No aspects to MC?

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Hi. Its a degree which perhaps has a greater sense of urgency than any other part of the zodiacal cycle, and which is perhaps also the most subjective in that the sense of individuality is only just re-awakening following the hemicycle which consists of the social/collective signs.

I wonder, was her Mars aspecting Neptune and/or Pluto, rendering impotent the fighting spirit needed to act on that sense of urgency? Midpoints could also be interesting, especially any planets aspecting MC/ASC, MC/Sun, MC/Moon, and also any midpoints contacting the MC itself.

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The mid point between her Mercury and Venus (Cancer) squared her MC.
Then midpoint between Venus and Mars - (Leo) was conjunct MC

Hello Miquar. That's an interesting point you make about the relationship between Mars and Pluto and/or Neptune "rendering impotent the fighting spirit needed to act on that sense of urgency."

I have read quite a few posts about how Neptune dissolves Mars' energy when they are in contact, but I didn't think that Pluto would mute Mars' fighting spirit.

Would you please talk more about what you meant when you mentioned this? I do have a personal interest in asking, but I don't want to get too into it here, since this is someone else's thread.

Hi. We often think of Mars and Pluto as being 'on the same page' so to speak, and of course in some ways they are. Pluto is considered the higher octave of Mars, and they share rulership of Scorpio. (Rudhyar believed that Pluto rules Aries but this still involves them sharing a sign.)

Sasportas called Mars the henchman of the Sun - its energy enables to initiate change in the everyday world. And I think we can see Pluto as the henchman of the Higher Self - because it enables us to do work in the 'underworld'.

The crucial difference mentioned in the last paragraph, (which is rooted in the fact that Mars is the next planet out from the Earth, and Pluto is the next planet out from the solar system 'proper' where the galaxy meets the solar system) is the key to answering your question, imo.

Pluto can manifest as great passion, focus and determination, and this can occur in a very healthy way where the individual has a healthy sense of self which can express Pluto's transformative energy selflessly and yet in a creative and conscious (i.e. individual) way.

But to the extent that the individual is insecure - where the ego is defended - Pluto can be experienced differently, because there is a lack of trust that everything will be ok on a deeper level if we let Pluto take its course. Sometimes we try to use Plutonian passion and insight to protect ourselves from Pluto's process. In the case of a Mars Pluto aspect this can manifest as a ruthless determination to get our personal will (Mars) fulfilled.

But sometimes there is a very different outcome whereby the personal will feels disempowered by Plutonian processes. (Of course this sense of disempowerment is also present in the case described in the previous paragraph, but there the individual overcompensates). Thus a Mars Pluto person may have a sense that whatever she or he tries to do with the Mars energy, some greater power will pull rank. This is often related to the overpowering use of Mars energy by someone in the early environment. A Pluto Mars person may deliberately suppress their Mars energy because it feels too dangerous - like she or he will not be able to control its intensity - and again the early environment is often implicated, perhaps because of a negative role model and/or because the native expressed Mars intensely as a child and the family couldn't cope and so the child ended up associating aggression with alienation.

If this doesn't tell you what you need to know, then feel free to set up a thread with your chart and draw my attention to it with a pm, and I'll try to say something more relevant to you.

Wow... Thanks Miquar.

You definitely got at what I was asking about, and further than that, I think that you pointed out something pretty important for me here- especially in that last paragraph. In fact, I think that it describes reasonably well something I'm dealing with.

Again, not trying to hijack the thread, but I suspected that regardless of the type of contact between Mars and Pluto (because I hardly see anything that helpful in my life about having the Trine), these sorts of potentials would be symbolized by said contact.

Hi. Yes, any aspect between any two planets can be troublesome, at least initially. A lot depends on what is going on in the rest of the chart of course. Any aspect between Mars and Pluto implies that these planets will work together in one way or another, and this may or may not accord with the needs and values of other parts of the chart. For example, if someone has a very airy chart, then they may find it difficult to use a Mars which is followed around by Pluto. If, like most people on the forum seem to, you have Pluto in Scorpio, and your Mars is in Cancer or Pisces, then this makes this Mars yet more watery. But in the absence of the chart, I must let you assess whether such clash of values of this kind is occurring within you.

Trines suggest an innate understanding of how the planetary functions can work together, but it doesn't necessarily mean that either or both of these functions are operating creatively and consciously. We may find it easy to combine the destructive sides of the functions! A difficulty with trines is the lack of tension generated, because this means that we are less likely to question how we are combining the functions concerned. Hard aspects can be more full-on, but they do bring a sense of self-doubt and internal resistance which can propel the individual to find more satisfying ways to express the two planets together.

It could be that someone in your early life found it all too easy to express the Mars Pluto dynamic in destructive ways - satisfied that it was ok to be like that. If your experience of the Pluto-Mars dynamic in early life was problematic, then you will need to make efforts to turn this around. This will involve avoiding the downside of trines mentioned above.

Once you've assessed the relationship of the Mars-Pluto aspect to the rest of the chart, you can look at how the chart as a whole might be defended against the expression of this aspect, taking into account that your impression of this aspect is probably caged within your memories of a negative role model, and that you may be defended against becoming like this person. Then you can look for ways of expressing Mars Pluto that do not threaten the values of the chart, and also where you might need to relax the defences of the rest of the chart to meet Mars Pluto half-way.

Having shown concern for hijacking the thread, and with a affable manner in general, it would seem that you err on the side of caution when it comes to asserting your needs. But you will express this aspect in some way, perhaps you can be very determined about some things, and perhaps when you have very strong desires for certain things. You may assert yourself strategically rather than directly (having learnt this by having to navigate a wilful person in your early life). But whatever expression it takes, it would be good to acknowledge it fully to help you to further integrate the Mars-Pluto aspect into your sense of self.

Because it is a trine rather than a square or opposition, it may be useful to treat the Mars-Pluto aspect as a single entity at first - perhaps imagining it as a combination of Mars in Scorpio and Mars in whatever sign it is actually in. Get a feel for it as a whole and see how its needs and values differ from those of the rest of the chart.