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  #76  
Unread 08-01-2020, 08:13 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Trump became President in 2016 ONLY BECAUSE of illegal foreign interference. The Electoral and Popular votes SHOULD HAVE yielded the same result, just as they had for the 31 previous, consecutive Elections. Instead, they were off by nearly 3 million Popular votes in 2016.

Even including the 3 times prior to the 31 consecutive matchups, when there were different results, there have NEVER been different outcomes twice in a row.

Is there anyone who honestly believes that Trump won't lose the Popular-vote again, this year, and by a convincing margin?


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  #77  
Unread 08-01-2020, 08:16 PM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Sorry. Were you really hoping to convince Trump supporters not to idolize him?
It's a certain kind of personality that craves an idol. The Constitution was crafted to limit the harm that this kind of personality can do to a democracy.

While loyalty is normally commendable, I happen to think theirs is misplaced.
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  #78  
Unread 08-01-2020, 08:22 PM
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It's a certain kind of personality that craves an idol. The Constitution was crafted to limit the harm that this kind of personality can do to a democracy.

While loyalty is normally commendable, I happen to think theirs is misplaced.
Right. Moderation in all things, including loyality, when the facts don't support it.
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  #79  
Unread 08-01-2020, 09:22 PM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Dirius, why do you use LOL emoticons to discuss the deaths of 155,000 American coronavirus patients? (4.55 million confirmed cases) If you think these deaths are a subject of merriment, that is sick.

First off the Centers for Disease Control are part of the Executive branch of government ( Department of Health and Human Services) which the President heads. Ditto for the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, headed by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Trump has consistently refused to take these experts' advice.

A president has a lot of persuasive power (nicknamed the "bully pulpit.") Tragically, Trump has used it to consistently undercut the very measures necessary to curb the spread of CV-19 among his fan base. It's as though he has a death wish-- or actually thinks a self-proclaimed "winner" can't fumble the most important challenge of his presidency-- with tragic results.

I don't know how much you know about basic epidemiology and the demography of the US.

Some of the first cases of CV-19 showed up in NYC and its commutershed of northern NJ. These are really dense population centers, where many people commute to work by packed subways, live in apartment buildings, and work in places that tend to be full of people. These densely populated conditions make a contagious disease spread faster than in, say, in lightly populated, low-density rural Kansas.

Large cities understandably tend to dominate their states' politics. Most of the people in Illinois, for example, live in the Chicago area. Republicans simply didn't make a case in recent elections that they would do better for urban folks than the Democrats would.

Sadly one of the major hot spots has been the Navajo reservation in Republican-dominated Arizona. Republican-dominated Florida and Texas currently have some of fastest recent increases infection rates in the nation.

Keep in mind that this pandemic isn't over yet.
Ok good so you agree democrat states were doing much worse then?

While some states have higher population density, they also have larger centers for disease prevention and more doctors to attend patients.

Sure they have larger population density, but they also have more hospitals per person, more resources and more doctors, and they received help from the federal government. There is no reason why the death count should be higher.

What you are trying to do is defend a bunch of inept blue politicians that did a horrible job, like sending infected patients into nursing homes, or not closing down subways, for the sake of your political position, thats why I LOL
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  #80  
Unread 08-01-2020, 09:34 PM
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Ok good so you agree democrat states were doing much worse then?

While some states have higher population density, they also have larger centers for disease prevention and more doctors to attend patients.

Sure they have larger population density, but they also have more hospitals per person, more resources and more doctors, and they received help from the federal government. There is no reason why the death count should be higher.

What you are trying to do is defend a bunch of inept blue politicians that did a horrible job, like sending infected patients into nursing homes, or not closing down subways, for the sake of your political position, thats why I LOL
In the State of New York, with VERY high population density, the vast majority of deaths attributable to the virus were in NYC. In rural upstate New York, with very low population density, very few deaths were reported.

Both NYC and upstate New York, have the same Democratic governor. I find it laughable that anyone would dismiss population density as the reason the virus first affected the Blue States so strongly.

Lack of precautions is why it's now affecting the more rural Red States more strongly, while the deaths in the Blue States have been sharply on the decline.
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  #81  
Unread 08-01-2020, 09:53 PM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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In the State of New York, with VERY high population density, the vast majority of deaths attributable to the virus were in NYC. In rural upstate New York, with very low population density, very few deaths were reported.

Both NYC and upstate New York, have the same Democratic governor. I find it laughable that anyone would dismiss population density as the reason the virus first affected the Blue States so strongly.

Lack of precautions is why it's now affecting the more rural Red States more strongly, while the deaths in the Blue States have been sharply on the decline.
Not every large city has had such a drastic death ratio. Florida, California, Texas, etc. all have big cities with large population centers, and not nearly the same number of deaths.

NY and NJ have almost 4 times the number of deaths.
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  #82  
Unread 08-01-2020, 10:07 PM
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Not every large city has had such a drastic death ratio. Florida, California, Texas, etc. all have big cities with large population centers, and not nearly the same number of deaths.

NY and NJ have almost 4 times the number of deaths.
Are you crediting Governor Newsom?
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  #83  
Unread 08-01-2020, 10:23 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Here's another factor: Reliance on public transportation is greatest in the most densely populated city in the U.S., which is NYC, and in the most densely populated State, N.J.
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  #84  
Unread 08-01-2020, 10:29 PM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Seattle was initially a Covid-19 hotspot, and relies heavily on crowded public transportation.
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  #85  
Unread 08-02-2020, 05:19 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Ok good so you agree democrat states were doing much worse then?

While some states have higher population density, they also have larger centers for disease prevention and more doctors to attend patients.

Sure they have larger population density, but they also have more hospitals per person, more resources and more doctors, and they received help from the federal government. There is no reason why the death count should be higher.

What you are trying to do is defend a bunch of inept blue politicians that did a horrible job, like sending infected patients into nursing homes, or not closing down subways, for the sake of your political position, thats why I LOL
Dirius, I don't think you catch the complexity of the situation, in your dubious efforts to politicize a public health crisis. Your LOL emoticons are just bizarre in light of a very un-funny pandemic-- and your misguided assumptions.

Unchecked contagious diseases like CV-19 spread more rapidly in densely populated areas with more people coming into closer contact with one another. In NYC/NJ, think about commuters on the subway during rush hour, people living in large apartment buildings, more people out on the sidewalks, &c.

[Because subways transport essential workers, they cannot easily be shut down altogether.]

This situation will pertain in any country. Think of the early outbreaks in Italy, with multi-generational families sharing living quarters, or the current major outbreak in poor neighborhoods in Brazil. It's not dependent upon the US Democratic Party.

Urban centers do tend to have more health care providers and facilities than rural areas, but then people go to the hospital after they get sick, not before. They're just lucky to have them handy. A large well-equipped urban hospital might have better recovery rates than a local rural hospital, but there's not a one-to-one correspondence here. A lot depends upon whether the patients are high-risk, for example.

Large cities tend to have a higher concentration of low-income people. In the US this can mean poorer health outcomes when they do get sick. Which has been the case in the US.

Data on CV-19 cases and deaths tend to be cumulative and not indicative of the most recent trends, but you can see that Florida, with a Republican governor, has moved up to the highest category of cases/100K people, which is out of proportion to its population ranking.
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases

Your logical fallacy seems to be that if more people voted Republican, their rates of coronavirus infection would decline. Which is not happening.

I haven't seen anything on this, but my guess is that part of the reason why the death rate is so high in red-state Arizona and Florida is that these are retirement destinations, with elderly people being in a higher-risk category.

I suggest you focus on the reasons why right-wingers like yourself have not convinced most of America's urban poor that the Republican party is the best option for them.
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  #86  
Unread 08-02-2020, 05:31 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Not every large city has had such a drastic death ratio. Florida, California, Texas, etc. all have big cities with large population centers, and not nearly the same number of deaths.

NY and NJ have almost 4 times the number of deaths.
These states were the earliest hit. NYC in particular has a high percentage of poor people who have been hit disproportionately hard.

Just for example, a low-income family housed in a small apartment can't socially distance from one another when one person gets exposed to the virus, let alone quarantine a sick individual in a separate room-- which they don't have. So when one family member gets sick, they're all likely to get sick.

Most of the data that I've seen are cumulative for 2020, not indicative of changing state rankings in recent weeks. But see:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...-day-1.5047424

David makes an excellent point. Lightly infected upstate New York has the same Democratic governor as NYC. This wouldn't be the case if the state's predominant political party were the independent variable.

So far as your inapt LOL emoticons go, David and I would get the last laugh-- if we somehow thought a pandemic was a laughing matter.
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  #87  
Unread 08-02-2020, 06:22 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Bla Bla Bla Bla...


Data on CV-19 cases and deaths tend to be cumulative and not indicative of the most recent trends, but you can see that Florida, with a Republican governor, has moved up to the highest category of cases/100K people, which is out of proportion to its population ranking.
https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases

Your logical fallacy seems to be that if more people voted Republican, their rates of coronavirus infection would decline. Which is not happening.

I haven't seen anything on this, but my guess is that part of the reason why the death rate is so high in red-state Arizona and Florida is that these are retirement destinations, with elderly people being in a higher-risk category.
Bla bla bla

Bla bla bla.
This small fragment of your post is indicative of why your giant wall-text is just a strawman designed to deflect the conversation, because the facts are against you. You keep talking about infection rates, which isn't my point.

I'm not talking about the rate of infenction -

I'm talking about the death rate by region -

In Florida there are 480.000 infected individuals, and around 7.000 deaths. This means the florida death rate for covid19 is 1,45%.

In New York there are 420.000 infected individuals, and around 32.000 deaths. This means the new york death rate for covid19 is 7,6%

Florida has a lower death rate and lower death number, despite a higher number infected individuals. The NY state performance and response in regards to covid19 is pathetic compared to Florida.

-- Your entire post in an attempt to strawman my argument to imply I'm talking about infected individuals. I am not. This is why I lol at you.
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  #88  
Unread 08-02-2020, 06:54 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

California and Florida are, by and large, MUCH healthier places to live than New York and New Jersey.

The reason for more deaths is about the immune systems of those who contracted the virus.

The hospitals in New York and New Jersey were completely overwhelmed by the number of patients with weak immune systems.

These deaths are not something Trump-supporters should be gloating about!

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  #89  
Unread 08-02-2020, 07:03 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Going by deaths from Covid-19 per 100,000 of a State's total population, Arizona has twice the death rate of California. N.Y. and New Jersey have 7 times the death rate, & Florida has a 50% higher death rate than California.

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  #90  
Unread 08-02-2020, 07:09 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Back on thread, if the Electoral College vote and the national Popular-vote don't match their results in 2020, then the Election was rigged by the "winner" of the Electoral vote.

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  #91  
Unread 08-02-2020, 07:40 AM
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Post Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Not every large city has had such a drastic death ratio. Florida, California, Texas, etc. all have big cities with large population centers, and not nearly the same number of deaths.

NY and NJ have almost 4 times the number of deaths.
Yes, population density is an issue, but CA with 40 million people explains why we have the most COVID-19 cases of any state now, the difference is CA was the first to locked down on March 19th and we managed to reached 400,000 in 4 months, not within 2 months like more dense NY state but with their 19-20 million residents, the majority of them live in New York City (8-9 million).

NY Gov Andrew Cuomo is a hero to many, then you have critics stating he was responsible for so many deaths in his state: he ordered elderly patients from hospitals back into nursing homes to further spread COVID-19 so easily to a high-risk demographic group. We know Cuomo reduced the infectious disease reproduction rate to be the lowest in the country, he has to explain why his state ironically turned out to have the highest fatality rate and deaths as well.

Similarly, CA Gov Gavin Newsom is blamed for allowing conservative counties in the southern half to opened up earlier than they should, they comparably have more cases than the SF Bay area which has a separate reopening plan. There is more population in southern counties though, like the 10 million in LA county (the city itself has 4 million) and indeed the state's most COVID-19 cases.
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  #92  
Unread 08-02-2020, 07:48 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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This situation will pertain in any country. Think of the early outbreaks in Italy, with multi-generational families sharing living quarters, or the current major outbreak in poor neighborhoods in Brazil. It's not dependent upon the US Democratic Party.
China has the world's highest population at 1.4 billion, but they are 30th in the number of COVID-19 cases in the world, I would think they'll have the highest since the disease originated from there (Wuhan, Hubei). But China and East Asia dealt with SARS (COVID-19 is a SARS coronavirus) and MERS (similar nature coronavirus) outbreaks in the past, so their governments learned a lot on disease control in highly populated centers in their countries.

The reason why Peru, Chile, Mexico, South Africa and esp. Brazil are hard-hit is third world conditions affecting health care, how many people live in one home or in one block, and government abilities to handle or manage a pandemic from getting worse. Whenever Jair Bolsonaro recovers from his COVID-19 case, will he take the pandemic seriously and actually put an end to this crisis there?

And like Italy, Spain is known for an active social life, esp in March (human cold coronavirus season, but it's warmer in Spain) when the pandemic first reached, overwhelmed and heavily infected over 1% of their populations, counting possible number of people with COVID-19 antibodies. An infectious disease is easier spread in a culture with smaller personal space than Anglo-Germanic nations (the UK's COVID-19 situation was made worse by a delay in lockdown compared to the rest of Europe, except Sweden never locked down) and kissing cheeks is a customary gesture similar to handshakes in the USA and many western countries.
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  #93  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:14 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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California and Florida are, by and large, MUCH healthier places to live than New York and New Jersey.

The reason for more deaths is about the immune systems of those who contracted the virus.

The hospitals in New York and New Jersey were completely overwhelmed by the number of patients with weak immune systems.

These deaths are not something Trump-supporters should be gloating about!
So you are saying: it is not Trump's fault.
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  #94  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:15 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
This situation will pertain in any country. Think of the early outbreaks in Italy, with multi-generational families sharing living quarters, or the current major outbreak in poor neighborhoods in Brazil. It's not dependent upon the US Democratic Party.
China has the world's highest population at 1.4 billion, but they are 30th in the number of COVID-19 cases in the world, I would think they'll have the highest since the disease originated from there (Wuhan, Hubei). But China and East Asia dealt with SARS (COVID-19 is a SARS coronavirus) and MERS (similar nature coronavirus) outbreaks in the past, so their governments learned a lot on disease control in highly populated centers in their countries.

The reason why Peru, Chile, Mexico, South Africa and esp. Brazil are hard-hit is third world conditions affecting health care, how many people live in one home or in one block, and government abilities to handle or manage a pandemic from getting worse. Whenever Jair Bolsonaro recovers from his COVID-19 case, will he take the pandemic seriously and actually put an end to this crisis there?

And like Italy, Spain is known for an active social life, esp in March (human cold coronavirus season, but it's warmer in Spain) when the pandemic first reached, overwhelmed and heavily infected over 1% of their populations, counting possible number of people with COVID-19 antibodies. An infectious disease is easier spread in a culture with smaller personal space than Anglo-Germanic nations (the UK's COVID-19 situation was made worse by a delay in lockdown compared to the rest of Europe, except Sweden never locked down) and kissing cheeks is a customary gesture similar to handshakes in the USA and many western countries.
Another strawman.

Not talking about infection rate. I'm talking about death rate.

But keep missquoting
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  #95  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:20 AM
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Another strawman.

Not talking about infection rate. I'm talking about death rate.

But keep missquoting
What accounts for the weaker immune systems in N.Y. and New Jersey, especially compared to California?
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  #96  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:22 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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What accounts for the weaker immune systems in N.Y. and New Jersey, especially compared to California?
Show me a graph comparing immune systems in the average californian vs other states and then we can talk about your theory.
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  #97  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:27 AM
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I'm not the one missquoting others and attributing false statements.

CapAquis posted "Dirius wrote" when I didn't write such statement. Thats why he didn't use the /quote marks. Its a false statement.
No, I mean, your basic argument is so flawed, it's pointless.

These deaths aren't about politics. They're about population density, public transportation, and weak immune systems.

And, you are gloating over the fact that the highest death rates are in New York and New Jersey, because they're Blue States with Democratic governors.
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  #98  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:37 AM
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Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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No, I mean, your basic argument is so flawed, it's pointless.

These deaths aren't about politics. They're about population density, public transportation, and weak immune systems.

And, you are gloating over the fact that the highest death rates are in New York and New Jersey, because they're Blue States with Democratic governors.
I posted data which shows that certain blue states have much higher death rates than most red states.

This is fact, not an argument.
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  #99  
Unread 08-02-2020, 08:37 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Wait a minute....how did a thread about the Electoral College system turn into "Covid-19 Deathwatch" ?
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Unread 08-02-2020, 08:38 AM
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Smile Re: Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

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I posted data which shows that certain blue states have much higher death rates than most red states.

This is fact, not an argument.
It's a pointless factoid. Why even bring it up?
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