Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

lostinstars said:

Ok, I get it now. I think there is some danger in it because spirit of a law could be different from one person to another based on several factors. Letter of the law can be objective and better.

Click to expand...

I can respect that view, and there are a lot of people in agreement that it is better for the majority to adhere to orthodoxy because it will result in less mistakes from a constituency who may not have the sufficient virtues (whether it be moral or intellectual) to live faithfully, if they were given the opportunity to freely interpret the law for themselves.

But, we know that fundamentalism has its dangers as well. ISIS is a current day example a strict letter of the law approach. And even then in physics it is demonstrated that the observer affects the outcome of experiments. We can't escape subjectivity and it can be dangerous to rely on an objective reading of law since there are many factors that makes the process insidiously subjective - on philological grounds and your interpretation of the meanings of words (you might think you are reading a word objectively but when you trace the etymology of a word it connotes a different meaning and resonance from your "objective" understanding), cultural, age, psychological state etc.

conspiracy theorist said:

But what passes for the tradition of western astrology isn't Holy Writ. Some adherents of traditionalism display a dogmatism which connotes that ancient wisdom is perfect, and I don't share that view. An innovation could also come from a deep understanding of a subject and knowing the laws that underlie it. Evolution of a craft, and not just a mere deviation (which is more abundant).

Click to expand...

Very valid point. What innovation you are talking about in the case of traditional astrology? If you say psychology, then we do not need to discuss further on this point at least because I stated my position several times on this thread.

conspiracy theorist said:

Fate is the dominant, within the confines of fate you have choice in the sense that you can make of your materials what you will. Say you have a Mars/Jupiter conjunction in Aries on the Midheaven. You were born in a social milieu that allowed you the opportunity to become a career soldier, entrepreneur, or a pioneering explorer/adventurer. The aspect will manifest one way or another, but there is a range that is possible. It is in this range where your are accorded choice.

Click to expand...

Fate may give you a choice on the path you would take but not on what you would become. That is why it is very difficult to see what a person will become even though there could be few possibliites. But you can explain only by looking back at your life matching with transits. I intend to do some research on key figures and friends but this may take really really long time.

conspiracy theorist said:

I can respect that view, and there are a lot of people in agreement that it is better for the majority to adhere to orthodoxy because it will result in less mistakes from a constituency who may not have the sufficient virtues (whether it be moral or intellectual) to live faithfully, if they were given the opportunity to freely interpret the law for themselves.

But, we know that fundamentalism has its dangers as well. ISIS is a current day example a strict letter of the law approach. And even in physics it is demonstrated that the observer affects the outcome of experiments. We can't escape subjectivity and it can be dangerous to rely on an objective reading of law since there are many factors that makes the process subjective - on philological grounds and your interpretation of the meanings of words (you might think you are reading a word objectively but when you trace the etymology of a word it connotes a different meaning and resonance from your "objective" understanding), cultural, age, psychological state etc.

Click to expand...

I think we are digressing from the topic. There is nothing wrong in being dogmatic nor holding fundamental beliefs as long as no body gets hurt. Subjectivity always creeps in that is why we should stick to objective laws and methods. That is why I keep insisting that astrologers should only read what the chart says but not add their subjective opinion.

I'm not a huge fan of quantum mechanics, if subjectivity is everything why people are still struggling to improve their lives?

This is Saturn in me talking, the time is not yet here for humans to behave like gods. If there are some around they must be from the future.

The fact that planetary magic works is a testimony to the little control we have over our lives.

Sorry to jump in again, but did everyone give their definition of fate and free will on the thread? Because I've been trying to figure it all out. Also @lostinstars, are you saying that the planets are agents of fate, as in they cause fate to unfold?

I figure the planetary configurations could just be correlates/markers for experiences. Further, in people's definitions of fate, is time a component then? I saw David say that quote about fate is the future, but living in the now might be the way out. Given my limited knowledge of physics, I'm just uncertain time is such an objective thing.

lostinstars said:

Very valid point. What innovation you are talking about in the case of traditional astrology? If you say psychology, then we do not need to discuss further on this point at least because I stated my position several times on this thread.

Click to expand...

Kepler's introduction of the non-ptolemaic aspects which paved the way for interpreting birth charts using more intricate geometrical patterns, the various house systems that all are based on different astronomical criteria, the various triplicity systems as outlined Ptolemy and Lilly, the introduction of the 3 outer planets, Ptolemy's efforts to create an astrology based more on naturalistic grounds than mystical, Heliocentric astrology from the Magi astrologers, the increasing of lots, astrocartography (mentioned before), and this interesting theory that has yet to be really proved or tested -
A new perspective on the exaltation.

None of this is "psychological" per se. Some of these have been accepted into more mainstream practice, while the jury is still out on some of them. Time will tell. I really think there is a space for those focused on expanding the field into newer territory, and for those who focus on unearthing the ancient insights which accords for greater wisdom on this mysterious art. Sectarianism just seems to be a waste of time to me.

lostinstars said:

Fate may give you a choice on the path you would take but not on what you would become. That is why it is very difficult to see what a person will become even though there could be few possibliites. But you can explain only by looking back at your life matching with transits. I intend to do some research on key figures and friends but this may take really really long time.

Click to expand...

Interesting project, but you might want to expand your predictive repertoire with more than transits. Fortunately you'll encounter a lot of interesting techniques the more you dig into the past.

moonkat235 said:

Sorry to jump in again, but did everyone give their definition of fate and free will on the thread? Because I've been trying to figure it all out. Also @lostinstars, are you saying that the planets are agents of fate, as in they cause fate to unfold?

I figure the planetary configurations could just be correlates/markers for experiences. Further, in people's definitions of fate, is time a component then? I saw David say that quote about fate is the future, but living in the now might be the way out. Given my limited knowledge of physics, I'm just uncertain time is such an objective thing.

Click to expand...

Yes to me planets are agents of fate. Living in the now may not stop things from happening to you but you may not perceive them so intensely. This is totally a different topic.

lostinstars said:

Yes to me planets are agents of fate. Living in the now may not stop things from happening to you but you may not perceive them so intensely. This is totally a different topic.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but this whole thread is about fate/free will. What are your definitions of those terms? I just had a conversation recently that intrigued me on these concepts.

lostinstars said:

I think we are digressing from the topic. There is nothing wrong in being dogmatic nor holding fundamental beliefs as long as no body gets hurt.

Click to expand...

That's a can of worms that will further deviate from the topic of free will vs. fate, but I've always found that argument shallow.

I'm not a huge fan of quantum mechanics, if subjectivity is everything why people are still struggling to improve their lives?

Click to expand...

It's not a matter of being a fan or not (I don't take such a premise on board because I "like" it). I'm not sure why you juxtapose subjectivity with the ability to improve their lives. We aren't only our conscious awareness, and we are filled with contradictory impulses that often work at cross purposes. I won't go further since you want this to remain focused on the thread topic.

conspiracy theorist said:

Kepler's introduction of the non-ptolemaic aspects which paved the way for interpreting birth charts using more intricate geometrical patterns, the various house systems that all are based on different astronomical criteria, the various triplicity systems as outlined Ptolemy and Lilly, the introduction of the 3 outer planets, Ptolemy's efforts to create an astrology based more on naturalistic grounds than mystical, Heliocentric astrology from the Magi astrologers, the increasing of lots, astrocartography (mentioned before), and this interesting theory that has yet to be really proved or tested -
A new perspective on the exaltation.

None of this is "psychological" per se. Some of these have been accepted into more mainstream practice, while the jury is still out on some of them. Time will tell. I really think there is a space for those focused on expanding the field into newer territory, and for those who focus on unearthing the ancient insights which accords for greater wisdom on this mysterious art. Sectarianism just seems to be a waste of time to me.

Click to expand...

If it is strictly mathematical and objective then I don't see why it should not be considered as innovation in traditional astrology. But whether to consider outer planets or not is up to an astrologer. I would not consider them for the sole reason that you are transferring attributes from traditional rulers to the new planets and if I do I can't hold the descriptions given by ancient astrologers as accurate. Then the whole corpus of knowledge is useless to me except techniques. And if a technique considers only seven planets on what basis I would decide which seven to consider if I add additional three. But if they are totally new techniques then I will be open to them.

conspiracy theorist said:

Interesting project, but you might want to expand your predictive repertoire with more than transits. Fortunately you'll encounter a lot of interesting techniques the more you dig into the past.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, there are many interesting techniques. That is why it will take really long time.

JUPITERASC said:

would be useful if you would state the gist of that conversation
because
if you had read entire thread
then you would have noticed that
lostinstars has already frequently on this thread
stated personal beliefs on fate/free will et al

Click to expand...

Alright, let me attempt to define fate with an analogy, but it's not my own.

Say there is a room with an ant walking across the floor. The ant is the human. Fate is the room and whatever is driving the ant to walk across the floor.

Side Note: Time might not be linear. A circle looks like a line when you can only see a segment of it. So this is not a perfect analogy.

Anyway, the ant walks across the room and thinks the room/environment is changing, but really it's the ant's perspective of the room that is changing. The room itself is still the same.

So, I was curious if this was the definition lostinstars was using for what fate is. My apologies for missing their definition. I had thought they'd said certain events and experiences were 'fated', but what does that mean exactly?

conspiracy theorist said:

That's a can of worms that will further deviate from the topic of free will vs. fate, but I've always found that argument shallow.

Click to expand...

I'm totally oldschool, strictly conservative and anti-liberal. Now you can blame Saturn.

lostinstars said:

I'm totally oldschool, strictly conservative and anti-liberal. Now you can blame Saturn.

Click to expand...

Nah m8, not the fundamentalism but the "as long as it doesn't hurt anybody" part.

moonkat235 said:

Alright, let me attempt to define fate with an analogy, but it's not my own.

Say there is a room with an ant walking across the floor. The ant is the human. Fate is the room and whatever is driving the ant to walk across the floor.

Side Note: Time might not be linear. A circle looks like a line when you can only see a segment of it. So this is not a perfect analogy.

Anyway, the ant walks across the room and thinks the room/environment is changing, but really it's the ant's perspective of the room that is changing. The room itself is still the same.

So, I was curious if this was the definition lostinstars was using for what fate is. My apologies for missing their definition. I had thought they'd said certain events and experiences were 'fated', but what does that mean exactly?

Click to expand...

You are making it too complex . To me fate is providence which ensures our lives play out exactly as planned by providence. Free will is restricted to minor things that are in no way contributing to your fate.

conspiracy theorist said:

Nah m8, not the fundamentalism but the "as long as it doesn't hurt anybody" part.

Click to expand...

Let's digress a little, I'm curious why do you say so?

As long as you live in a collective/social environment, even your most private actions and thoughts will have an effect on the world around you, which includes people. It might not be deliberate harm, but nevertheless the effect can be harmful in ways that aren't immediately apparent but can accumulate over time into something pronounced, which then leaves one saying, "what are the origins of all this mess and when did it happen?"

Understood?

moonkat235 said:

Alright, let me attempt to define fate with an analogy, but it's not my own.
Say there is a room with an ant walking across the floor.
The ant is the human.
Fate is the room and whatever is driving the ant to walk across the floor.

Click to expand...

lostinstars said:

You are making too complex .

To me fate is providence which ensures our lives play out exactly as planned by providence.

Free will is restricted to minor things that are in no way contributing to your fate.

Click to expand...

Quite
and so
lets say the ant is an ant
and then consider
whether we can decide simply
whether or not
an ant is walking across the floor of a room
or a human is walking across the floor of a room
i.e.
makes no difference whether ant or human
the room is a room
and "whatever is driving EITHER ant OR human"
is whatever is driving EITHER ant OR human

moonkat235 said:

Side Note: Time might not be linear.

A circle looks like a line when you can only see a segment of it.

So this is not a perfect analogy.
Anyway, the ant walks across the room
and thinks the room/environment is changing, but
really it's the ant's perspective of the room that is changing.
The room itself is still the same.

Click to expand...

no one knows what the ant is thinking
or even if the ant is thinking

moonkat235 said:

So, I was curious if this was the definition lostinstars was using
for what fate is.

My apologies for missing their definition.
I had thought they'd said certain events and experiences were 'fated', but

what does that mean exactly?

Click to expand...

By now you shall have read lostinstars response

lostinstars said:

You are making it too complex . To me fate is providence which ensures our lives play out exactly as planned by providence. Free will is restricted to minor things that are in no way contributing to your fate.

Click to expand...

So in your definition, fate is the 'end' result and whatever events solidify this 'end'? You assume providence conceptualizes the universe in linear time-bound terms? Providence is not detail-oriented and further is unconcerned with the journey so to speak, but rather strictly concerned with the summation of experiences?

conspiracy theorist said:

As long as you live in a collective/social environment, even your most private actions and thoughts will have an effect on the world around you, which includes people. It might not be deliberate harm, but nevertheless the effect can be harmful in ways that aren't immediately apparent but can accumulate over time into something pronounced, which then leaves one saying, "what are the origins of all this mess and when did it happen?"

Understood?

Click to expand...

Agree but everyone has a choice to either get influenced and follow or reject it. That is why law exists and should exist to protect individual's rights so that they don't get coerced by fundamentalisits or anyone else.

I think what you are meaning is more applicable to people with liberal views. Because anything is ok so let's change the order of things destroy the social structures and conservatives are old school people who don't know anything and one day you will wake up wondering what went wrong.

edit: Is it not the case liberals are always trying to get the laws changed to suit particular section of people?

That is why Saturn's dominion will ensure humans do not mess up a lot.

moonkat235 said:

So in your definition, fate is the 'end' result and whatever events solidify this 'end'? You assume providence conceptualizes the universe in linear time-bound terms? Providence is not detail-oriented and further is unconcerned with the journey so to speak, but rather strictly concerned with the summation of experiences?

Click to expand...

Yes and you can consider it as a linear time-bound but fate has the power to correct the course in an individual's life and also the world at large. Yes journey may be left to an individual but the destination will be the same.

lostinstars said:

Agree but everyone has a choice to either get influenced and follow or reject it. That is why law exists and should exist to protect individual's rights so that they don't get coerced by fundamentalisits or anyone else.

I think what you are meaning is more applicable to people with liberal views. Because anything is ok so let's change the order of things destroy the social structures and conservatives are old school people who don't know anything and one day you will wake up wondering what went wrong. That is why Saturn's dominion will ensure humans do not mess up a lot.

Click to expand...

One more step on the digressive path. You are a fan of Jordan Peterson, or at the very least take his views seriously. I'm sure you aware of the OCEAN personality test since he has popularized it. If you have taken it, what are your scores on it? What is your opinion on his view that what really happens in politics is that people are "arguing temperament"? Our respective temperaments may also determine which part of the spectrum we reside on the free will vs. fate problem.