Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Pianoasis

Member
pluto, lacks sufficient mass to produce electromagnetic radiation
or is sufficiently distant as to not interfere with electromagnetic radiation on Earth
and
unable to reflect electromagnetic radiation from the Sun
and from the other Planets to Earth
so as to produce a noticeable affect proven by Science
.


How could science deem anything noticeable or not? That is a completely subjective opinion. Any planet that can be seen from Earth with a telescope is obviously sending electromagnetic waves towards us. If it has an effect, no matter how minor, it has an effect. Just because its effects are very small does not constitute completely dismissing it.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
The argument presupposes that electromagnetic radiation is the cause of astrology's powers. You aren't going to get a whole lot of people agreeing with that to start with, so any sort of argument that comes based off of that is going to be rejected out of hand.

This is also the issue, in general, with such scientific sounding hypotheses about the mechanical workings of astrology. They can and likely have all been disproven.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Thank you, Tikana

You wrote

well the best way i can think of is if someone with rock solid birthtime posts his/her natal and transits chart that shows Pluto being the culprit and have someone from traditional astrology person run the same event and look at from traditional aspect

theoretically, that is the only way you can prove or disprove pluto's influence

personally for me t pluto did a very crazy run starting at 3 scorpio and through 20 scorpio


So it means that to clarify the issue is doing a long run of tests, probably lasting for a longer time than we can afford, and that means that the knowledge can be given only by empirical research. Why is it like that with astrology? Why this knowledge is not accessible by deductive reasoning?

i do not fully understand prediction techniques using trad astrology but i can almost guarantee you that if you look at the same event from trad and modern you should come up with the same play

T
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The argument presupposes that electromagnetic radiation is the cause of astrology's powers. You aren't going to get a whole lot of people agreeing with that to start with, so any sort of argument that comes based off of that is going to be rejected out of hand.

This is also the issue, in general, with such scientific sounding hypotheses about the mechanical workings of astrology. They can and likely have all been disproven.
Theories remain theories even if not proven.
'Not proven' does not equate to 'disproven'
:smile:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...tlantic short-wave signal variations.&f=false
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
I believe Pluto has a lot of astrological powers and is useful in astrology, with the inclusion of Eris, Ceres, Vesta, Juno, Lilith and Pallas dubbed as "dwarf planets". Our star the Sun and Earth's natural satellite the Moon are highly useful in astrology, since our astrological or natal sign identity is from the Sun. The north, south and true nodes perform a role in astrology, which happen to not be planets or celestial bodies. Pluto is in fact a bi-nary system with Chiron as its largest satellite, but I don't recommend the adaptation of Chiron unless you're into the reformist astrological version of a "new" 13th sign Ophiuchus (or 14th with Orion) where the ecliptic does cross. And Pluto as an astrological "planet" rules Aries and Scorpio along side with Mars, and these planets much like the signs symbolize war, death, masculinity (or in Scorpio's case sexuality), misery and aggression. To leave out Pluto and suggest it's all Mars, then we reconsider the idea of any possible effect of "dwarf planets".
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I believe Pluto has a lot of astrological powers and is useful in astrology, with the inclusion of Eris, Ceres, Vesta, Juno, Lilith and Pallas dubbed as "dwarf planets". Our star the Sun and Earth's natural satellite the Moon are highly useful in astrology, since our astrological or natal sign identity is from the Sun. The north, south and true nodes perform a role in astrology, which happen to not be planets or celestial bodies. Pluto is in fact a bi-nary system with Chiron as its largest satellite, but I don't recommend the adaptation of Chiron unless you're into the reformist astrological version of a "new" 13th sign Ophiuchus (or 14th with Orion) where the ecliptic does cross. And Pluto as an astrological "planet" rules Aries and Scorpio along side with Mars, and these planets much like the signs symbolize war, death, masculinity (or in Scorpio's case sexuality), misery and aggression. To leave out Pluto and suggest it's all Mars, then we reconsider the idea of any possible effect of "dwarf planets".
As Dirius explains :smile:
The problem to us is that, in the general view of astrology, many of the things represented by the modern Pluto, are incompatible with most of the traditional teachings.

1) First of all, is what we consider the "aberrations", such as pluto ruling Scorpio (instead of Mars), or ruling sex, death, and the many more things that have been claimed to it. Like we've said in some posts, most of the attributes linked to pluto are borrowed (rather stolen) from other planets; mainly from Mars and Saturn. When we look at the many things pluto represents to modernists, we see it as a weird mix of the other planets.

2) Second, is the way this aberrations are presented to us. No reasoning or explanation behind them. It is "just because". No one explains why pluto does any of these things. No one gives evidence but saying stuff like:"pluto transiting your 2nd house, that is why you have money problems".

3) Third, is the interchangable nature and the many more significations that pluto recieves. Some go from treating pluto as an extreme malefic (associated with violence) or as a good benefic (positive and idealistic changes). It is as if authors on the subject apply anything that crosses their minds into pluto. Seems rather odd that the planet can be both good or bad, and mostly at the authors will. If someone needs to explain something good they use pluto, something bad, they use pluto too. It seems to me that pluto is rather used as a tool to explain things that don't seem to fit into modern astrology.

4) Fourth, as we said many times: the 7 classical planets explain everything. Pluto really adds nothing new. So why use something that can't give us more info?

5) Fifth and final, pluto doesn't reflect light, can't be seen with the naked eye. It is a small asteroid, with many more asteroids like him orbiting the sun. If you are going to use pluto, why not use Europa (jupiter's moon)?
We covered this in the first 3 pages so I won't go much into detail with it.

But pretty much, to us, pluto seems like a perfect solution for ignoring all the other stuff that needs to be accounted for. It seems like an easy solution for modern astrology to explain things that are complicated to explain.
 

Oddity

Well-known member
I'm curious, can you tell what planets, points, fixed stars, aspects etc. you propose as a substitute for the influence of outer planets, especially Pluto?

Lee Lehman went through Al Biruni's rulerships and noted the ones that Rex Bills changed to outer planets in his Rulership book. It's not a lot to go on, but it's a start:

http://leephd.blogspot.ca/2013/12/how-have-rulerships-shifted-since.html

Sue Ward also wrote a paper on the outer planets that is available from her web site for a small fee, and is quite edifying if you're really looking into this: http://www.sue-ward.co.uk/

ETA: That being said, people who are pretty firmly entrenched in the philosophy of modern astrology, and the concept that myths should guide astrological delineation are never, ever going to give up Pluto. Which is okay. Experience, and recognising what you see is what makes you a good astrologer, regardless of what camp you start in, and clients need good astrologers, whether they use the outer planets or no.

I dislike using the outers because I haven't found anything they delineate that the classical planets don't. I've also run charts for various major events and life-threatening experiences usually attributed to outer planets, and not found much, if any, correlation. And they obsfucate things. I'm near to tearing my hair out when an astrologer first looks at a chart, doesn't even mention the Sun-Saturn opposition across the ASC/DSC line as a possible source of the native's problem, but immediately leaps to the biquintile between Pluto and Venus or the septile between Neptune and Mars.

Different strokes and all that, but I will defend traditional rulerships to the death, whether you use the outer planets or not. The trad rulerships work much, much better. They just do.
 
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Oddity

Well-known member
The argument presupposes that electromagnetic radiation is the cause of astrology's powers. You aren't going to get a whole lot of people agreeing with that to start with, so any sort of argument that comes based off of that is going to be rejected out of hand.

This is also the issue, in general, with such scientific sounding hypotheses about the mechanical workings of astrology. They can and likely have all been disproven.

Slightly OT of the thread (perhaps?), but intriguing and not near enough work has been done on it:

http://www.sciencegroup.org.uk/kolisko/index.htm

I'm inclined to believe that if we were to find a 'physical' influence from the planets here on earth, it would more align with alchemy than current-day science.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

StillOne

Well-known member
clearly the poll does not provide sufficient options :smile:

No problem, create one that does! I chose the answers to be simple to avoid any confusion and to attempt to answer a couple of questions in one swoop. I.e. Obviously, if Pluto rules Scorpio, then it is an astrological planet. Going back to waybread's concern, I think it's understood that Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio. I don't think that's what's being argued. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think the question is, what current planet rules Scorpio? If you feel the poll is insufficient, you can PM me with a solution or state your concern in the thread.

Maybe you can guess my Sun Sign from all of this mediating? :sideways:
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
No problem, create one that does!
I chose the answers to be simple to avoid any confusion and to attempt to answer a couple of questions in one swoop.
I.e. Obviously, if Pluto rules Scorpio, then it is an astrological planet.
Going back to waybread's concern, I think it's understood that Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio.
I don't think that's what's being argued.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I think the question is, what current planet rules Scorpio?

If you feel the poll is insufficient, you can PM me with a solution or state your concern in the thread.

Maybe you can guess my Sun Sign from all of this mediating? :sideways:
Your sun sign is most probably one of the twelve on a natal chart :smile:
Generalisation is fun but unreliable

i.e.
'mediating' personalities do not necessarily all have the same sun sign

I'm simply highlighting the member who clearly finds the poll wanting

i.e.
they could not post as there is no option for them to do so

the poll is your idea
better then that you modify it - or not if you prefer not to

dwarf planet pluto was assigned rulership of scopio by chance
and not by 'massive research by modern astrologers'

i.e.
prior to the publication of a best-selling astrology book
pluto ruled Aries
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Your sun sign is most probably one of the twelve on a natal chart :smile:
Generalisation is fun but unreliable

i.e.
'mediating' personalities do not necessarily all have the same sun sign



Yeah, I'm just messing and trying to put a little light heartedness back into the thread. Anyway, carry on! :innocent:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Poll requires a third option added

A third option is needed on this poll http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...9&postcount=21

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne

However, if people wish me to adjust this poll I will.
Let me know how you should like it to read.
:cool:


the third option is that BOTH Mars AND pluto are co-rulers

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne
Initially I had more choices but figured I'd make it a simple yes or no. I realize that it may be oversimplified

and I'm not discrediting Mars as co-ruler.

I have tried to adjust the poll answers but can't without moderation.


We can possibly make the assumption that a Yes answer be also for those that include Mars as co-ruler

since a No answer would eliminate Pluto altogether. :wink:


??????
THE POLL AS CURRENTLY DESIGNED CLEARLY MEANS THAT A YES VOTE TOTALLY EXCLUDES MARS

SO

assuming that all voters would assume that a yes vote somehow magically includes a vote for both mars and pluto

IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE




 

StillOne

Well-known member
Re: Poll requires a third option added

A third option is needed on this poll http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...9&postcount=21

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne

However, if people wish me to adjust this poll I will.
Let me know how you should like it to read.
:cool:


the third option is that BOTH Mars AND pluto are co-rulers

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne
Initially I had more choices but figured I'd make it a simple yes or no. I realize that it may be oversimplified

and I'm not discrediting Mars as co-ruler.

I have tried to adjust the poll answers but can't without moderation.


We can possibly make the assumption that a Yes answer be also for those that include Mars as co-ruler

since a No answer would eliminate Pluto altogether. :wink:


??????
THE POLL AS CURRENTLY DESIGNED CLEARLY MEANS THAT A YES VOTE TOTALLY EXCLUDES MARS

SO

assuming that all voters would assume that a yes vote somehow magically includes a vote for both mars and pluto

IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE




Not any more.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82115
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
There must be some sort of transits happening on the forum's natal chart to have all this Pluto talk and Pluto arguing. People are even arguing in the vain "guess my physical appearance" threads because they concern Pluto, and the fights got pretty nasty. :andy:

I'm guessing for the next few weeks, no one can safely bring up the S word, Scorpio, without having an argument :biggrin:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
There must be some sort of transits happening on the forum's natal chart to have all this Pluto talk and Pluto arguing. People are even arguing in the vain "guess my physical appearance" threads because they concern Pluto, and the fights got pretty nasty. :andy:

I'm guessing for the next few weeks, no one can safely bring up the S word, Scorpio, without having an argument :biggrin:
It's not unusual to have differences of opinion on our forum :smile:


pluto-names.jpg
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Since we're suggesting Pluto's relationship with Mars, how about Lilith, the earth's second "moon"? It shares Pluto representative of negative virtues: death, abuse, violence and horror. :devil: Would Lilith be used to co-rule the 13th sign Ophiuchus in one new version of astrology? I have no idea, then we have to consider Charon (Pluto's moon) as a possible "dwarf planet" in its relative size to Pluto. Charon orbits around Pluto, not around the Sun, and I know little so far on what Charon represents in astrology.
 
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