Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Traditional Astrology

Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Unread 01-26-2014, 03:02 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

With the Grand Conjunction (Jupiter/Saturn) at 7 BC (thanks JA) I think it is quite possible that this might well have been the "Guiding Star" of the Magi.

Note: most historians of astrology mention Babylonian and Egyptian astrology as the basis upon which the Hellenists later syncretized their astrological system (circa 150-200 BC) There were, however, other streams (traditions) of astrology extant prior to (and contemporary with) the Hellenists: one stream was Magian (ie "Zorastrian") astrology, another stream was the "native Indic" stream (which, during the first 6 centuries AD, became mixed with Magian and Hellenist currents to form what we now know of as Vedic astrology) While we have much historical information on Babylonian and Hellenist astrological concepts, and some also regarding Egptian and early Indic (Vedic) astrology, we have little available regarding the Magian (aka pre-Islamic Persian) astrological traditions methods and practices.


Last edited by dr. farr; 01-26-2014 at 03:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 01-26-2014, 11:39 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
we have little available regarding the Magian (aka pre-Islamic Persian) astrological traditions methods and practices.


I think people like Molnar approach this issue the wrong way (remember he is an astronomer, not a historian). I see 3 possible ways of doing this research:

Option 1:
Identify the Wise Men.

a. Determine the celestial events that would have had astrological associations for the Wise Men based on their cultural setting.

b. Determine the date of Christís birth based on the dates on which celestial events important to the Wise Men occurred.

Option 2:
Identify the celestial events that could have been the Star.

a. Determine which cultural setting would have given these events astrological associations.

b. Identify the Wise Men based on the determined culture.

Option 3:
Determine the correct background history for the Star

a. The Bible says Christ was born shortly before Herod died.

b. Look for celestial events in the year or two preceding Herodís death which would also be Christís birth, then whatever events there were must be the Star of Bethlehem.

c. Determine which cultural setting would have placed astrological importance on the celestial events that made up the Star.

d. Identify the Wise Men based on the culture that recognized the Star.

Options 1 and 2 have too many unknowns

a. At least 5 different cultural settings (Babylonian/Mesopotamian; Persian; Indian; Chinese and Greco-Roman).

b. 10 Ė 20 year time span in which the celestial events could have taken place since you havenít pinpointed the date for the Star/birth of Christ.

c. Too many variables that must be interpreted and synchronized to ever establish a trustworthy interpretation/synchronization.

Option 3 is the best option

a. Archaeology and documented history allow us to pinpoint Herodís death to 1 BC (Josephusí record of the pre-Passover lunar eclipse).

b. Archaeology and documented history allow us to pinpoint approximate dates for the census that took Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem (sometime in 3 or 2 BC).

c. Several of the early Church Fathers recorded that Christ was born in what we now know as 3 or 2 BC.

d. Jupiter, Regulus, Leo, Virgo and Venus interacted from September 3 BC to December 2 BC.

So which cultures placed astrological importance on these celestial bodies? And, can the astrological importance of these celestial events pinpoint specific dates for things like the annunciation to Mary, conception and birth of Christ?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jeaflor For This Useful Post:
dr. farr (01-27-2014)
  #28  
Unread 01-27-2014, 03:20 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

Hellenist astrology placed importance on all the celestial factors mentioned; Persian (pre-Islamic Magian) astrology would (from what I know about it) have placed most importance on the 2 planets and the star (Jupiter, Venus, Regulus)
I'd have to accept that the Wise Men were in fact what they have been historically claimed to be: ie, Magi (pre-Islamic era Persian zorastrians)-I can't see that they were Hellenists (Greco-Romans), of course they weren't Babylonians (that civilization had already been submerged into other cultures)-and, I can't go along with the idea that they were Indians (Buddhist or Hindu astrologers). Magian astrology gave a great deal of influence to planets and stars (the Hellenists, while giving some attention to stars, mostly concentrated on planets and signs)-I think the inference is that the Wise Men were practitioners of the Magian (pre-Islamic Persian) astrological stream.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 01-27-2014, 12:07 PM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I'd have to accept that the Wise Men were in fact what they have been historically claimed to be: ie, Magi (pre-Islamic era Persian zorastrians)-I can't see that they were Hellenists (Greco-Romans), of course they weren't Babylonians (that civilization had already been submerged into other cultures)
The Wise Men who followed the Star were obviously unusual since they were on the lookout for a new Jewish King. But, Iím inclined to take them as coming from the city of Babylon because Babylon would have been the most important city in that part of the world.

And I also think there was a lot of cross-cultural influences between the Zorastrians and the older Babylonians with a lot of spillover into the Greco-Roman world. For example the planet Jupiter was identified as the supreme god by the Romans, Greeks (Zeus), Babylonians (Marduk) and Persians (Ahura Mazda). And all of these cultures associated Regulus with royalty and they all associated the constellation Leo with a lion.

Quote:
-and, I can't go along with the idea that they were Indians (Buddhist or Hindu astrologers).

My preliminary research would rule the Indians and Chinese as well. I cannot find any association these cultures had with Jupiter, Regulus, Leo etcetera that would suggest the birth of a Jewish King. And unlike the Bibleís record of Jewish Wise Men (Daniel) working in Babylon, history has nothing to indicate any Indian/Chinese contact with Judaism. The Indians/Chinese wouldnít have cared if a new King of the Jews was born or not.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 01-27-2014, 12:54 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,702
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeaflor View Post
The Wise Men who followed the Star were obviously unusual since they were on the lookout for a new Jewish King. But, Iím inclined to take them as coming from the city of Babylon because Babylon would have been the most important city in that part of the world.

And I also think there was a lot of cross-cultural influences between the Zorastrians and the older Babylonians with a lot of spillover into the Greco-Roman world. For example the planet Jupiter was identified as the supreme god by the Romans, Greeks (Zeus), Babylonians (Marduk) and Persians (Ahura Mazda). And all of these cultures associated Regulus with royalty and they all associated the constellation Leo with a lion.

My preliminary research would rule the Indians and Chinese as well. I cannot find any association these cultures had with Jupiter, Regulus, Leo etcetera that would suggest the birth of a Jewish King. And unlike the Bibleís record of Jewish Wise Men (Daniel) working in Babylon, history has nothing to indicate any Indian/Chinese contact with Judaism. The Indians/Chinese wouldnít have cared if a new King of the Jews was born or not.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF INTRIGUING THEORIES
REGARDING THE POSSIBLE IDENTITIES OF THESE 'WISE MEN'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M24LOlRuhYk





__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Unread 01-28-2014, 04:20 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

Babylon had fallen into desolation and was nearly completely abandoned by 140 BC (decades before the period of Jesus birth); great cities to the East of Palestine, not under Roman control, at the estimated period of Jesus birth were Persepolis, Ectabana, Alexandria-on-the-Caucusus, and particularly, Susa: note that the Zorastrian religion (and Magian astrology) dominated the culture of those cities, and that Hellenist influences were also prominent.

Last edited by dr. farr; 01-28-2014 at 04:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 01-28-2014, 11:29 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Babylon had fallen into desolation and was nearly completely abandoned by 140 BC (decades before the period of Jesus birth); great cities to the East of Palestine, not under Roman control, at the estimated period of Jesus birth were Persepolis, Ectabana, Alexandria-on-the-Caucusus, and particularly, Susa: note that the Zorastrian religion (and Magian astrology) dominated the culture of those cities, and that Hellenist influences were also prominent.
I should be ashamed of myself for not thinking to investigate this. It has never occurred to me to approach this issue from this angle. I know you have to consider the possible places where the Wise Men could have come from, but I was thinking Babylonia, Persia, India and China. It never occurred to me to consider individual cities.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Unread 01-28-2014, 12:46 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,702
Re: Jupiter occultation

ALTERNATIVELY...

A Planetary Conjunction?

'Ö.The popular answer among astronomers, astrologers, historians today is,
Star of Bethlehem was a planetary conjunction. Two bright planets appeared so close together in the sky
that they merged into one giant, super-star.


This happened once with Jupiter and Venus in 2 BC,
but it was only visible in the western sky.
Stars don't rise in the west.
No other planetary conjunctions were close enough to overlap in that decade.


I also find this answer insulting to the ancient stargazers.
They knew Venus and Jupiter.
The close conjunction in 2 BC occurred for a few hours one evening; however the conjunction built up over days.....'




'Ö.For example, on a Monday night stargazers would note

"Hey there's Venus and Jupiter a few degrees apart."

On Tuesday night
"There's Venus and Jupiter again and they're getting closer."

And then on night of conjunction, would they be surprised and say
"Oh my God, look at that star! I wonder what it is. Let's follow it!"

And then next night return to their stargazing to note,
"There's Venus and Jupiter again."

Any learned observer of the sky would've known exactly what was happening.
It would've been incredible to witness,
but these were Wise Men, remember? They certainly wouldn't have been fooled.....'




STAR OF BETHLEHEM HEAVENLY AND SCIENTIFIC MYSTERY
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-r...b_4466740.html



'Ö.I need more information. Bible did not record natural occurrences with trained eye of modern scientists but from a different world.

To satisfy Matthew's account for the Star of Bethlehem we would need an object that:

Is distinct, noticeable
Doesn't move with the stars
visible to Magi during their travels and on day they found Jesus
not visible to Herod
not visible to any other sources
last seen only in the greater Bethlehem area..

No natural object behaves in a way Bible describes. It is an unidentifiable flying object.
There is really only one conclusion: The Star of Bethlehem was a UFO...'
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Unread 01-28-2014, 01:04 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,702
Re: Jupiter occultation

SIX THEORIES ABOUT THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM
THAT DO NOT CONSIDER IT TO HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY A UFO

http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/6-t...bethlehem.html
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 01-28-2014, 01:43 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,702
Re: Jupiter occultation

The difficulties of treating the star of Bethlehem as a real astronomical object should not be underestimated

For example, New Testament scholar Brown' states
'a star that rose in the East,

appeared over Jerusalem,

turned south to Bethlehem,

and then came to rest over a house

would have constituted a celestial phenomenon unparalleled in astronomical history:

yet it received no notice in the records of the times.'




There is an astronomical object which fits very well the account in Matthew's gospel, and which also received notice in the Chinese records of the times -
My best guesses for the Bethlehem Star are the Chinese comet of 4 B.C http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astro...Humphreys.html


STAR OF BETHLEHEM really is open to so many interpretations.
Itís fun to consider what it might have been,
but I doubt any particular view will ever be proven.
Thereís simply too little evidence to go on,
and itís too easy to string numbers, coincidences,
earlier biblical passages, etc.
to create additional alternatives..... astroBob

THE UNSOLVED MYSTERY OF THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://astrobob.areavoices.com/2013/...-of-bethlehem/


WIKI INFO ON STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 01-28-2014, 10:40 PM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
A Planetary Conjunction?


I donít see how it could have been anything but. Anything else would have been as likely to cause fear as it would have a celebration.

Quote:
Is distinct, noticeable


But otherwise totally natural so it didnít cause fear and panic, and also not noticeable enough to have ended up in ancient records other than the Bible since the Bible is the only 1st hand record we have of it.

Quote:
Doesn't move with the stars
Quote:
visible to Magi during their travels and on day they found Jesus


Iím not sure what you mean here. We say that the Wise Men followed the Star. But the Bible simply reports that they saw it. They didnít need to follow it to get to Judea. They already knew that they were going to Judea.

And they knew from the Bible that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. But they didnít realize what the stars were telling them until it was too late to get to Bethlehem before Christ was born. They didnít know that Christ was still living in Bethlehem when they did arrive, and something had happened to the Star so they couldnít see it. But the Star reappeared after the Wise Men had talked with Herod only then did they follow it.

Quote:
not visible to Herod
not visible to any other sources


Not necessarily. Herod and others could have seen it, but without knowing what it meant.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Unread 01-29-2014, 04:40 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

Most if not all of the theories which involve planets and/or stars (excluding comets) have looked at possible conjunctions in LONGITUDE: but what about PARALLELS, either in declination or, perhaps more strikingly, in CELESTIAL LATITUDE?? I think only the slow moving planets (the visible ones), Jupiter and Saturn, could really be considered here (for testing such a hypothesis), and of these 2, most likely Jupiter (both because of its magnitude and also its symbolic significance for the cultures involved)

1) was there a parallel in latitude (under 1 degree) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus (or Spica or Capella) during the time period 7 BC up to 4 or 3 BC?

2) or was there parallel in declination (1 degree orb) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus, Spica or Capella, during the 7 BC through 3 BC time period?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 01-29-2014, 10:55 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Most if not all of the theories which involve planets and/or stars (excluding comets) have looked at possible conjunctions in LONGITUDE: but what about PARALLELS, either in declination or, perhaps more strikingly, in CELESTIAL LATITUDE?? I think only the slow moving planets (the visible ones), Jupiter and Saturn, could really be considered here (for testing such a hypothesis), and of these 2, most likely Jupiter (both because of its magnitude and also its symbolic significance for the cultures involved)

1) was there a parallel in latitude (under 1 degree) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus (or Spica or Capella) during the time period 7 BC up to 4 or 3 BC?

2) or was there parallel in declination (1 degree orb) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus, Spica or Capella, during the 7 BC through 3 BC time period?
Iím not familiar with these terms, all of this being new to me, but if they mean what I think they do- an alignment, I would venture that astronomers and historians have tunnel vision geared towards conjunctions. Maybe nobody has thought to run software simulations to look for alignments, but chances are we have been biased in favor of conjunctions because they have a greater visual impact than alignments do. Nobody will go to a planetarium to watch a show about alignments so there is a also a money factor involved.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Unread 01-30-2014, 03:50 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

Yes I think you are correct here: its always been about "conjunctions in longitude" and the parallels (defacto alignments), either in declination or in latitude, have been neglected: however, parallels (declinational and latitudinal) have been part-albeit an often ignorned part-of astrology since ancient times (both in the West, and also in Vedic astrology), and the thing about them is that you can actually see them in the sky, which is not always the case especially when we talk about conjunctions-in-longitude involving a star and a planet, for in fact the location in the sky of a star in longitudinal conjunction with a planet, can actually be far away from that planet (visually, in the sky), whereas in alignments (parallels) this is never the case.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 01-30-2014, 03:58 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
With the Grand Conjunction (Jupiter/Saturn) at 7 BC (thanks JA) I think it is quite possible that this might well have been the "Guiding Star" of the Magi.
However, if we grant a later birth year for the Nativity (5,4,3 BC) then this hypotheis must be rejected. With more thought regarding this matter, I am leaning more toward a planet/star alignment, rather than a conjunction of 2 or more planets. Reading some of the older literature, I am starting to favor Jupiter as the likely planet, and either Regulus or Spica as the star...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Unread 01-30-2014, 03:35 PM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
However, if we grant a later birth year for the Nativity (5,4,3 BC) then this hypotheis must be rejected. With more thought regarding this matter, I am leaning more toward a planet/star alignment, rather than a conjunction of 2 or more planets. Reading some of the older literature, I am starting to favor Jupiter as the likely planet, and either Regulus or Spica as the star...
Iím inclined to believe that it was Jupiter that the Wise Men followed, but that it took a series of conjunctions to make the Wise Men realize what they were being told. Itís possible that the celestial events from before 6 BC were meant to get the Wise Menís attention and tell them to be on the alert for future developments that came in 3-2 BC.

However, Iíve seen speculation in the course of my research that the Wise Men were pre-programmed to be on the lookout for the Messiah because the prophet Daniel recorded a schedule (Daniel 9:24-27).

But, no matter how many times I have read Daniel I cannot make heads or tails of it. Parts of this passage could be applied to Christ, but other parts could be applied to Antiochus Epiphanes(sp?), the emperor that the Maccabees revolted against. And then you have to decide whether or not the parts applied to Christ indicate His first coming, or His second.

If this is true, and we could pinpoint the time of Daniel, we would know when Christ was born and therefore know the year to look for the Star. But if the Wise Men knew when Christ was to be born, they could have simply gone to Judea ahead of time and waited, and this would have made the Star unnecessary.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Unread 01-31-2014, 02:06 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Is there any kind of website or arithmetic calculation that can give previous dates for the heliacal rising of Jupiter?

Iíll have to re-read the books to be certain, but based on what a couple of websites say Michael Molnar (The Star of Bethlehem The Legacy of the Magi) placed a heliacal rising of Jupiter on April 17, 6 BC, and Ernest L. Martin (The Star That Astonished The World) placed another helicacal rising on August 12, 3 BC.

I took Jupiterís synodic period of 398.9 days and counted forward from Molnarís date, but it doesnít create a cycle of heliacal risings that match Martinís date.

So, unless I am wrong about Jupiterís synodic period, or I miscalculated when I counted, one or the other of these dates must be wrong. But if my calculations are correct either of these dates would put a helicacal rising of Jupiter between June 17, 2 BC and December 25, 2 BC and this could explain why the Wise Men couldnít follow the Star (Jupiter) directly to Bethlehem when they arrived in Judea. If neither Molnar, nor Martin are correct, then I need some way to find when Jupiter had heliacal risings during this time period.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Unread 02-01-2014, 01:25 AM
poyi's Avatar
poyi poyi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,015
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeaflor View Post
I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).
I can't find any other source at the moment from Babylonian. I did find Virgo as Virgin, Be'tula in Hebrew meaning Virgin, according to

Ibn-Ezra (Avraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra), The Begining of Wisdom translated by and annotated by Meira B. Epstein edited with additional annotation by Robert Hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Wisd.../dp/096622664X
__________________
ďI believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery.Ē --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Unread 02-01-2014, 01:59 AM
poyi's Avatar
poyi poyi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,015
Re: Jupiter occultation

I am reading this book at the moment. Although originally written in Hebrew, this book also listed Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Hindu descriptions for dignities, debilities, rulership, degrees and signs physical features, body parts, Lots, Houses, aspects. Excellent book!
__________________
ďI believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery.Ē --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 02-01-2014, 02:10 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I can't find any other source at the moment from Babylonian. I did find Virgo as Virgin, Be'tula in Hebrew meaning Virgin, according to

Ibn-Ezra (Avraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra), The Begining of Wisdom translated by and annotated by Meira B. Epstein edited with additional annotation by Robert Hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Wisd.../dp/096622664X

I hadnít seen this Hebrew connection before. However, in Isaiah 7:14 the King James translates the Hebrew word almah as virgin. The same goes for the Greek Septuagint translation (almah = parthenos which means virgin). Non-King James English translations often translate Isaiah 7:14 as young girl trying to discount Christís Divinity by denying His virgin birth. But, anyone who knows what ancient Jewish society was like would know that a young girl would be a teenager who is still living with her parents because she is not yet married, and any un-married Jewish girl who wasnít also a virgin would have disgraced her family.

But at any rate, with the information you give here,
it would be entirely possible for Babylonian Wise
Men to make the connection between Virgo and
virginity by using this Hebraic conduit.

But, then with everything else that Iíve learned
here, I now need to look for a Zoroastrian
association between Virgo and virginity because I am
now thinking more that the Wise Men weren't culturally
Babylonian.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Unread 02-01-2014, 02:13 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I am reading this book at the moment. Although originally written in Hebrew, this book also listed Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Hindu descriptions for dignities, debilities, rulership, degrees and signs physical features, body parts, Lots, Houses, aspects. Excellent book!
I took German classes for grades 8-12. Iím beginning to forget most of it since it was so long ago, and I now wish I had spent the time studying Latin, Greek or Hebrew. They would have been more useful in the long run.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Unread 02-01-2014, 02:45 AM
poyi's Avatar
poyi poyi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,015
Re: Jupiter occultation

In the footnote of this book, p.46

Quote:
regarding Virgo:"Erastosthenes and Avienus identified her with Isis, the thousand-named goddess...clasping in her arms the young Horus, the infant southern sun-god, the last of the divine kings. This is very ancient figuring appeared in the Middle Ages as the Virgin Mary with the child Jesus...Albertus Magnus of our 13th century, asserted that the Saviour's horoscope lay here. It has been said that her initials, MV, are the symbol for the Sign
p.47 Footnote
Quote:
says that the ancient Arabs' Lion was a much larger constellation that extended from Gemini through Libra and parts of the constellation north and south of the zodiac. This may explain this mention of the Lion in the description of Virgo.
__________________
ďI believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery.Ē --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Unread 02-01-2014, 03:31 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Jupiter occultation

Historically, the constellation Virgo was associated with a virgin, or a goddess-like woman, or in fact a goddess (such as Isis or Ishtar) in ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (zorastrian), Greek, Roman, Indian and Tamil cultures: Spica is, of course, the prominent star of this constellation (and around the time of Jesus Nativity, the Virgo constellation largely occupied the tropical sign of Virgo) This is one of the reasons I have brought Spica into consideration (in alignment with Jupiter) as possibly being involved (my other most likely choice among the stars, being Regulus)
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Unread 02-01-2014, 11:56 AM
jeaflor jeaflor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Re: Jupiter occultation

Martin claims that Revelation chapter 12 (a woman clothed with the sun with the moon at her feet gives birth only to have a great dragon try to kill her child) is describing the celestial events preceding Christís birth. I canít readily make this connection because I donít see any part of Revelation as a book of history (or at least what would have been history to the Apostle John). Chapter 12 is likely more symbolism in an already highly symbolic book that we likely will never understand until the prophecies all actually happen.

But, suppose the Wise Men didnít associate Virgo with virginity. If they accepted this constellation as representing a woman, then the celestial events of 3 BC could still be interpreted as the start of a womanís pregnancy- just not a virginal one.

And this raises theological issues. Matthew says that the Wise Men worshipped Jesus. The word used for worship is the same word used later when Satan asked Christ to worship him and the same word used when other people later worshipped Christ. So, were the Wise Men looking for God, or were they just looking for a King of the Jews?

If they accepted Christ as God, did they not serve as Christian missionaries when they returned home? Why then did wherever home was not already have a Christian community when the Apostles or later missionaries arrived? Without such a community I would have to suggest that the Wise Men were very few in number (maybe even the 3 of Christian tradition), and they likely were well advanced in age so they had neither the number, nor the time, to do any evangelizing.

Just rereading chapter 12 of Revelation I noticed in verse 1 it says the woman had a crown of 12 stars on her head. 12 would be symbolic of the tribes of Israel or the original Apostles. But, does the constellation Virgo have 12 stars at its head region that could be this crown?
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Unread 02-01-2014, 01:25 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54,702
Re: Jupiter occultation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Historically, the constellation Virgo was associated with a virgin, or a goddess-like woman, or in fact a goddess (such as Isis or Ishtar) in ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (zorastrian), Greek, Roman, Indian and Tamil cultures: Spica is, of course, the prominent star of this constellation (and around the time of Jesus Nativity, the Virgo constellation largely occupied the tropical sign of Virgo) This is one of the reasons I have brought Spica into consideration (in alignment with Jupiter) as possibly being involved (my other most likely choice among the stars, being Regulus)
poyi's interesting research quotes the following information on this
Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
There are Virgin Mary and the Fixed Star Spica, the great gift of mankind.
A particular article about The Star of Bethlehem, Virgo Virgin Mary and the Star Spica: http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

Virgo, The Seed of the Woman. Jesus was born as the flesh of Woman alone with the Spirit from God. A 14 pages article of the Constellation of Virgo and Christianity, of course including Spica: http://biblenumbers.files.wordpress....the-woman1.pdf

Mythology of Virgo
http://www.atam.org/Virgo.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Quote:
Virgo is depicted as carrying sheaves of wheat in her left hand pointing toward the ground. The brightest star in Virgo is located in the sheaves of wheat, it's name is Spica. Spica means, the SEED. Jesus, born of a virgin, referred to this constellation. He said, "Except a grain (seed) of wheat falls into the ground and die it abide alone; but if it die, it brings forth much fruit." John 12:24 Jesus spoke this of himself, knowing that he was the Seed (Spica) of God that had to be sown into the earth (crucifixion-death-burial) in order to limitless multiply Himself through resurrection life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I don't think Leo is specifically talking about the Jew as Egyptian used Sirius and Orion for building their pyramids. Pisces is thought to be relevant to Jew maybe because Jesus fed them with fishes and bread Virgo/Pisces. And more relevant stories about Virgo and Pisces in the bible as well.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
poyi (02-01-2014)
Reply

Tags
jupiter, occultation

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.