Without knowing time and location of birthday what aspects is possible to read?

ronaldstg

Member
In a natal chart, if i don't know the location and time of birthday, what aspects of personality i can read at this chart?

Sun Sign, Moon Sign, Venus house?

I know it's a newbie question, but i always asked to myself what exactly location and time define on a natal chart.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
In a natal chart, if i don't know the location and time of birthday,
what aspects of personality i can read at this chart?

Sun Sign, Moon Sign, Venus house?

I know it's a newbie question,
but i always asked to myself
what exactly location and time define on a natal chart.
Without time and location there IS no horoscopic natal chart :smile:

Time and location DETERMINE THE ASCENDANT of a horoscopic chart
and the Ascendant determines the houses

therefore
With no time
and no location
then there is no ascendant
and
with no ascendant
there are no houses
there's no chart to read


 

ronaldstg

Member
Thanks @Jupiterasc, i'm was actually expecting to see at least a partial personality characteristics like those i've said before, moon, venus, sun these basics are assertive even without the hour and location , right ?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Thanks @Jupiterasc,
i'm was actually expecting to see at least a partial personality characteristics
like those i've said before, moon, venus, sun
these basics are assertive even without the hour and location , right ?
Without the hour and location
the natal Sun may be placed on the ascendant
hence
SUNSIGN astrology
aka newspaper prediction astrology :smile:
 

sibylline

Well-known member
Moon sign may or may not be possible, since it moves so quickly and may have been moving out of a sign. Sun sign, yes, Venus sign and the further planets most likely and aspects between them.

I wouldn't suggest this though. Place of birth, at the very least.
 
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astro11

Well-known member
Without the location and time of birthday, you can get every planet except the moon in the correct sign. For example, Venus in Libra, Mars in Scorpio. These won't change regardless of the time or location unless you happened to be born on a day when some of these planets were 29 degrees or 0 degrees of a sign. You can also get a reliable picture of the aspects between the planets (square, trine, conjunction etc.) as the orbs don't change significantly on the same day, except for the moon. You can also look at the midpoints and fixed stars for additional information. There is actually a lot you can tell about the personality without the time of birth, I know this because many of my clients don't have their exact or even approximate time of birth. The astrological chart is still very rich without the time.
 

ronaldstg

Member
Thanks, your answer were exactly what i've looking for.

Without the location and time of birthday, you can get every planet except the moon in the correct sign. For example, Venus in Libra, Mars in Scorpio. These won't change regardless of the time or location unless you happened to be born on a day when some of these planets were 29 degrees or 0 degrees of a sign. You can also get a reliable picture of the aspects between the planets (square, trine, conjunction etc.) as the orbs don't change significantly on the same day, except for the moon. You can also look at the midpoints and fixed stars for additional information. There is actually a lot you can tell about the personality without the time of birth, I know this because many of my clients don't have their exact or even approximate time of birth. The astrological chart is still very rich without the time.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Without the location and time of birthday, you can get every planet except the moon in the correct sign.

For example, Venus in Libra, Mars in Scorpio. These won't change regardless of the time or location
unless you happened to be born on a day when some of these planets were 29 degrees or 0 degrees of a sign.
You can also get a reliable picture of the aspects between the planets (square, trine, conjunction etc.)
as the orbs don't change significantly on the same day, except for the moon.
You can also look at the midpoints and fixed stars for additional information.
There is actually a lot you can tell about the personality without the time of birth,

The thread topic asks whether having NEITHER time NOR location
what aspects can be read

Without the time of birth, without location of birth only generalised information
applicable to EVERYONE BORN THAT DAY
nothing specific
That's more than three hundred and fifty thousand people
all with allegedly identical personalities
Similar to Newspaper Prediction One-Size-fits-All-Astrology

i.e.
"Sun Sign astrology"

fact is
Without time of birth there is no First House :smile:

FIRST HOUSE provides information regarding:


'....Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.
Older sources note its influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech.
In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality and manner of expression.
As well as describing the physical appearance,
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler indicates the level of personal vitality and strength..'


I know this
because many of my clients
don't have their exact
or even approximate time of birth.
The astrological chart is still very rich without the time.
NEVERTHELESS you are saying that your clients have a LOCATION of birth
A client with NEITHER time of birth NOR location of birth
has no chart at all
 

astro11

Well-known member
Even without a location, for most places in the world, the planets might be 1 to 2 degrees different in a sign depending on say if you were born in Japan versus Toronto versus India, therefore the interpretations of the planets in signs, except for potentially the moon will be accurate. Just experiment for yourself on the astrological software, keep the birthday and time the same and change the location. You will see the planets most likely don't change their sign unless at 0 or 29 degrees.

The chart doesn't need to have houses set up to give a fairly comprehensive reading. So what if the person only gets information for everyone born the same day as him or her? That is still much superior to sun sign astrology which divides the population into 12 categories. The birth info with the month, day and year yields a lot of information itself, and it is quite specific. Cultural factors, upbringing, gender, socioeconomic status, life experiences, and personal effort account for a lot too, so it is clear that people born on the same day will not have identical personalities.

The original poster was satisfied with my response, and is happy to learn as much about himself or herself as they can. You are giving incorrect information by saying only people with a time and location can have a chart which I am glad the OP is disregarding.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Even without a location, for most places in the world, the planets might be 1 to 2 degrees different in a sign depending on say if you were born in Japan versus Toronto versus India, therefore the interpretations of the planets in signs, except for potentially the moon will be accurate. Just experiment for yourself on the astrological software, keep the birthday and time the same and change the location. You will see the planets most likely don't change their sign unless at 0 or 29 degrees.

The chart doesn't need to have houses set up to give a fairly comprehensive reading. So what if the person only gets information for everyone born the same day as him or her? That is still much superior to sun sign astrology which divides the population into 12 categories. The birth info with the month, day and year yields a lot of information itself, and it is quite specific. Cultural factors, upbringing, gender, socioeconomic status, life experiences, and personal effort account for a lot too, so it is clear that people born on the same day will not have identical personalities.

The original poster was satisfied with my response, and is happy to learn as much about himself or herself as they can. You are giving incorrect information by saying only people with a time and location can have a chart which I am glad the OP is disregarding.
On the contrary it is misleading to imply
that an horoscopic astrological chart
is calculable with neither time nor location
when that is quite simply, impossible :smile:
however
if you would like to demonstrate your contention
then do post an example chart of an horoscopic astrological chart
that has neither time nor location
 

astro11

Well-known member
What you are saying does not make any sense at all; every person must be born at some time between midnight and 11:59 pm on any given day in some place on the earth. By definition then, everyone must have a chart. Everyone does have a time they were born at and a location they were born in, just because they don't know the exact value of these variables, doesn't mean they don't exist!

I've attached two charts for the same time in two different locations, you will see that each planet except the moon doesn't change much by degrees. You will see therefore that not having a location doesn't make a big difference. Normally when the time is unknown 12:00 pm is put in as a default, or an approximate time if you have it.

Without time and location you cannot have the houses correctly set up, and the Moon may have changed signs. Everything else is likely reliable, save for planets that are the very end or very beginning (0 or 29 degrees) of a sign and could have been in the adjacent sign.
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
What you are saying does not make any sense at all;
The OP is asking whether WITHOUT KNOWING TIME AND LOCATION OF BIRTHDAY
what can an astrologer possibly read from aspects


Obviously, with no time and no location
it is not possible to read aspects of Moon
nor Sun IF Sun is changing signs
nor any other planet that is changing signs

every person must be born at some time between midnight and 11:59 pm on any given day in some place on the earth.
Obviously no one would question that :smile:
By definition then, everyone must have a chart.
Quite.
But that chart cannot be drawn without the information of location and time of birth

i.e.
IF the individual has an official time of birth with a location of that birth
only then does that individual have a reliable horoscopic natal chart

IF NOT
then
that individual has a whole series of POSSIBLE CHARTS
of
all of the times
between midnight and 23:59 on any given day
Everyone does have a time they were born at and a location they were born in,
just because they don't know the exact value of these variables, doesn't mean they don't exist!
Quite. No one would argue that

HOWEVER
that is not the point in contention
the point is
that because the individual doesn't know the time
and
doesn't know the location they were born at

THEN
that individual could have been born anywhere on planet earth at any time
so
there are vast numbers of charts for every location on planet earth
as well as every time between midnight and 23:59 ON THE SAME DAY
that are possible
BUT
none of the charts are verifiable
I've attached two charts for the same time in two different locations,
you will see that each planet except the moon doesn't change much by degrees.
Exactly.
However NEITHER of those charts is the chart of any specific individual
who has provided no time and no location of birth

BOTH charts are totally speculative

because
charts with different times and different locations would show
different locations of the Moon by as much as twelve degrees

since the Moon travels a minimum of eleven degrees per 24 hours
and a maximum of around fourteen degrees per 24 hours

You will see therefore that not having a location doesn't make a big difference.
Normally when the time is unknown 12:00 pm is put in as a default,
or an approximate time if you have it.
Quite
At the very least some kind of time would have to be inputted
because it is impossible to produce a chart without a time at all

the OP is saying the LOCATION
is unknown as well

The location MAY make a big difference
because the location could be far North
or far South
or West
or East
or almost any combination of those
and so forth

furthermore,
if the two charts you posted were timed for (a) Midnight
and (b) 23:59 ON THE SAME DAY
then that would show the Moon travel is considerably more than "a few degrees" :smile:
 

astro11

Well-known member
What you are saying cannot be rationally responded to any further, and I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove because no one on the thread has expressed any support or appreciation for your posts.

My last statement to you will be that you are arguing that theoretically there are many combinations of planets in different houses possible for a given day in any given location, when I have already said the houses cannot be determined without a birth time. My point is that even without the houses, one still has a birth chart that can yield a lot of specific information.
I am telling the OP they can reliably see the meanings of planets in signs, and the aspects formed between planets, which do not depend on a birth time. If a planet could have changed signs on one's birthday, its only in this case that you can't be completely sure about the nature of the aspects made by it (trine, square, conjunction). But this is no reason to consider the whole chart incapable of giving useful information.
Further, I said that every planet EXCEPT the Moon does not change much by degrees, and its possible for the Moon to change signs if the time was unknown.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
In a natal chart, if i don't know the location and time of birthday, what aspects of personality i can read at this chart?
Nothing other than generalities
equally applicable to more than three hundred and fifty thousand other people born that same day
who quite obviously
cannot possibly all have identical personalities

that's because
without a location and without a time of birthday
it is not possible to delineate 1st house
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
Sun Sign,
Once a month Sun changes Signs
and so

not always possible to determine even the Sun Sign

If born on a day when Sun changes signs

Moon Sign,

Moon changes signs approximately every two and a half days

and so
if born on a day when Moon changes signs

then
not possible to determine Moon sign with any certainty

Venus house?
Venus house location would remain unknown

because
without a time and location of birth
it is not possible to place planets in houses


I know it's a newbie question,
but i always asked to myself
what exactly location and time define on a natal chart.
It's a good question

the horoscopic natal chart
is literally
entirely dependent on the location as well as a reliable time of birth :smile:
 

Larxene

Well-known member
Hi,

I was thinking of the idea of using the Lot of Fortune as the alternate Ascendant. The 2nd Sign from the Lot of Fortune would become the 2nd House/Place, the 3rd Sign becomes the 3rd House/Place, and so on. In this situation, I'd assume only the Whole-Sign Houses (and perhaps the Equal Houses as well) can be used. This is because using quadrant houses would present an illusion of precision.

This idea of using Fortune as an alternative Ascendant was mentioned by Valens in The Anthology. The possible things that one could read from such a chart is more limited though. The other problem is that because the Moon has an average daily velocity of 13 degrees, it is possible for the Lot of Fortune to switch signs within the course of 1 day.



Larxene Xenohart
 

katydid

Well-known member
In my experience, if someone does not know the place or time of birth, but they want to look at the person's chart, it is USUALLY in comparison to their own.

Usually it is a potential relationship, or a troublesome co-worker, or a boss , or someone that can be compared to the querent's natal chart. Even without a TOB or a location, a lot can be seen by the synastry of the planets and nodes.

I have done chart comparisons like that many times and there is a lot that can be deduced. You don't need an exact time to see if someone has their Saturn on your Moon or their Pluto on your Asc.
 

astro11

Well-known member
Synastry and composite with two people's charts can reveal a lot about the strengths, challenges, and overall karma and purpose of the relationship. You don't need a birth time or location. Very useful for understanding the inherent relationship dynamics, and understanding how much work and compromise is going to be necessary to make the relationship work.

For example if some of your personal planets like the Sun, Moon and Mercury form a hard aspect to someone else's Neptune, deception and illusion will likely reveal itself to be an issue. There is something about that person you don't see clearly, and you can misunderstand their intent or motives. There could also be a conscious intent to deceive or perhaps hide things. The other person may understand your somewhat inaccurate vision of them and try to play along with it, even though it's not really their personality. Then in the end you feel disappointed when the truth comes out. The effects are more strongly felt by the personal planet person but Neptune can still feel some of it as well, especially if there are personal planet and Neptune hard aspects in composite. I've noticed pretty large orbs still giving effects, although the tighter the orb the more powerful it will be.
 

waybread

Well-known member
It is very common to have charts with an unknown birth time. Rather than invent bogus houses, I simply input the birth time as "unknown." Using the Astrodienst free charts pages, this will give you a chart with no houses. It uses a noon default birth time, however, so you have to recognize that the moon could move back or forth 6 degrees either way.

But you really need to have some sort of location, even if it's just by country, state, or province. The reason is that half way around the world, you may be looking at a different date. You could input a guesstimate, but realize that the faster moving planets could be off by a degree. However, this should still be close enough so that you can work with planets in signs and aspects, allowing for a margin of error.

In addition to having no houses, you also won't have data points dependent upon having an accurate birth time, and hence ascendant, like the part of fortune.

I practice modern western astrology, in which aspects are really key to chart delineation. If someone has his sun in a tight square to Saturn, for example, that will tell you a lot about his major life issues (self-esteem) even if you cannot predict where in his life they are most likely to play out.

I don't think many astrologers work with heliocentric charts, but this is one system with no houses whatsoever.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Here is an example of a chart with no known birth time, although it does have a known location. It is for Eckhart Tolle, a widely published leader of the human potential movement, and author of The Power of Now.

One striking thing about this chart is Mars retrograde opposite sun. Mars retrograde people are often very hard on themselves, because all of their natural aggression is turned inward. Saturn opposite sun further fills people with self-doubt. With the sun opposition, Mars and Saturn are liable to be turned against one's sense of identity. Tolle wrote about how, as a young man, he was overcome with feelings of self-loathing until he found his spiritual pathway, which seems largely based on Buddhist principles (Jupiter-sun.)
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Moon sign may or may not be possible, since it moves so quickly and may have been moving out of a sign.
Sun sign, yes,
Venus sign and the further planets most likely and aspects between them
.

I wouldn't suggest this though.
aspects alone provide meagre tangible information

keep in mind that planets are aspecting from SPECIFIC SIGNS

and so
for example
when no time of birth AND no location of birth is provided
it is impossible to assess the influence of the Moon on any planets in Cancer
because the Moon may have changed signs at the time the birth occurred


same applies if Sun or any planet change signs on the birthday



But you really need to have some sort of location,
even if it's just by country, state, or province.
The reason is that half way around the world, you may be looking at a different date.

In addition to having no houses,
you also won't have data points dependent upon having an accurate birth time, and hence ascendant, like the part of fortune.
Quite.
The most important data point dependent upon having an accurate birthtime
IS the ascendant



Place of birth, at the very least.
The consensus is clearly that location at the very least is essential :smile:
 
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