs to be explained! I don't know if I'm making sense- but it's kind of looking at a massive source program and seeing how much needs to be coded, just for a relatively short and simple looking program to run. And I find that fantastic! Illuminating, too!

This second part is of a radically different tone.

It's very funny how the right words coalesce perfectly sometimes. I wasn't originally going to write this question, but I don't mind because this is better. To begin with, I haven't managed to ask a real question with my thread. So while I wanted to explore the relationship between astrology and psychology (especially specifically to me), I never really worked out how to direct discussion to a specific goal. But now, I think that I have direction now:

I want to know what's with my mind. I want to know why it is that I have so many things I want to do, but these wants do not translate into actual motivations or inspirations or goals or anything.

Is this the influence of my Grand Trine, acting like a smothering caretaker or handler that turns me back to a metaphorical Nest with all of my comfort-distractions whenever I get a feeling that I want to "do" something? I mean, really, that's what I am starting to feel like sometimes!

If I want to do anything other than the whole school/home routine, I just get tired or discouraged by how much work it'll take from me and I just roll over and try to find something else to occupy my mind with. Seriously, the only recent new thing that I've been able to introduce to my life is Astrology itself, and that's probably in part because I am able to engage in it while doing things I already did (talk to and learn from people, be online, read/collect books).

As soon as I have to actually put more time and deeper focus into practicing something so that I can develop and hone my skills, my 'keeper' comes to me and says "isn't that just terribly frustrating? Why do you want to bother with all of that thankless work when you could do something you're already good at? Look, one of your favorite songs! You know how much you love to sing! Put that down and come with me." And I go because she's right. I do feel frustrated and helpless and I don't bother trying to push through it because there's always something else that I can do that's not so terrible.

So, I think I understand how restrictive my Grand Trine is. I think that the reason why I am so bothered by personal entropy is because have I such a natural tendency to it. When I have nothing to do or work for, I break down too easily. But the fact that this bothers me has to mean something. It just has to. Right?

And that's where I wonder about my T-square. What if the reason why I keep wanting all of these things is because those squares are nagging at me to DO SOMETHING? What if the reason why I can't accept my comfortable mediocrity is because of this T-square?

**Just to be clear, any reference I make to 'keepers', 'minders', or 'caretakers' is just my analogy for what I think my Grand Trine is like.**

That's really what I wanted out of this exercise in studying my own mind Astrologically. I wanted to know if I am stuck in a box of my own (as far as my chart goes) making, and if that's why despite all of the little yearnings for more, for something, I am just here. Am I just designed to be stuck in a rut and unhappy about it? Because, logically speaking, if I was happy about it, why would I question it, right?

But I just had to have an even number of strong easy and difficult contacts, didn't I? Why is it, in what I am starting to see as a TUG OF WAR between my Grand Trine and my T-Square, the Grand Trine is winning?

Your description of the Moon as the symbolic ruler of the limbic system really got me thinking about this, Zarathu.

"As we grow the next system to become more fully developed is the limbic system. The limbic physical structures work to take the basic fight or flight response and turn it into a more complex pattern of response which is centered around security. The Moon’s placement in signs and houses shows the basic interactions with security, as well as the Moon’s strength and friction level. The Moon is also the repository for memory, and everybody’s memories have a bit of a different coloring to them. Memories are often perceived as the same for everyone, but this is simply incorrect. Each of us has a coloring of memory which is subtly different than everyone else. It is the placement of sign and house, as well as strength and friction that helps define how memories are colored in your brain. "

Is the strength of my Grand Trine connected to the fact that my Moon is a part of it? All three of the planets in the Grand Trine are very strong, but my Moon is the strongest, so is that the key? This comfortable mediocrity, as I've chosen to call it, is nothing if not secure, compared to my alternatives...

But my cerebral planets persist, don't they? Especially my Mercury, as apex of my T-square, keeps trying to counter the 'handlers', right? ...My Jupiter and Saturn, though strong in aspect, are weak separately. And all three of these planets are much weaker than my Moon. (But, if it is so strong, then I have to be meant to live a Lunar-directed life? I wonder...)

Is there a way out of my Grand Trine? Am I right to suspect that it will in fact take a complete overhaul of my Self? Even if I'm still afraid of that answer, I want to know.

... I guess this was the wrong question to ask after all.

No.... Just because I'm retired doesn't mean that I'm floating with time.

Just haven't gotten to it yet. I've been swamped lately. I have little times to answer quick questions but sitting down with the charts and working out a long answer to questions is a different time use issue altogether. And now we have 20 people visiting tomorrow for lunch, and I have to go shopping and then clean the house, then more stuff so that I won't have the 45 minutes I need until Sunday afternoon---maybe.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to seem impatient at all.

...I just was a bit worried (that maybe my question was a bad one or something) and thought that maybe I should say something.

I understand, thank you.

It looks as if we've looked at 2 of the three basic characteristics of your cognitive structures, the fight/flight response, and the Limbic system. is this correct?

IF SO, then we need to move into the much broader look at the systems of human thinking. These will include your cerebral cortex, and the issues emotionally and mentally as they are presenting to your right now(tertiary and minor progressions).

Am I on track for you?

If so, then I'm going to need to know if you moved away from your place of birth more than 17 miles or 25 km, any time during the first 4 years of life and if so specifically when and where. You can PM me this information for privacy sake if you wish.

Hello Zarathu!

Yes to your first question. We've done an overview of my fight/flight instinct and Limbic system. Actually, could you please PM me the list you wrote about my ascendant? I would like to save it.

In response to the last part: No, I hadn't moved anywhere of that distance in my first four years.

Silversong said:

. Actually, could you please PM me the list you wrote about my ascendant? I would like to save it.

Click to expand...

What list are you talking about?

A fair bit earlier in the thread, Zarathu, when you were explaining to me the role the ascendant plays in one's cognitive structure, you also posted a list of characteristics that you connect with Scorpio Rising- so that I could look at it and relate to you how well I identified with it.
...I think that you removed it because you were having some disagreement with Kimbermoon (since she also has this rising sign), but I was hoping that you could PM it to me- if you don't want to post it back on the thread, I mean.

Silversong said:

A fair bit earlier in the thread, Zarathu, when you were explaining to me the role the ascendant plays in one's cognitive structure, you also posted a list of characteristics that you connect with Scorpio Rising- so that I could look at it and relate to you how well I identified with it.
...I think that you removed it because you were having some disagreement with Kimbermoon (since she also has this rising sign), but I was hoping that you could PM it to me- if you don't want to post it back on the thread, I mean.

Click to expand...

Oh.... OK. I'll get right on that.

Remember that the cognitive quotient is based on the most current brain studies. I suggest that you you might consider reading "THE BIOLOGY OF TRANSCENDENCE" by Joseph Chilton Pearce. He is more famous for his 1970 book "The Crack in the Cosmic Egg".

In this more current book he talks about the two other brains: the pre-frontal cortex and the heart. I believe that a combination of these are ruled by the higher dimension of Venus and this takes the discussion into elements of Esoteric Astrology(Esoteric Astrology by Alice A. Bailey is a good read but impossible to understand by the novice; The Astrology of the Soul is easier).

In this case, I believe that a measure of a very low friction Venus is a measure as to whether the true impact of the pre-frontal cortex actually causes changes. It is a little known fact that the heart actually contains 80% neurons of the same type that are in the brain. His compilation of information about the EM field of the heart is almost scary in its implications, and serves a pretty clear understanding of the impact of birth astrology.

Scorpio Rising, ASC, the reptile brain, and the Fight Flight Response, as requested above:

1. Strong and forcible character tending to management and fight over any chance for flight

2. Tend to powerful and determined in getting what they want check also for what the Moon latitude is, and the power of Mars in the chart

3. Fight(or management of the situation) may be a real possibility

4. Does not shrink from management either in going after it or having it thrust upon them

5. Need privacy at the level that borders on paranoia

6. Ingenious and resourceful often reading between the lines and acting on information that is not readily visible to others

7. Tends to focus on the mystical, hidden and secret in circumstances that management is involved

8. Mars is the planet ruling Scorpio before Pluto and bring this essentially warlike mode to the Ascendant

Remember:

When you are looking at the Reptile Brain's fight Flight Response which is represented by the ASC, you have to look at the relative power and friction of the ASC, the Moon, and the Cerebral cortex manager Jupiter. If the Moon is stronger that the ASC, you will shift into security issues pretty quickly in new situations. But if ASC is stronger than Moon you may be stuck in working out fight or flight for much longer.