What is the framework through which we assess temperament

I feel like this part of astrology has been and will continue to be the hardest domain for me to assess.

I'll explain why. Lots of astrologer's when talking of temperaments, they specified some rules. For example:

Born in the winter despite your sign, there's a phlagmetic vibe to you,
spring-saungine
summer-choleric
fall-meloncholic


Then you have moon phases.

Then you have this general argument of whether or not or how sun, asc and moon signs and aspects work with eachother to create the persona.

For example it is generally agreed that the sun is your personality/what you put your energy in, moon is how you react, and asc is how you look like/come off to as other(the face you put up for the world to see). But many people simply say I relate more to my asc, sun, or moon.


But then there's the argument that aspects are superior to any sign.

But how do we assess temperament. How do we tell someone, this is how your personality is. If at most we'll get 80 percent right if we are lucky.

But here's another question.

Planets have temperaments.

So if we were to assess personality through sun, how would we do that?

How different is Sun conjunct pluto from sun conjunct mars conjunct neptune(if neptune is phlagmetic, and mars is choleric and pluto is said to have both attributes)? And what if they are in the same element, both born in winter time?

I also say this because there was a study indicating that mars and neptune creates psychologists and I will post the link for anyone that wants to see it. So for me this seems to me like the marrying of choleric and phlagmetic kind of like pluto.

How different are sun conjunct neptune from sun conjunct moon and jupiter?

I can't think of any other combinations that will make up a similar personality trait to another planet/sign. But insight on this topic will be nice.

What I'm trying to say is by the virtue of the composition of the temperaments involved itself(the mixture), is it possible to have a very similar manifestation of personality traits? And I'm not speaking of predictive astrology, simply in regards to the general temperament.

Hi,
Your queries appeared to be from the traditional view of astrology. I thought you'd get a reponse from that quarter.

I study astrology throught its modern perspective, although there are times when I give significance to traditional above modern rulerships (within Sun and Moon conflicts). I can only offer a reply through that perspective.

Assessment of temperament is found in the elements; Fire, Earth, Air, and Water. Each sign is a 'temperamental' development upon the previous sign in the same element through cardinal, fixed and mutable importance.
We speak of a 'firey temperament' - actively spirited?
Earth deals with physical tangibility - matter in all its various forms.
Air is what goes on only through the intangibility of mental expression,
Water is the non-physical temperament expression of the feeling nature.

Planets have temperaments.

Click to expand...

I believe this is a view from traditional astrology ? As far as I am aware it is not a consideration with modern astrology teaching.

Planets denote energy functions; what they 'do'. How they do it is expressed through the traits of character and temperament within the sign they are in. E.g., Mars represents active energy. In Fire it can be highly temper-amental of spirit; its energy will be expressed physically in/with Earth; it will express itself though mental activity in Air; and through the flowing of feeling in Water. As ruler of Aries, it will show fire in its energy, yet Scorpio's influence will give it much more depth of expression through the water element.

Born in the winter despite your sign, there's a phlagmetic vibe to you,
spring-saungine
summer-choleric
fall-meloncholic

Click to expand...

The humours have little to do with the seasons as such.

Fire= choleric - quick,
Earth = melancholic -slow,
Air = sanguine -agile,
Water is phlegmatic - ??? (likened to apathy?)

What I'm trying to say is by the virtue of the composition of the temperaments involved itself(the mixture), is it possible to have a very similar manifestation of personality traits?

Click to expand...

I would personally say not because each sign and planet denotes that which is NOT found in another. Mix apples, pears, apricots, oranges, lemons and bananas and you'd get a tasty fruit salad in which individual taste might be present. Yet you could never say a banana is similar to a lemon.

Hope this is slightly clearer. If you are studying traditional astrology (although the 'modern 'outer planets are not included/interpretted), a query on the traditional board might receive a more detailed and understandable response for you.

Whole chart. Whole chart.

The planetary patterns are said to describe "temperament type". They provide a good starting point.

The word temperament comes from the Latin "to mix, to temper". Temperament reflects the mixture, balance of the different elements, qualities, etc., that determines how each of us meets life. And that entails the whole chart.

If we look carefully at the universe, we see that it is One. Nothing stands outside the universe; everything is contained within it. And everything within it participates in the whole.

You are a universe, the microcosm. Subject to the same laws as the macrocosm. Everything within you participates in the whole, and affects the whole.

Frisiangal said:

Hi,
Your queries appeared to be from the traditional view of astrology. I thought you'd get a reponse from that quarter.

I study astrology throught its modern perspective, although there are times when I give significance to traditional above modern rulerships (within Sun and Moon conflicts). I can only offer a reply through that perspective.

Assessment of temperament is found in the elements; Fire, Earth, Air, and Water. Each sign is a 'temperamental' development upon the previous sign in the same element through cardinal, fixed and mutable importance.
We speak of a 'firey temperament' - actively spirited?
Earth deals with physical tangibility - matter in all its various forms.
Air is what goes on only through the intangibility of mental expression,
Water is the non-physical temperament expression of the feeling nature.


I believe this is a view from traditional astrology ? As far as I am aware it is not a consideration with modern astrology teaching.

Planets denote energy functions; what they 'do'. How they do it is expressed through the traits of character and temperament within the sign they are in. E.g., Mars represents active energy. In Fire it can be highly temper-amental of spirit; its energy will be expressed physically in/with Earth; it will express itself though mental activity in Air; and through the flowing of feeling in Water. As ruler of Aries, it will show fire in its energy, yet Scorpio's influence will give it much more depth of expression through the water element.



The humours have little to do with the seasons as such.

Fire= choleric - quick,
Earth = melancholic -slow,
Air = sanguine -agile,
Water is phlegmatic - ??? (likened to apathy?)



I would personally say not because each sign and planet denotes that which is NOT found in another. Mix apples, pears, apricots, oranges, lemons and bananas and you'd get a tasty fruit salad in which individual taste might be present. Yet you could never say a banana is similar to a lemon.

Hope this is slightly clearer. If you are studying traditional astrology (although the 'modern 'outer planets are not included/interpretted), a query on the traditional board might receive a more detailed and understandable response for you.

Click to expand...

I think in some ways I agree with your reply and in some ways I don't. And I'll explain why. Half the people I know don't feel or feel like they personify their sun/moon signs when those are and should be the most focal point of their personality.

2nd reason I don't is due to gaquelen's study which indicated that planets in the cardinals show up when it comes to someone's career aka the archetype they play in the world.

The other reason why I don't agree with this totally is because another study if you go to my other forum about intelligence, a study was done on intelligence and literally planets in signs that weren't supposed to be intelligent or shouldn't have gotten results actually had.

Saturn in gemini, jupiter in third house, mercury quintile uranus being a few.

Another astrologer called Santos Bonnaci created a medical astrology table and yes he did find that saturn in aries relates to head issues.

So yes there does seem to be this over arching theme of a food salad and each person having different combinations and flavours, with it's energy field either attracting or repelling many things away from you.

For example: One has a chart, which is significantly ruled by sun(it's aspects planets, lunar mansions, house, and sign) moon and asc and it's all what I mentioned. Then you have mars, mercury, and venus also as players. And each has their own very little agenda and all of them control different domains. Moon is the mind, emotions, receptivitiy. Sun is where we focus our energy onto. Asc is how we present our-self.

I'll give you my own example, I have sun conjunct(Wide orb) mars and neptune in Capricorn in the fourth house. It's also in a nakshatra of appas(which was a mermaid like goddess in vedic literature). Not a single person will not associate me with the neptunian archetype. I'm sweet, I'm too cute and innocent etc. But I work really hard. But that isn't projected out as much as the neptune energy and even the mars energy you'd say is deluded in neptune and it's very similar nakshatra. Now that cap is a female sign and so is the house, I'm very feminine.

So see sun is persona and what I mentioned above is something I can't help but be. I'm sweet, and I like working a little intensely toward goals but i will never could repress my ideal side. And often times I will fight and work toward passionately toward minute projects in which my mind has huge implications. That's the idealism. I'm also an INFP. My moon is in taurus and sun in cap, some astrologers would say I have no imagination at all.

Think about the chart as parties with ruling each domain. If they have the same agenda, this will be apparent as day and ice what that person is is just that.

If one party has fixed energy or has aspects, signs and houses that indicate that that party is like that. That means this element is going to stand out in that person's personality and that person will have different sides to them.

This is one of the reasons the intelligence study saw that mercury quintile uranus and jupiter in 3rd house both have a similar agenda that of the intellect being strong because it's kind of like a signature. Now if the rest of the sign is air signs, they will promote that jupiter in the 3rd house/mercury quintile uranus into the fore front.

But then again sometimes it gets complicated with other things like nakshatras and maybe fixed points if some use them. I've found Algol to be powerful and accurate.

Hope that makes sense and let me know what you think.

If let's say someone has mercury conjunct uranus, maybe jupiter in the mix in the third in gemini for example. But the same person also has a venus opposite pluto. Where you put your energy in will depend on whether or not what dominates your chart?

If you have moon conjunct pluto and deep inside you crave intimacy, chances are you're not going to out winning some nobel prize, chances are you'll be more likely to be involved with dramatic relationship.

Hi again,
Your long explanatory post indicates your personal view (yet learned though other people's ideas?) to which you are more than entitled.

Please don't kill the messenger . I was forwarding traditional theories that have been part of astrological lore for centuries and have proved their relevance in interpretation. It is your decision whether to accept their validity.

Half the people I know don't feel or feel like they personify their sun/moon signs when those are and should be the most focal point of their personality.

Click to expand...

.

Last century, U.S evolutionary astrologer Geoffrey Wolf Green put forward that 70% of the world population live through their Moon feelings, and only 30% through conscious self awareness, as compared to the planet's water and earth Surfaces: Moon signifying the dependent, unindividuated herd state (follow the leader), Sun the independently motivated individual.
I believe there to be a lot of truth in the statement.

I noticed that you used terms that are part of Vedic astrology, of which I know nothing. The approach to astro. symbolism may be entirely different.
Is there not 'a submissive state' (Neptune?) to Vedic lore?
However, you wrote:
'If one party has fixed energy or has aspects, signs and houses that indicate that that party is like that. That means this element is going to stand out in that person's personality and that person will have different sides to them',
which did seem to agree with the general assessment applied through element.
E.g. Earth can apply boundaries to Water's feelings, that can act as a dam, protection, or defence mechanism against the influence of Fire or Air element upon it in character. Yet it can also apply the physical manifestation and consolidation of one's feelings, inspired by Fire and Air.
Similarly, Water can also soften and make pliable the Earth made hard and dry through a Fire and Water influence.
No individual is made up of one element (temperament) only. Everything is linked and should work in unison for, and not against the individual.

That said by a strong Earth-Air, less Fire, limited Water element individual who seeks proof of the theories in the facts conveyed …. or vice versa, yet with a very creatively strong imagination .

Frisiangal said:

Hi again,
Your long explanatory post indicates your personal view (yet learned though other people's ideas?) to which you are more than entitled.

Please don't kill the messenger . I was forwarding traditional theories that have been part of astrological lore for centuries and have proved their relevance in interpretation. It is your decision whether to accept their validity.

.

Last century, U.S evolutionary astrologer Geoffrey Wolf Green put forward that 70% of the world population live through their Moon feelings, and only 30% through conscious self awareness, as compared to the planet's water and earth Surfaces: Moon signifying the dependent, unindividuated herd state (follow the leader), Sun the independently motivated individual.
I believe there to be a lot of truth in the statement.

I noticed that you used terms that are part of Vedic astrology, of which I know nothing. The approach to astro. symbolism may be entirely different.
Is there not 'a submissive state' (Neptune?) to Vedic lore?
However, you wrote:
'If one party has fixed energy or has aspects, signs and houses that indicate that that party is like that. That means this element is going to stand out in that person's personality and that person will have different sides to them',
which did seem to agree with the general assessment applied through element.
E.g. Earth can apply boundaries to Water's feelings, that can act as a dam, protection, or defence mechanism against the influence of Fire or Air element upon it in character. Yet it can also apply the physical manifestation and consolidation of one's feelings, inspired by Fire and Air.
Similarly, Water can also soften and make pliable the Earth made hard and dry through a Fire and Water influence.
No individual is made up of one element (temperament) only. Everything is linked and should work in unison for, and not against the individual.

That said by a strong Earth-Air, less Fire, limited Water element individual who seeks proof of the theories in the facts conveyed …. or vice versa, yet with a very creatively strong imagination .

Click to expand...

I agree with this post. Nice explanation. Your statement about the moon is something I've seen. Now the reason why I mentioned sun a lot is generally it is agreed upon that sun rules the personality but from my own observations as well moon has a lot of affect/perhaps even more affect on personality. My moon in 8th house trine neptune and opposite pluto in taurus has a similar tinge to my sun as they are both a combination of earth, water, idealistic, occultist and hardworking tendencies so it's hard to differentiate between the two. And my earth does contain my feelings a little bit.

I have recently realized that sun represents your drive though when absolutely nobody is triggering you or causing havoc/drama in your life but that's usually not the case. Although I can't differentiate the temperament styles of my moon and sun, I do feel like my moon looks for drama a lot more and it's agenda is such as well(8th house and pluto) than my sun which just wants to be kind, peaceful and achieve it's goals while still being private.

The amount of stamina I have put forward in the last few days can only belong to capricorn lol.

But I suppose I disagree with the notion of your sun and moon signs being the front runner which drives your personality and I feel like statistically that will yield(this is just an opinion) around 55 percent agreement rate when it comes to temperament.

I feel like now if other things such as house, aspects as well as signs were to be taken into account, you'll get an agreement rate of about 80-85 percent when it comes to temperament and personality. The rest will be determined nakshatras, and perhaps fixed stars.

Even I don't think I completely have the answers when it comes to studying temperament. For example, traditional astrology takes into account things like season you were born in. Capricorns and sag would have a more phlagmetic temparement in this case, they also take into account asc lord, and moon phase.

I think they did this other study that indicated that january babies are more likely to have scizophrenia. I don't know what temperament is scizophrenia(seems like a mix of meloncholic and phlagmetic if you ask me). Another explanation could be that the neptune in cap gives active dopaminergic system to the native and thus, here we are. Because I have something called maladaptive daydreaming which is also like schizophrenia is associated with dopamine.

Fixed stars like Algol gives the native a propensity toward surreal art, interest in genetics, alcoholism and perhaps in some cases sexual abuse.

Why? Because every time any advancements were made in the field of genetics, Algol was prominent. Actresses that had algol strong in their chart, were either depressive alcoholics, sex abuse(extreme) victims, artists(but a specific type) and I believe some cult leaders have this strong in their chart or at least have something in the decan.

I don't want to make this post so big but I even love studying and knowing about genetics. Moon conjunt algol.

I think there needs to be a holistic view of astrology. And a framework in which we study it. For example, it only makes sense that the rarer aspect(something that is time sensitive and specific to you) will show up more in your chart more than a sign aspect which 1/12 people have in their chart.

I'm still trying to create a framework in my mind at least and marry everything I learnt to have more precise results in temperaments and personality. But sometimes I find this is even harder than predictions about one's career. Because it's like literally one aspect (which may be more time sensitive) can change everything about the native.

Sorry about my long post. I'm not trying to come off as rude. i just want a discussion so feel free to share your ideas.

If we refer to modern psychology, specifically Jung, we find that the first elements of temperament are the extrovert/introvert coupling. Each and every man Jack among us falls somewhere on the balance beam between these polarities. Usually, one or the other of these two becomes predominant and determines our characteristic world-view.

The two modes of seeing the world tend to be antagonistic, even mutually exclusive. Something so universal, powerful and socially significant should be found in the chart.

love-thinking said:

I feel like this part of astrology has been and will continue to be the hardest domain for me to assess.
I'll explain why. Lots of astrologer's when talking of temperaments, they specified some rules. For example:
Born in the winter despite your sign, there's a phlagmetic vibe to you,
spring-saungine
summer-choleric
fall-meloncholic
Then you have moon phases.
Then you have this general argument of whether or not or how sun, asc and moon signs and aspects work with eachother to create the persona.
For example it is generally agreed that the sun is your personality/what you put your energy in, moon is how you react, and asc is how you look like/come off to as other(the face you put up for the world to see). But many people simply say I relate more to my asc, sun, or moon.
But then there's the argument that aspects are superior to any sign.
But how do we assess temperament. How do we tell someone, this is how your personality is. If at most we'll get 80 percent right if we are lucky.
But here's another question.
Planets have temperaments.
So if we were to assess personality through sun, how would we do that?
How different is Sun conjunct pluto from sun conjunct mars conjunct neptune(if neptune is phlagmetic, and mars is choleric and pluto is said to have both attributes)? And what if they are in the same element, both born in winter time?
I also say this because there was a study indicating that mars and neptune creates psychologists and I will post the link for anyone that wants to see it. So for me this seems to me like the marrying of choleric and phlagmetic kind of like pluto.
How different are sun conjunct neptune from sun conjunct moon and jupiter?
I can't think of any other combinations that will make up a similar personality trait to another planet/sign. But insight on this topic will be nice.
What I'm trying to say is by the virtue of the composition of the temperaments involved itself(the mixture), is it possible to have a very similar manifestation of personality traits? And I'm not speaking of predictive astrology, simply in regards to the general temperament.

Click to expand...

Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum's recent publication

TEMPERAMENT ASTROLOGYS FORGOTTEN KEY

has been the recipient of very favourable reviews.
As well as presenting a good introduction to the history of the technique,
Dorian presents her own method for establishing the correct temperament type.
She has kindly allowed Skyscript to publish a selection of extracts
from her text which conclude with a review of the Choleric temperament
exemplified through the birth chart of George Bush.
Of course, these extracts can only offer a taster
of what is covered in the complete book
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temperament.html

What is Temperament? (pp.1-2)

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temperament.html

It might be easier to define temperament by what it is not.
In the first place, it is not the same as personality
although personality can incorporate parts of someone's temperament in its expression.
Personality is shaped by both internal and external factors, whereas
temperament is entirely innate.
Temperament is not character, though in some ways
the two concepts have a commonality.
Character can refer to the distinctive features

or qualities that distinguish one form from another
and so is innate like temperament
but it also refers, at least in modern English connotation
to the moral nature of a person.

The original Greek meaning of the word charakter is "stamp"
as in something used to make an impression in wax or metal.
So character is an impression on the person which, in that connotation,
implies something from without (parental or societal) rather than within.
Temperament, by contrast, is inherent.
We are born with our temperaments
and while there may be overlays of one temperamental style or another during our lives
what we get is what we keep.