Jupiter occultation

dr. farr said:

However, if we grant a later birth year for the Nativity (5,4,3 BC) then this hypotheis must be rejected. With more thought regarding this matter, I am leaning more toward a planet/star alignment, rather than a conjunction of 2 or more planets. Reading some of the older literature, I am starting to favor Jupiter as the likely planet, and either Regulus or Spica as the star...

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I’m inclined to believe that it was Jupiter that the Wise Men followed, but that it took a series of conjunctions to make the Wise Men realize what they were being told. It’s possible that the celestial events from before 6 BC were meant to get the Wise Men’s attention and tell them to be on the alert for future developments that came in 3-2 BC.

However, I’ve seen speculation in the course of my research that the Wise Men were pre-programmed to be on the lookout for the Messiah because the prophet Daniel recorded a schedule (Daniel 9:24-27).

But, no matter how many times I have read Daniel I cannot make heads or tails of it. Parts of this passage could be applied to Christ, but other parts could be applied to Antiochus Epiphanes(sp?), the emperor that the Maccabees revolted against. And then you have to decide whether or not the parts applied to Christ indicate His first coming, or His second.

If this is true, and we could pinpoint the time of Daniel, we would know when Christ was born and therefore know the year to look for the Star. But if the Wise Men knew when Christ was to be born, they could have simply gone to Judea ahead of time and waited, and this would have made the Star unnecessary.

Is there any kind of website or arithmetic calculation that can give previous dates for the heliacal rising of Jupiter?

I’ll have to re-read the books to be certain, but based on what a couple of websites say Michael Molnar (The Star of Bethlehem The Legacy of the Magi) placed a heliacal rising of Jupiter on April 17, 6 BC, and Ernest L. Martin (The Star That Astonished The World) placed another helicacal rising on August 12, 3 BC.

I took Jupiter’s synodic period of 398.9 days and counted forward from Molnar’s date, but it doesn’t create a cycle of heliacal risings that match Martin’s date.

So, unless I am wrong about Jupiter’s synodic period, or I miscalculated when I counted, one or the other of these dates must be wrong. But if my calculations are correct either of these dates would put a helicacal rising of Jupiter between June 17, 2 BC and December 25, 2 BC and this could explain why the Wise Men couldn’t follow the Star (Jupiter) directly to Bethlehem when they arrived in Judea. If neither Molnar, nor Martin are correct, then I need some way to find when Jupiter had heliacal risings during this time period.

jeaflor said:

I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).

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I can't find any other source at the moment from Babylonian. I did find Virgo as Virgin, Be'tula in Hebrew meaning Virgin, according to

Ibn-Ezra (Avraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra), The Begining of Wisdom translated by and annotated by Meira B. Epstein edited with additional annotation by Robert Hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Wisdom-Translation-From-Hebrew/dp/096622664X

I am reading this book at the moment. Although originally written in Hebrew, this book also listed Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Hindu descriptions for dignities, debilities, rulership, degrees and signs physical features, body parts, Lots, Houses, aspects. Excellent book!

poyi said:

I can't find any other source at the moment from Babylonian. I did find Virgo as Virgin, Be'tula in Hebrew meaning Virgin, according to

Ibn-Ezra (Avraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra), The Begining of Wisdom translated by and annotated by Meira B. Epstein edited with additional annotation by Robert Hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Wisdom-Translation-From-Hebrew/dp/096622664X

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I hadn’t seen this Hebrew connection before. However, in Isaiah 7:14 the King James translates the Hebrew word almah as virgin. The same goes for the Greek Septuagint translation (almah = parthenos which means virgin). Non-King James English translations often translate Isaiah 7:14 as young girl trying to discount Christ’s Divinity by denying His virgin birth. But, anyone who knows what ancient Jewish society was like would know that a young girl would be a teenager who is still living with her parents because she is not yet married, and any un-married Jewish girl who wasn’t also a virgin would have disgraced her family.

But at any rate, with the information you give here,
it would be entirely possible for Babylonian Wise
Men to make the connection between Virgo and
virginity by using this Hebraic conduit.

But, then with everything else that I’ve learned
here, I now need to look for a Zoroastrian
association between Virgo and virginity because I am
now thinking more that the Wise Men weren't culturally
Babylonian.

poyi said:

I am reading this book at the moment. Although originally written in Hebrew, this book also listed Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Hindu descriptions for dignities, debilities, rulership, degrees and signs physical features, body parts, Lots, Houses, aspects. Excellent book!

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I took German classes for grades 8-12. I’m beginning to forget most of it since it was so long ago, and I now wish I had spent the time studying Latin, Greek or Hebrew. They would have been more useful in the long run.

In the footnote of this book, p.46

regarding Virgo:"Erastosthenes and Avienus identified her with Isis, the thousand-named goddess...clasping in her arms the young Horus, the infant southern sun-god, the last of the divine kings. This is very ancient figuring appeared in the Middle Ages as the Virgin Mary with the child Jesus...Albertus Magnus of our 13th century, asserted that the Saviour's horoscope lay here. It has been said that her initials, MV, are the symbol for the Sign

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p.47 Footnote

says that the ancient Arabs' Lion was a much larger constellation that extended from Gemini through Libra and parts of the constellation north and south of the zodiac. This may explain this mention of the Lion in the description of Virgo.

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Historically, the constellation Virgo was associated with a virgin, or a goddess-like woman, or in fact a goddess (such as Isis or Ishtar) in ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (zorastrian), Greek, Roman, Indian and Tamil cultures: Spica is, of course, the prominent star of this constellation (and around the time of Jesus Nativity, the Virgo constellation largely occupied the tropical sign of Virgo) This is one of the reasons I have brought Spica into consideration (in alignment with Jupiter) as possibly being involved (my other most likely choice among the stars, being Regulus)

Martin claims that Revelation chapter 12 (a woman clothed with the sun with the moon at her feet gives birth only to have a great dragon try to kill her child) is describing the celestial events preceding Christ’s birth. I can’t readily make this connection because I don’t see any part of Revelation as a book of history (or at least what would have been history to the Apostle John). Chapter 12 is likely more symbolism in an already highly symbolic book that we likely will never understand until the prophecies all actually happen.

But, suppose the Wise Men didn’t associate Virgo with virginity. If they accepted this constellation as representing a woman, then the celestial events of 3 BC could still be interpreted as the start of a woman’s pregnancy- just not a virginal one.

And this raises theological issues. Matthew says that the Wise Men worshipped Jesus. The word used for worship is the same word used later when Satan asked Christ to worship him and the same word used when other people later worshipped Christ. So, were the Wise Men looking for God, or were they just looking for a King of the Jews?

If they accepted Christ as God, did they not serve as Christian missionaries when they returned home? Why then did wherever home was not already have a Christian community when the Apostles or later missionaries arrived? Without such a community I would have to suggest that the Wise Men were very few in number (maybe even the 3 of Christian tradition), and they likely were well advanced in age so they had neither the number, nor the time, to do any evangelizing.

Just rereading chapter 12 of Revelation I noticed in verse 1 it says the woman had a crown of 12 stars on her head. 12 would be symbolic of the tribes of Israel or the original Apostles. But, does the constellation Virgo have 12 stars at its head region that could be this crown?

dr. farr said:

Historically, the constellation Virgo was associated with a virgin, or a goddess-like woman, or in fact a goddess (such as Isis or Ishtar) in ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (zorastrian), Greek, Roman, Indian and Tamil cultures: Spica is, of course, the prominent star of this constellation (and around the time of Jesus Nativity, the Virgo constellation largely occupied the tropical sign of Virgo) This is one of the reasons I have brought Spica into consideration (in alignment with Jupiter) as possibly being involved (my other most likely choice among the stars, being Regulus)

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poyi's interesting research quotes the following information on this

poyi said:

There are Virgin Mary and the Fixed Star Spica, the great gift of mankind.
A particular article about The Star of Bethlehem, Virgo Virgin Mary and the Star Spica: http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

Virgo, The Seed of the Woman. Jesus was born as the flesh of Woman alone with the Spirit from God. A 14 pages article of the Constellation of Virgo and Christianity, of course including Spica: http://biblenumbers.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/virgo-seed-of-the-woman1.pdf

Mythology of Virgo
http://www.atam.org/Virgo.html

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poyi said:

Quote:
Virgo is depicted as carrying sheaves of wheat in her left hand pointing toward the ground. The brightest star in Virgo is located in the sheaves of wheat, it's name is Spica. Spica means, the SEED. Jesus, born of a virgin, referred to this constellation. He said, "Except a grain (seed) of wheat falls into the ground and die it abide alone; but if it die, it brings forth much fruit." John 12:24 Jesus spoke this of himself, knowing that he was the Seed (Spica) of God that had to be sown into the earth (crucifixion-death-burial) in order to limitless multiply Himself through resurrection life.

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poyi said:

I don't think Leo is specifically talking about the Jew as Egyptian used Sirius and Orion for building their pyramids. Pisces is thought to be relevant to Jew maybe because Jesus fed them with fishes and bread Virgo/Pisces. And more relevant stories about Virgo and Pisces in the bible as well.

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It seems that other people who have done Star of Bethlehem research cannot agree on the minute details. They all generally accept the same dates for things like conjunctions, although some include conjunctions that others ignore. But, they cannot seem to agree on the conclusion of the story.

Some have claimed that Jupiter came to a stop over Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BC. But others insist this didn’t happen until December 28, 2 BC. And then they disagree on how long Jupiter appeared to be stationary over Bethlehem once it got there.

I know that there are multiple planetarium software packages available, but just how accurate are they? Is one any better than another? And I know that the earth’s orbit isn’t steady because the earth wobbles on its axis, and things like earthquakes can change the time duration of the earth’s orbit around the sun. But can these things throw off the celestial time table by days?

And just what would the Wise Men have seen when they left Jerusalem after talking to Herod since Jerusalem is only 6 miles or so away? Could Jupiter have stopped over Bethlehem when seen from Jerusalem even though Jupiter was still moving?

That's why I lean toward the concept of Jupiter AND a star (Spica? Regulus?) together, in some type of alignment, and it might be the apparent actions of each COMPONENT of this meaningful alignment, that are variously mentioned in the accounts. Remember too that (as far as I know) no one has considered the parallels (whether of declination or celestial latitude) in this-only the potential conjunctions in longitude have been considered.

IF the Magi were zorastrian adepts, they would perhaps have been searching for the earthly incarnation of Jupiter/Mithras, one legend (extant around that ancient period of time) being that at some point in history such an Incarnation upon Earth would occur and usher in a new Age...