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  #176  
Unread 03-19-2020, 02:36 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

There is no definitive scholarship on who or what Asherah was. Possibly the term had more than one meaning, including being something like an idol or tree that could be cut down. Exodus 34:13, Judges 6:25.

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  #177  
Unread 03-19-2020, 02:50 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Petosiris, here's what I wrote:


Here is the catechism on Mary: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p123a9p6.htm



Sophia (Hebrew Hochma, a feminine word) describes herself in Proverbs 8:22-30. Sounds divine to me.

Please read Raphael Patai, The Hebrew Goddess. Patai was an ordained rabbi, with doctorates in ancient semitic languages and the history of the Near East.

Of course, this would be heretical in your mindscape.

What does this mean: "Catholics are people of God in Babylon."?

Petosiris, what is your Christian denomination?
What do you mean my mindscape? I thought you were a Jewish convert and knew the basics of avodah zarah. I am not in any denomination currently, but I am a Unitarian.
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  #178  
Unread 03-19-2020, 02:52 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
God is perfect in power and wisdom, so there is a reason he chose to refer to himself with singular masculine pronouns. Same as with the maternal imagery in Isaiah etc. To think otherwise, is to rebel against God.
Something to think about is that God apparently dislikes people who second-guess him. Proverbs 30: 6-16, also the book of Job, where people are warned not to imagine they can understand God's decisions.

Quote:
We can speculate why this is so, knowing that Adam and Eve were both created in the image of God, but I don't think we should question it. Paul in 1 Cor. 11:3 says that God <who is always the Father> is the head of his beloved Anointed, who is the head of the man, who is the head of his wife. There is clearly subordination and servitude of each person to someone, except God, despite what trinitarians and feminists claim otherwise. And this is clear in all of Paul's letters - Ephesians 5:22-30, Colossians 3:18-19, 1 Timothy 2:9-15. So it seems that the abundance of masculine language may stress our subordinate role to God (for the prophets say we are either brides or whores), except in minor cases, as for example concerning his steadfast mercy, patience, love and compassion, which are qualities that we adore in exemplar women.
See Galatians 3:28.

Many denominations believe in the trinity. What is your denomination?

But also, Hebrew is a highly gendered language. Most of the OT/Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew (I can't speak for the Aramaic or Greek) where "you" is written in the masculine singular. In Hebrew, a mixed male-female group is referred to as the masculine plural, even if you've got 1 man and 100 women.

We often don't know exactly what was meant by words penned 2500 years ago. There is a lot of slippage in translation into modern languages like English.

This highly gendered feature of the Hebrew was linguistically and perhaps culturally essential during the Iron Age. But today?
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Last edited by waybread; 03-19-2020 at 03:01 AM.
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  #179  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:04 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Something to think about is that God apparently dislikes people who second-guess him. Proverbs 30: 6-16, also the book of Job, where people are warned not to imagine they can understand God's decisions.



See Galatians 3:28.

Many denominations believe in the trinity. What is your denomination?

But also, Hebrew is a highly gendered language. Most of the OT/Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew (I can't speak for the Aramaic or Greek) where "you" is written in the masculine singular. In Hebrew, a mixed male-female group is referred to as the masculine plural, even if you've got 1 man and 100 women.

We often don't know exactly what was meant by words penned 2500 years ago. There is a lot of slippage in translation into modern languages like English.

This highly gendered feature of the Hebrew
My native language and Greek are also highly gendered. It is why we don't translate a book from Hebrew as ''he''. But the word Father is in special way gendered, and it would be a travesty to refer to God as ''she'' in this situation. Besides, if you claim that ''he'' has no gender connotation (because God is incorporeal), then changing it with ''she'' has no effect other than supporting an agenda.
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  #180  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:09 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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...

As you may ask what this has to do with women's spaces, consider how you'd feel if your girlfriend, wife, granddaughter or mother were in a bathroom with a man in a dress.
Because most public women's restrooms have stalls with locking doors on them, I could probably handle it. People in the public part of the restroom are normally fully clothed and just washing their hands. I assume this person really identified as female.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #181  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:11 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Something to think about is that God apparently dislikes people who second-guess him. Proverbs 30: 6-16, also the book of Job, where people are warned not to imagine they can understand God's decisions.
This is exactly what I am saying with ''We can speculate why this is so, knowing that Adam and Eve were both created in the image of God, but I don't think we should question it.'' I gave my own opinion, which I don't believe it is necessary to believe in, but I said that we should refer to the Father as ''he'', simply because he does it.
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  #182  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:36 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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What do you mean my mindscape? I thought you were a Jewish convert and knew the basics of avodah zarah. I am not in any denomination currently, but I am a Unitarian.
If you are not currently a member of a Christian denomination with a doctrine you would be required to follow, let alone if you were raised as a Unitarian, I fail to see how and why you identify yourself as such an authority on Christianity.

You are expressing personal opinions, which is cool. But not necessarily

You must be aware that in North American Judaism there are basically 3 major denominations: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. Some congregations serve members whose beliefs are more at the overlap between two groups (Conservative-Orthodox, or Conservative-Reform.) Then Orthodox Judaism has more divisions within its ranks. My practice (and that of my Jewish ex-husband) was more at the Conservative-Reform part of the spectrum.

Serious study of the Talmud is usually not undertaken by Conservative-Reform Jews (unless they study for the rabbinate or have a particular interest.) It would be more a part of an Orthodox religious education.

To Orthodox Jews, the Talmud has scriptural status. Reform Jews would view it as part of their heritage, but not as binding.

Much of what is in the Avodah Zarah section of the Talmud is not really a concern today, because we don't live in a world where some of the ancient pagan practices it mentions still exist.

Some of it does-- kosher wine has a special place, to distinguish it from wine that might be used in a non-Jewish religious practice. An Orthodox cook might have occasion to learn how to render kitchen utensils kosher.

Technically Judaism would hold Christianity to be a form of idolatry, in worship given to Jesus, and in prayer to religious icons or statues as is practiced in some denominations.

But 99% of Jews today live in the modern real world, where they anticipate cordial relationships with their Christian neighbours.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 03-19-2020 at 03:40 AM.
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  #183  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:43 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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See Galatians 3:28.
I quoted Galatians 3:28 in its actual biblical meaning on the previous page. It is one of the most abused verses of the Bible, because although all are one in the image of God (that is in Christ) and have equal standing in the kingdom of God by faith, they continue to have different roles in the present age - 1 Corinthians 7:18, Colossians 3:18-25
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  #184  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:45 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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If you are not currently a member of a Christian denomination with a doctrine you would be required to follow, let alone if you were raised as a Unitarian, I fail to see how and why you identify yourself as such an authority on Christianity.

You are expressing personal opinions, which is cool. But not necessarily

You must be aware that in North American Judaism there are basically 3 major denominations: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. Some congregations serve members whose beliefs are more at the overlap between two groups (Conservative-Orthodox, or Conservative-Reform.) Then Orthodox Judaism has more divisions within its ranks. My practice (and that of my Jewish ex-husband) was more at the Conservative-Reform part of the spectrum.

Serious study of the Talmud is usually not undertaken by Conservative-Reform Jews (unless they study for the rabbinate or have a particular interest.) It would be more a part of an Orthodox religious education.

To Orthodox Jews, the Talmud has scriptural status. Reform Jews would view it as part of their heritage, but not as binding.

Much of what is in the Avodah Zarah section of the Talmud is not really a concern today, because we don't live in a world where some of the ancient pagan practices it mentions still exist.

Some of it does-- kosher wine has a special place, to distinguish it from wine that might be used in a non-Jewish religious practice. An Orthodox cook might have occasion to learn how to render kitchen utensils kosher.

Technically Judaism would hold Christianity to be a form of idolatry, in worship given to Jesus, and in prayer to religious icons or statues as is practiced in some denominations.

But 99% of Jews today live in the modern real world, where they anticipate cordial relationships with their Christian neighbours.
I don't pray to Jesus or to religious icons, although I was raised to do so. I turned from idols to serve the living God, the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ. That being said, I believe in and pray in the name of Jesus Christ, which is considered heretical according to your teachers.

Jews also have the highest % of atheists in the USA, that is 50% compared to 10-15% of other religious groups - https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...god/50553958/1

Unitarianism isn't my personal opinion or something I came up with. There are still lots of Biblical Unitarian folks, and historically so-called ''Socinians'', ''Photinians'', ''Paulinists'', ''Theodotians'' ''Ebionites'', ''Nazarenes'' held my belief in the human Jesus. Also, personally I don't object to JW and so-called ''Arian'' folks who are also Unitarians, but with belief in pre-existent Jesus. JWs also don't pray to Jesus, but only in his name. I am speaking on behalf of all of them. The Trinity is a fourth century development.

Jews and Unitarians historically had very good relationship compared to say Reformed or Catholics and Jews (and Unitarians).

Last edited by petosiris; 03-19-2020 at 04:36 AM.
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  #185  
Unread 03-19-2020, 03:58 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, we get glimpses in the Bible of a God who is far more powerful and omniscient than human beings can possibly imagine. See Isaiah 55:8-9 on the impossibility of humans truly understanding God's ways and thoughts. See also God's rebuke in Job 38-40.

So coming across as highly dogmatic on God's intentions regarding gender is a piece of hubris.

A lot depends upon how one experiences the Bible. I don't take it literally. I do think it contains a lot of wisdom and a code of ethics. I think it was written by deeply devout men who wrote in the idioms of their day. In the Iron Age Near East, a king and a father were symbols of power and authority.

Then maybe we have to ask who or what we mean by the concept "God."

In my thinking, a God who creates the entire universe cannot possibly be limited by our notions of the human body and two sexes.

A quote from St. Augustine: "I you understood Him, it would not be God."
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #186  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:04 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I once had a friend who was studying rabbinical ordnation. He remarked that he thought he was an atheist!

Judaism does have a n educational history of questioning and probing as a means to get closer to the truth.

Judaism focuses extensively on what people do, rather than what people believe. The principal belief is that God alone is to be worshipped.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #187  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:07 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I believe in the plain meaning of scriptures, ''wisdom'' in Proverbs 8 or the fourth beast of Daniel is clearly not literal, but allegorical. I don't claim I understand God as he understands me, but I do think I understand from Deut. 6:4 that he is one and that he has a name, and that he is a jealous God (Ex. 20:5) and that he doesn't want us to even mention other gods (Ex. 23:13).
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  #188  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:13 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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This is exactly what I am saying with ''We can speculate why this is so, knowing that Adam and Eve were both created in the image of God, but I don't think we should question it.'' I gave my own opinion, which I don't believe it is necessary to believe in, but I said that we should refer to the Father as ''he'', simply because he does it.
Do you have a problem with simply calling God our Parent? English is not such a gendered language.

What you're missing Petosiris, is how alienated many women feel about all this triumphalism of masculinity. Catholicism at least gave women role models, not just with Mary (as feminine, not feminist) and female saints; but more importantly as actual women who could take on religious vocations and even become managers of convents, abbeys, &c. Catholicism still discriminates against women, but actually through its religious orders for women, it gave many an opportunity for careers in nursing, teaching, and handicrafts, as well as a religious calling.

Maybe it would be helpful to really think through what "being a man" or "being a woman" actually means to you.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #189  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:16 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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I quoted Galatians 3:28 in its actual biblical meaning on the previous page. It is one of the most abused verses of the Bible, because although all are one in the image of God (that is in Christ) and have equal standing in the kingdom of God by faith, they continue to have different roles in the present age - 1 Corinthians 7:18, Colossians 3:18-25
Sorry, but those different roles for real people were written in the context of Roman society in ancient times.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #190  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:20 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Do you have a problem with simply calling God our Parent? English is not such a gendered language.
Yes, I would. Jesus taught the people to pray to our Father in heaven. Do you have problem simply eating pork or not keeping the Sabbath? Don't you perceive there are great spiritual forces at battle here?
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  #191  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:35 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, I think your knowledge of Jewish life could use some expansion.

I noted the 3 major denominations of North American Judaism. You might look up Reform Judaism if you are unfamiliar with it. It views the dietary laws as optional. Many Reform Jews attend synagogue, but they might do so on Friday night rather than Saturday morning.

I have been inactive in Judaism for many years now.

What "great spiritual forces at battle" do you mean?

Here. The NT talks a lot about love. This song is for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUaxVQPohlU
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #192  
Unread 03-19-2020, 04:42 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Petosiris, I think your knowledge of Jewish life could use some expansion.

I noted the 3 major denominations of North American Judaism. You might look up Reform Judaism if you are unfamiliar with it. It views the dietary laws as optional. Many Reform Jews attend synagogue, but they might do so on Friday night rather than Saturday morning.

I have been inactive in Judaism for many years now.

What "great spiritual forces at battle" do you mean?

Here. The NT talks a lot about love. This song is for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUaxVQPohlU
I know this much. I've also heard and read of Karaite Jews, have you?
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  #193  
Unread 03-19-2020, 05:55 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I think I've shown that wisdom is a personification (not another creator - Is. 42:5), that singular masculine pronouns and names in the sacred scriptures are irrevocable, that Paul believed there were differences in godly living for Jews, Gentiles, slaves, freemen, men and women, that I established my ''doctrinal credentials'', and that I am not an idol worshipper even according to your teachers (yes, I do not benefit from idolatry either). I think that the last two methods were an interesting way of making your point.

It is a rebellion against God who doesn't think his words are optional - ''Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.'' - hear the prophet of Deut. 18:18-19 and listen to him!

Last edited by petosiris; 03-19-2020 at 06:07 AM.
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  #194  
Unread 03-19-2020, 06:09 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVIFMbwxOc
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  #195  
Unread 03-19-2020, 06:51 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Is this worse than Ariana Grande? This is disturbing.
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  #196  
Unread 03-19-2020, 07:05 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Is this worse than Ariana Grande? This is disturbing.
Lel
it was a good song when I was 13 years old
now its just kind of obnoxious
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  #197  
Unread 03-19-2020, 07:10 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Lel
it was a good song when I was 13 years old
now its just kind of obnoxious
You were watching and listening to weebo stuff at 13? Poor kid.
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  #198  
Unread 03-19-2020, 07:12 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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You were watching and listening to weebo stuff at 13? Poor kid.
how does that make me poor?
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  #199  
Unread 03-19-2020, 09:13 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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how does that make me poor?
Weird weebo stuff during early puberty, might have made you susceptible to the fetish that must not be named.
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  #200  
Unread 03-19-2020, 12:33 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Most feminists of my generation were strongly supportive of men痴 right to be something other than the role of man defined to be acceptable by patriarchy.
I agree, but I seem to remember a parting of ways. I can't remember why, it just sparked a memory of a group of which I have not heard about in so many years. Did they part?
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