JUPITERASC
Well-known member
on the contrary
Tradition takes note of "all the pieces"
Hi all! Can some answer my question about co rulers?
- Thread starter Cupid Arrow
- Start date
Tradition takes note of "all the pieces"
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
as it's all experimental unreliable guesswork
Neptune may have
and does have
as many "domiciles" as Modernist astrologers choose for Neptune to allegedly have
because in fact
Neptune has no universally agreed domicile amongst Modernist astrologers
IN CONTRAST
for at least two thousand years
traditional astrology has agreed VISIBLE planetary domiciles
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
modernist astrology "science"
has FAILED to present their MODERNIST ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES TABLE
reconciling modern invisible planetary claimed "domiciles"
with the two thousand year old accepted visible planetary domiciles and exaltations
ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES TABLE - TRADITIONAL
What is it that is not adding up, where are the holes you speak about?
May I see your chart, and could you please state what you think is "off"?
I did also feel that way some time back, but I think I kinda found ways to understand better. Maybe it can help you as well.
What kind of science is this? The rulership scheme is based on sacred geometry, not science. It has more in common with music and art than with what we call science today.
The planets, including the outers, are part of a higher order and harmony of the spheres. Seen from a geometry point of view, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have indeed their place in astrology, the outers actually mirror the relationships of the inner planets in terms of certain ratios.
Also, you need rulerships for calculation of planetary strength and auspiciousness. We can't calculate that for the outers (yet). I'm not saying it is impossible but it would require an entirely new rulership scheme. Also, the traditional branches of astrology (western and eastern) are so rich in techniques that you wouldn't actually need the outers.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
EXCEPT
the purported "new rulership scheme" DOES NOT respect the rule that
TRADITIONALLY planets are clearly visible in night skies to normal vision, without artificial aids
such as telescopes, binoculars, billion dollar hubble telescopes et al
furthermore
you said:
the reality is
Modernist astrology IS UNABLE TO agree on rulerships of Modernist planets
So saying "this is the new rulership scheme" is misleading
because it is a scheme not accepted amongst Modernists themselves
nothing was "missing"
traditional logical astrological rationale involves seven VISIBLE planets
and obviously
simple logic
clearly excludes any number of "new" INVISIBLE planets
"the new objects" are invisible
so
clearly are irrelevant to traditional astrology of "SEVEN VISIBLE PLANETS"
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
with solely naked eye vision Uranus is rarely if ever visible
hence
not "discovered" until recently when telescopes made it noticeable
BECAUSE
so
The two invisible planets in vedic astrology are Rahu and Ketu
And there's no rulership assigned to Rahu and Ketu.
the Vedic "invisble planets" are actually the Nodes
Classical Astrology is acknowledged as
the study of the seven VISIBLE naked eye planets
traditional astrology is based on the study of the seven VISIBLE planets
because
those seven VISIBLE planets are clearly VISIBLE naked eye vision
[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]
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Cupid Arrow
Well-known member
I can inbox you my chart.
Cupid Arrow
Well-known member
I gave an example.. Actually I'm looking at all the planets. Mars as co ruler for Scorpio. My sun is in Virgo but Leo rules the ninth house but its in the tenth etc. I'm trying to see what planets fit and what doesn't. I spoken to an experienced astrologer on this forum that used co ruler of my third house and he was spot on with the relationship I have with my sibling.
Cupid Arrow
Well-known member
Rahu/Ketu are the dragon heads or true nodes. I still trying to find if true nodes are useful when reading the horoscope.
Cupid Arrow
Well-known member
Is this YOUR website? Why wouldn't * Mercury be exalted in Virgo? In Scorpio, I think that would be determent unless Scorpio knows how to control that energy. I have Mercury conjunct Pluto and trust me, its hard. Its as if I have a Scorpio Mercury.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Mercurys Detriment and Fall is traditional PISCES
You mean Mercury?
Yes, it's exalted in Scorpio, why should it have two places in the same sign?
If you exalt it in Scorpio you'll find all the other planets correct placements too.
Mercury and Pluto are supposed to cooperate very well,
one is the deeper drive(Pluto) and the other is the brain processes (Mercury),
they give great results with the Scorpio machiavellian nature. I'm not too surprised to learn it's hard to handle those,
a conj is always an ambiguous aspect, and it is more sensitive to all the other transits;
and no wonder that conjunction gives you a Scorpion nature then,
they're two "dig in and dig out" forces,
definitely straining to have if not supported by other good elements in the chart, nevertheless, very creative.
Yes that's my blog, I need to work on it, doing it slow
the fact is
modernist astrology constantly fails to present
ANY
MODERNIST ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES TABLE
reconciling modern invisible planetary claimed "domiciles"
with the two thousand year old accepted
visible planetary domiciles and exaltations
ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES TABLE - TRADITIONAL
Cupid Arrow
Well-known member
Who???? What are you talking to about?
Cupid Arrow
Well-known member
You mean Mercury? Yes, it's exalted in Scorpio, why should it have two places in the same sign? If you exalt it in Scorpio you'll find all the other planets correct placements too.
Mercury and Pluto are supposed to cooperate very well, one is the deeper drive(Pluto) and the other is the brain processes (Mercury), they give great results with the Scorpio machiavellian nature. I'm not too surprised to learn it's hard to handle those, a conj is always an ambiguous aspect, and it is more sensitive to all the other transits; and no wonder that conjunction gives you a Scorpion nature then, they're two "dig in and dig out" forces, definitely straining to have if not supported by other good elements in the chart, nevertheless, very creative.
Yes that's my blog, I need to work on it, doing it slow
Well its exalted in Virgo at 15°… I dont have a Mercury Virgo but I'm sure there is a reason for this.. or research as to why its exalted in Virgo.
Personally I am definitely on the side of traditional astrology. The system moonris3 stands for makes no sense to me and most probably to a lot of people as well. The essential dignities (the main ones specifically) is the theme that I’ve been interested in for a long time and have gathered quite a lot of knowledge about it. I’m not an expert on natal astrology and only learning, but I’m pretty sure that I could debate every newly assigned (by this theory) exaltation and explain for what reasons the new ones just do not work.
It looks like a completely wild idea to think that Mercury is in exaltation in Scorpio because Scorpio and Virgo glyphs look similar. I do think they look rather similar but do you have any evidence that they indeed were confused by the ancient astrologers? I doubt it, and your assumptions (it’s probably not yours but you still use it to validate your opinion) do not count for an argument since you clearly cannot prove them.
It’s also unbelievable to think that this system really works because it creates the holes that it cannot fill. I’m talking about the fact that this theory states that in order for it to work there have to exist 2 other planets, X and Y respectively for now, to make it complete. Where are these planets then? If they are not discovered how can you create a theory that actively incorporates them? What if they… just do not exist? You really want them to but they cannot appear at your will. If they do not exist, this theory seems to crumble. And even if they do, it doesn’t make any sense to discuss them as for now they are just a figment of your imagination and nothing else.
Then, what does “weaker” and “stronger” domiciles even mean? If we take Venus, for example, it rules both Taurus and Libra and neither of them is weaker or stronger than the other! Yes, they do function rather differently but it was well explained in traditional astrology as diurnal and nocturnal rulership. The diurnal rulership (Libra) is the active masculine energy, while the nocturnal rulership (Taurus) is the passive feminine energy.
Another point that seemed really weird in your explanation is how you say that the opposite of the Moon is… Uranus? How is this even possible? The opposite of the Moon is Saturn, which seems pretty logical considering that the Moon’s rulership Cancer is opposite to the Saturn’s rulership Capricorn on the zodiac circle. If we think this way, then again, the argument you “provided” in your explanation seems to be really flawed, once again making me question how reasonable (or unreasonable to be more correct) this system seems to be.
And finally I am the kind of person that just does not think that the outer planets can potentially have any rulership over a specific sign. I cannot argue with the fact that the outer planets do matter, their aspects to other planets and their positions in houses have an influence which is often really important but their position in sign isn’t that important at all, at least for a specific individual. These planets are generational meaning that they move really slowly and stay in the same sign for an entire generation so does this imply that on some level some generation is able to function better that the other? They sure have a certain effect on generations but this effect cannot be evaluated objectively for a specific person. Based on the logic that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto right now have shared rulership with other planets, you suppose that every sign has to be ruled by two planets. But what if the idea that these planets can have any sort of rulership in itself is questionable? The idea of rulerships is that generally they bring out the best of the sign. For example, Jupiter manages to stream Pisces’ dreaminess and compassion into developing high morals and becoming a friend to all people but what does Neptune in Pisces do exactly? Does it help to bring the best of Pisces to the world? Neptune may share some qualities with the sign of Pisces but in no way does it imply that Neptune is the most fitting position for it to be in. The same goes for Uranus and Pluto.
Now, about the exaltation of Mercury… It’s strange to think that Scorpio is a really good placement for Mercury to be in. Scorpio above all is extremely emotional and Mercury doesn’t feel comfortable in this plane. Mercury is an absolutely rational planet, not interested in the emotional nature of people at all, so with impulsive fire signs and emotional water signs it just cannot be as powerful as with signs of earth and air. (I’m talking only about Mercury’s position in signs, obviously, if a person has a brilliant Mercury placement but has a lot of hard aspects to it or has it positioned in a bad house, it can cause many inconveniences and troubles). Mercury in Scorpio is an investigator, someone who always wants to get below the surface and get to the truth, but its interest is mostly emotionally driven. Gemini, on the other hand, is driven mostly by curiosity, while Virgo overall feels most comfortable dealing with details. Scorpios will learn the truth and get emotional satisfaction from it, while Gemini’s and Virgo’s satisfaction will be purely mental. If Scorpios were given a large amount of details and numbers, they would just get frustrated. Scorpio’s nature is not mentally-based or mentally-oriented at all. Moreover, for what reason would you consider Taurus to be the sign of Mercury’s fall?
Then we should remember what exaltation means. While planets in domicile are free to do whatever they want, planets in exaltation have certain expectations from others and have to fit them. They are not as free as they would want to be but they still manage to do their work surprisingly well. To be honest, it makes sense why Virgo among all other signs would have the only domicile + exaltation combination. Virgo is the sign that generally tends to worry about everything and for that reason, in my opinion, Virgo cannot fully embrace Mercury’s rulership but instead of making things worse, it actually makes them better. Mercury can set its own goals when in Virgo but it has to prove its dignity by actually doing something and applying its knowledge to the physical world. While often Mercury in Gemini gathers up knowledge for no particular reason, Mercury in Virgo always has a reason, yet keeps its mind very flexible and adaptable (mutable sign). Mercury here makes its own rules for itself to bounce off of them and makes a great job at it. It never loses focus and manages details better than anyone else.
Look at the opposite sign, Pisces. Pisces abhors details and analysis, it functions a lot better using intuition and empathy. Discriminating words if often a big challenge for a person with his Mercury in Pisces as the level at which it’s thinking is not operating on the verbal basis, so obviously communicating is more often than not a big problem for such Mercury. And communication is the most important way that Mercury manifests in the real world, while planets in fall are the ones most frustrated with the practical implementation of their energy. People with Mercury in Taurus are definitely not the people who have the most trouble at speaking, while for people with Mercury in Pisces that is an extremely common problem. When a planet is in detriment, it tends to understand its role wrongly and on that basis make wrong decisions, while when it is in fall, it can understand what it’s supposed to do but fail when matters require real-world application. To understand something, however, you need to analyze it and Mercury is the main planet dealing with analysis. So Mercury in Pisces feels that something is wrong with the way it expresses itself and it tries to find what is wrong but when it tries to analyze it, its priorities do not let it. Mercury’s priorities in Pisces are set wrong: synthesis over analysis, which gets Mercury trapped in a vicious circle of misunderstanding both from itself and the outside world.
I don't know if I would read such a long post myself, but if you did, thanks. Any feedback is appeciated.
It looks like a completely wild idea to think that Mercury is in exaltation in Scorpio because Scorpio and Virgo glyphs look similar. I do think they look rather similar but do you have any evidence that they indeed were confused by the ancient astrologers? I doubt it, and your assumptions (it’s probably not yours but you still use it to validate your opinion) do not count for an argument since you clearly cannot prove them.
It’s also unbelievable to think that this system really works because it creates the holes that it cannot fill. I’m talking about the fact that this theory states that in order for it to work there have to exist 2 other planets, X and Y respectively for now, to make it complete. Where are these planets then? If they are not discovered how can you create a theory that actively incorporates them? What if they… just do not exist? You really want them to but they cannot appear at your will. If they do not exist, this theory seems to crumble. And even if they do, it doesn’t make any sense to discuss them as for now they are just a figment of your imagination and nothing else.
Then, what does “weaker” and “stronger” domiciles even mean? If we take Venus, for example, it rules both Taurus and Libra and neither of them is weaker or stronger than the other! Yes, they do function rather differently but it was well explained in traditional astrology as diurnal and nocturnal rulership. The diurnal rulership (Libra) is the active masculine energy, while the nocturnal rulership (Taurus) is the passive feminine energy.
Another point that seemed really weird in your explanation is how you say that the opposite of the Moon is… Uranus? How is this even possible? The opposite of the Moon is Saturn, which seems pretty logical considering that the Moon’s rulership Cancer is opposite to the Saturn’s rulership Capricorn on the zodiac circle. If we think this way, then again, the argument you “provided” in your explanation seems to be really flawed, once again making me question how reasonable (or unreasonable to be more correct) this system seems to be.
And finally I am the kind of person that just does not think that the outer planets can potentially have any rulership over a specific sign. I cannot argue with the fact that the outer planets do matter, their aspects to other planets and their positions in houses have an influence which is often really important but their position in sign isn’t that important at all, at least for a specific individual. These planets are generational meaning that they move really slowly and stay in the same sign for an entire generation so does this imply that on some level some generation is able to function better that the other? They sure have a certain effect on generations but this effect cannot be evaluated objectively for a specific person. Based on the logic that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto right now have shared rulership with other planets, you suppose that every sign has to be ruled by two planets. But what if the idea that these planets can have any sort of rulership in itself is questionable? The idea of rulerships is that generally they bring out the best of the sign. For example, Jupiter manages to stream Pisces’ dreaminess and compassion into developing high morals and becoming a friend to all people but what does Neptune in Pisces do exactly? Does it help to bring the best of Pisces to the world? Neptune may share some qualities with the sign of Pisces but in no way does it imply that Neptune is the most fitting position for it to be in. The same goes for Uranus and Pluto.
Now, about the exaltation of Mercury… It’s strange to think that Scorpio is a really good placement for Mercury to be in. Scorpio above all is extremely emotional and Mercury doesn’t feel comfortable in this plane. Mercury is an absolutely rational planet, not interested in the emotional nature of people at all, so with impulsive fire signs and emotional water signs it just cannot be as powerful as with signs of earth and air. (I’m talking only about Mercury’s position in signs, obviously, if a person has a brilliant Mercury placement but has a lot of hard aspects to it or has it positioned in a bad house, it can cause many inconveniences and troubles). Mercury in Scorpio is an investigator, someone who always wants to get below the surface and get to the truth, but its interest is mostly emotionally driven. Gemini, on the other hand, is driven mostly by curiosity, while Virgo overall feels most comfortable dealing with details. Scorpios will learn the truth and get emotional satisfaction from it, while Gemini’s and Virgo’s satisfaction will be purely mental. If Scorpios were given a large amount of details and numbers, they would just get frustrated. Scorpio’s nature is not mentally-based or mentally-oriented at all. Moreover, for what reason would you consider Taurus to be the sign of Mercury’s fall?
Then we should remember what exaltation means. While planets in domicile are free to do whatever they want, planets in exaltation have certain expectations from others and have to fit them. They are not as free as they would want to be but they still manage to do their work surprisingly well. To be honest, it makes sense why Virgo among all other signs would have the only domicile + exaltation combination. Virgo is the sign that generally tends to worry about everything and for that reason, in my opinion, Virgo cannot fully embrace Mercury’s rulership but instead of making things worse, it actually makes them better. Mercury can set its own goals when in Virgo but it has to prove its dignity by actually doing something and applying its knowledge to the physical world. While often Mercury in Gemini gathers up knowledge for no particular reason, Mercury in Virgo always has a reason, yet keeps its mind very flexible and adaptable (mutable sign). Mercury here makes its own rules for itself to bounce off of them and makes a great job at it. It never loses focus and manages details better than anyone else.
Look at the opposite sign, Pisces. Pisces abhors details and analysis, it functions a lot better using intuition and empathy. Discriminating words if often a big challenge for a person with his Mercury in Pisces as the level at which it’s thinking is not operating on the verbal basis, so obviously communicating is more often than not a big problem for such Mercury. And communication is the most important way that Mercury manifests in the real world, while planets in fall are the ones most frustrated with the practical implementation of their energy. People with Mercury in Taurus are definitely not the people who have the most trouble at speaking, while for people with Mercury in Pisces that is an extremely common problem. When a planet is in detriment, it tends to understand its role wrongly and on that basis make wrong decisions, while when it is in fall, it can understand what it’s supposed to do but fail when matters require real-world application. To understand something, however, you need to analyze it and Mercury is the main planet dealing with analysis. So Mercury in Pisces feels that something is wrong with the way it expresses itself and it tries to find what is wrong but when it tries to analyze it, its priorities do not let it. Mercury’s priorities in Pisces are set wrong: synthesis over analysis, which gets Mercury trapped in a vicious circle of misunderstanding both from itself and the outside world.
I don't know if I would read such a long post myself, but if you did, thanks.
Any feedback is appeciated.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Using that line of reasoning IS wild, I agree
and
unproveable as well
no proof offered in fact
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
well said
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
I found the long post well worth readingThen, what does “weaker” and “stronger” domiciles even mean? If we take Venus, for example, it rules both Taurus and Libra and neither of them is weaker or stronger than the other! Yes, they do function rather differently but it was well explained in traditional astrology as diurnal and nocturnal rulership. The diurnal rulership (Libra) is the active masculine energy, while the nocturnal rulership (Taurus) is the passive feminine energy.
Another point that seemed really weird in your explanation is how you say that the opposite of the Moon is… Uranus? How is this even possible? The opposite of the Moon is Saturn, which seems pretty logical considering that the Moon’s rulership Cancer is opposite to the Saturn’s rulership Capricorn on the zodiac circle. If we think this way, then again, the argument you “provided” in your explanation seems to be really flawed, once again making me question how reasonable (or unreasonable to be more correct) this system seems to be.
And finally I am the kind of person that just does not think that the outer planets can potentially have any rulership over a specific sign. I cannot argue with the fact that the outer planets do matter, their aspects to other planets and their positions in houses have an influence which is often really important but their position in sign isn’t that important at all, at least for a specific individual. These planets are generational meaning that they move really slowly and stay in the same sign for an entire generation so does this imply that on some level some generation is able to function better that the other? They sure have a certain effect on generations but this effect cannot be evaluated objectively for a specific person. Based on the logic that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto right now have shared rulership with other planets, you suppose that every sign has to be ruled by two planets. But what if the idea that these planets can have any sort of rulership in itself is questionable? The idea of rulerships is that generally they bring out the best of the sign. For example, Jupiter manages to stream Pisces’ dreaminess and compassion into developing high morals and becoming a friend to all people but what does Neptune in Pisces do exactly? Does it help to bring the best of Pisces to the world? Neptune may share some qualities with the sign of Pisces but in no way does it imply that Neptune is the most fitting position for it to be in. The same goes for Uranus and Pluto.
Now, about the exaltation of Mercury… It’s strange to think that Scorpio is a really good placement for Mercury to be in. Scorpio above all is extremely emotional and Mercury doesn’t feel comfortable in this plane. Mercury is an absolutely rational planet, not interested in the emotional nature of people at all, so with impulsive fire signs and emotional water signs it just cannot be as powerful as with signs of earth and air. (I’m talking only about Mercury’s position in signs, obviously, if a person has a brilliant Mercury placement but has a lot of hard aspects to it or has it positioned in a bad house, it can cause many inconveniences and troubles). Mercury in Scorpio is an investigator, someone who always wants to get below the surface and get to the truth, but its interest is mostly emotionally driven. Gemini, on the other hand, is driven mostly by curiosity, while Virgo overall feels most comfortable dealing with details. Scorpios will learn the truth and get emotional satisfaction from it, while Gemini’s and Virgo’s satisfaction will be purely mental. If Scorpios were given a large amount of details and numbers, they would just get frustrated. Scorpio’s nature is not mentally-based or mentally-oriented at all. Moreover, for what reason would you consider Taurus to be the sign of Mercury’s fall?
Then we should remember what exaltation means. While planets in domicile are free to do whatever they want, planets in exaltation have certain expectations from others and have to fit them. They are not as free as they would want to be but they still manage to do their work surprisingly well. To be honest, it makes sense why Virgo among all other signs would have the only domicile + exaltation combination. Virgo is the sign that generally tends to worry about everything and for that reason, in my opinion, Virgo cannot fully embrace Mercury’s rulership but instead of making things worse, it actually makes them better. Mercury can set its own goals when in Virgo but it has to prove its dignity by actually doing something and applying its knowledge to the physical world. While often Mercury in Gemini gathers up knowledge for no particular reason, Mercury in Virgo always has a reason, yet keeps its mind very flexible and adaptable (mutable sign). Mercury here makes its own rules for itself to bounce off of them and makes a great job at it. It never loses focus and manages details better than anyone else.
Look at the opposite sign, Pisces. Pisces abhors details and analysis, it functions a lot better using intuition and empathy. Discriminating words if often a big challenge for a person with his Mercury in Pisces as the level at which it’s thinking is not operating on the verbal basis, so obviously communicating is more often than not a big problem for such Mercury. And communication is the most important way that Mercury manifests in the real world, while planets in fall are the ones most frustrated with the practical implementation of their energy. People with Mercury in Taurus are definitely not the people who have the most trouble at speaking, while for people with Mercury in Pisces that is an extremely common problem. When a planet is in detriment, it tends to understand its role wrongly and on that basis make wrong decisions, while when it is in fall, it can understand what it’s supposed to do but fail when matters require real-world application. To understand something, however, you need to analyze it and Mercury is the main planet dealing with analysis. So Mercury in Pisces feels that something is wrong with the way it expresses itself and it tries to find what is wrong but when it tries to analyze it, its priorities do not let it. Mercury’s priorities in Pisces are set wrong: synthesis over analysis, which gets Mercury trapped in a vicious circle of misunderstanding both from itself and the outside world.
I don't know if I would read such a long post myself, but if you did, thanks.
and many thanks for posting it!!
conspiracy theorist
Well-known member
@Triple
It was long, but coherent, focused and astrologically sound. Great post
It was long, but coherent, focused and astrologically sound. Great post