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Dignities & debilities Board for discussing planets in dignities and debilities in natal charts.


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  #1  
Unread 07-02-2006, 08:38 PM
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An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

This series of articles has been inspired by the success and popularity of the thread Any other Capricorn Moons out there?, particularly Lunar Pisces' most recent post about the moon's debility. With Manuu's suggestions for forum improvement still fresh in my mind, I sent Radu a personal message requesting his permission to "create a series of threads discussing the influence of various planets in dignity and debility."

Before we begin our discussions on this new subthread, I recommend that anyone unfamiliar with planetary dignity and debility read this article courtesy of Skyscript.

Radu has also requested that I upload an image of Ptolemy's table of Essential Dignities, which I have briefly summarized below:



Rulership:
  • Mars in Aries
  • Venus in Taurus
  • Mercury in Gemini
  • Moon in Cancer
  • Sun in Leo
  • Mercury in Virgo
  • Venus in Libra
  • Mars in Scorpio
  • Jupiter in Sagittarius
  • Saturn in Capricorn
  • Saturn in Aquarius
  • Jupiter in Pisces

Exaltation:
  • Sun in Aries
  • Moon in Taurus
  • North Node in Gemini
  • Jupiter in Cancer
  • Mercury in Virgo
  • Saturn in Libra
  • South Node in Sagittarius
  • Mars in Capricorn
  • Venus in Pisces

Detriment:
  • Venus in Aries
  • Mars in Taurus
  • Jupiter in Gemini
  • Saturn in Cancer
  • Saturn in Leo
  • Jupiter in Virgo
  • Mars in Libra
  • Venus in Scorpio
  • Mercury in Sagittarius
  • Moon in Capricorn
  • Sun in Aquarius
  • Mercury in Pisces

Fall:
  • Saturn in Aries
  • Mars in Cancer
  • Venus in Virgo
  • Sun in Libra
  • Moon in Scorpio
  • Jupiter in Capricorn
  • Mercury in Pisces

Arian Maverick

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  #2  
Unread 07-03-2006, 02:08 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

I am very interested in this discussion, as both my sun and moon are in detriment. That's a bit depressing! Actually, reading that article you linked to about Dignities & debilities, my chart overall is in pretty bad shape.

Great thread idea, I can't wait to see what people have to say about this topic!
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  #3  
Unread 07-03-2006, 01:42 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Hey Holly, don't feel depressed! there is nothing to feel sorry for. It's just you!
Look, I think planets in detriment may not have the resources to perform splendidly by themselves, in an obvious manner, but they surely know how to make use of available resources, enabling the chart owner to do pretty well in life, even without all that luck or talent.

I'm sure David didn't have Mars in Capricorn as his opponent Goliath might have had, instead he used the available martian energy wisely
and managed to win the fight.

Cheer up!
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  #4  
Unread 07-03-2006, 10:17 PM
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Re: Mercury

I thought that Mercury was in its Detriment in Pisces and in its Fall in Leo. Maybe I have the wrong information. I would be happy if Mercury was not in its Fall in Leo.

Devalight
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  #5  
Unread 07-03-2006, 10:41 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Perhaps I need to double-check my sources...

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  #6  
Unread 07-04-2006, 07:34 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

The rule(s) for fall & detriment are:
sign opposite rulership is detriment
sign opposite exaltation is fall.
simple.
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  #7  
Unread 07-04-2006, 07:41 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

notice also that there are no exaltations in leo, aquarius, gemini, sagittarius & scorpio; therefore no fall's (with exception of moon in scorpio being opposite taurus moon exaltation).
(also, some say n.node exalted in gemini & s.node in sag).
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Unread 02-28-2007, 04:59 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Rulership:
  • Mars in Aries:-If Saturn in fourth,damage rulership.
  • Venus in Taurus:-If Saturn or Rahu have conection rulership damage.
  • Mercury in Gemini:-Always like sliped talk if Sun with Mercury.
  • Moon in Cancer:-If Rahu have conection,there are only smoke in life.
  • Sun in Leo:-If with Venus not "Grrrrrrrrrr" but "Miaaaaaaaaaaaaau"
  • Mercury in Virgo:-If with Mars full day work and results Zero.
  • Venus in Libra:-If Mars in 4th only damaging of beauty.
  • Mars in Scorpio:-Killed to friends,and youngers.
  • Jupiter in Sagittarius:-Where is family and where is family.
  • Saturn in Capricorn:-Not require any Suggestions.
  • Saturn in Aquarius:-Always busy in making property.
  • Jupiter in Pisces:-Everything is good,not require more.
Exaltation:
  • Sun in Aries:-Only one son damage all prestige from socity.
  • Moon in Taurus:-Child of two mothers.
  • North Node in Gemini:-TV media and computer works.
  • Jupiter in Cancer:-Busy in prepairing cloths.
  • Mercury in Virgo:-Sweet talk.
  • Saturn in Libra:-Partnership but too late.
  • South Node in Sagittarius:-Only one son,for maintain family works.
  • Mars in Capricorn:-Hard and order talk.
  • Venus in Pisces:-Fate person,totel works by life partner,luxerious life.
Detriment:
  • Venus in Aries:-Always under life partner.
  • Mars in Taurus:-Always elder in family.
  • Jupiter in Gemini:-Working by Knowledge.
  • Saturn in Cancer:-Always dout in mind.
  • Saturn in Leo:-slow education,ruling by female child.
  • Jupiter in Virgo:-Docter can not scane which illness.
  • Mars in Libra:-Two alive life partner.
  • Venus in Scorpio:-No values of life mate.
  • Mercury in Sagittarius:-No values of talk.
  • Moon in Capricorn:-Mother is ruling person in family.
  • Sun in Aquarius:-No Values of father in family.
  • Mercury in Pisces:-Always mind in circle.
Fall:
  • Saturn in Aries:-Damaging works by own mind,limited work.
  • Mars in Cancer:-Operation of past.
  • Venus in Virgo:-Weak life partner,more expenses in medical.
  • Sun in Libra:-Negative thinking,ruling by lifemate.
  • Moon in Scorpio:-Widow mother.
  • Jupiter in Capricorn:-Father is only one in family.
  • Mercury in Pisces:-Circle in Mind.
Arian Maverick[/quote]
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  #9  
Unread 03-01-2007, 06:56 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

hi, can anybody gives some explanations about the "Triplicity", i saw Lehman uses the "mixed triplicity", does anybody know why is that?
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Unread 03-08-2007, 11:46 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

A Triplicity are Planets that agree in the same Element. For example the Signs Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are considered "fiery" or part of the fire Element, their rulers are Jupiter, Sun and Mars make up the Fiery Triplicity. When there is a mixing in a chart of Jupiter, Sun or Mars together, there is a certain agreement between them because they are of the same Element.
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  #11  
Unread 03-08-2007, 07:05 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Dear
I tell you about the effects of the five elements: space, air, fire, water, and earth. Space, air, fire, water, and earth are ruled by Guru(Jupiter), Shani(Saturn), Mangal(Mars), Shukra(Venus), and Buddha(Mercury) respectively. The effects are experienced in proportion to the intensity of the various elements.The person will have a temperament according to the greater strength of the graha at the time of birth. Guru, Shani, Mangal, Shukra, and Buddha will respectively give special (ethereal), airy (windy), fiery, watery, and earthy temperament. If all of them or many of these grahas have equal strength, the temperament will be of a mixed character. If Surya(Sun) is endowed with strength, the person will have a fiery temperament. If Chandra(Moon) is strong, the person will have a watery temperament. All the grahas in the course of their Dasa(Time of Star), endow the person with bodily luster relating to their elements. The characteristic features of the person with fiery temperament are: distressed with hunger, restless, lean and thin bodied, learned, consumes a large quantity of food, is sharp, fair complexioned, and proud. The characteristic features of a person with earthy temperament are: emits fragrance of camphor and lotus, is fond of luxuries, comforts and enjoyments and is permanently happy, forgiving, and has a deep voice like a lion.The characteristic features of a person with an ethereal temperament are: acquainted with seismology, an expert in diplomacy, brilliant, learned, unmasked face, and long stature.The characteristic features of a person with a watery temperament are: lustrous, can sustain burdens, is soft spoken, kingly, has many friends, and is learned.The characteristic features of a person with airy temperament are: charitable, full of anger, fair complexioned, fond of wandering, victorious over enemies, king, and has a lean physique.When the fire element is predominant in a person, that is, the strength of Surya or Mangal is predominant, his face and body exhibit a gold like luster and he has pleasant eyes. He achieves success in all his ventures, is victorious over his enemies and gets gain of wealth. When the earth element is predominant, that is, if Buddha's strength is predominant, the body of the person emits various kinds of fragrances. His nails, hair and teeth are clean. He gets gain of happiness and wealth and is religious minded.
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  #12  
Unread 04-15-2007, 03:13 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Hello,
Can anyone tell me what a Peregene Planet is? When I look at a chart and I see the letter P with a value number with a negative beside it or nothing at all?
Thank you.
Jeff
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  #13  
Unread 04-15-2007, 03:49 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Peregrine is when a Planet doesnt have any essential dignities in its placement. This placement is equal in malevolency to that of a Planet in its Detriment. The negative value is a ranking of its debiliting in the chart (-5).
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Unread 04-15-2007, 06:17 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Quote:
both my sun and moon are in detriment. That's a bit depressing! Actually, reading that article you linked to about Dignities & debilities, my chart overall is in pretty bad shape.
Receptions! Receptions! Receptions!

Look at the dignities of the luminaries, and see if any of those planets are also in the dignities of the Sun and the Moon. If you find that either of the luminaries are in beneficial reception, mixed or mutual, with another planet, and if this planet has dignity, then this describes the influence that can pull the detrimented planet out of it's unfortunate position.

There are few charts in which a badly debilitated planet has no other strength to draw upon from elsewhere in the chart via the web of receptions.

Receptions are completely ignored in most astrology today, and astrology is so very much the poorer because of it, but it doesn't need to be.

In fact, a debilitated planet does not have to be in actual reception to derive benefit from another planet, it's just better if the planet to which the detrimented planet appeals takes some interest in it's plight.

For example, I have a peregrine Mercury in Libra, but fortunately, it isn't all so bad for Mercury, as Mercury exalts Saturn, and Saturn is also in Libra and is in Mercury's term, so Saturn takes a bit of interest in Mercury's situation, and so is inclined to respond to Mercury's appeal for help via the mixed reception. Saturn is able to help Mercury even more in that he is the Lord of the Geniture. So when my troublesome Mercury causes me to go askew in life, I know that I can draw upon my powerful Saturnian qualities, to kick Mercury's **** into gear. To derive benefit via receptions in this way however, usually requires will and concious application, if the two planets are in aspect however, the exchange is more automatic.

Astrobhadauria,

Quote:
Mars in Scorpio:-Killed to friends,and youngers.
What does this mean? I am a Mars in Scorpio native.

Quote:
Peregrine is when a Planet doesnt have any essential dignities in its placement.
True.

Quote:
This placement is equal in malevolency to that of a Planet in its Detriment.
I disagree. You have just said yourself that a peregrine planet is a planet that does not have any essential dignities in it's placement, but this is certainly not equal to a planet that is as essentially undignified as it can possibly be.

A planet in it's peregrine state, it has been said, given the opportunity, tends towards malice. This is a far cry from being in detriment, or being comparable to detriment.

Lilly equates peregrination with detriment in that he gives each a numerical value of -5, but then, what is the point in making a distinction between the two debilities? I would agree with Frawley, who gives peregrination a value of -3, which makes more sense, because then we have a sliding scale of essential debility, detriment -5, fall -4 and peregrine -3.

Looking at it like this, peregrine is about as bad as triplicity is good.

Personally, I do wonder why, that if peregrination means 'no dignity', why it is not given a value of '0'.

Antikythera

The word 'peregrine', originates from the Latin 'pereger', meaning 'beyong the borders', and 'ager' meaning, 'land'. So a peregrine planet is literally a wanderer in an unfamiliar environment, outside of it's natural territory, and cannot relate to the position it is in.

A peregrine planet having no dignities of it's own, is strongly influenced by those planets with which it is configured, by aspect or reception. The lack of dignity of the peregrine state can be alleviated somewhat by accidental dignity, or by aspect or reception, preferably both, with a more essentially fortified planet.
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Unread 06-25-2007, 08:18 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

deleted post.

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Unread 06-25-2007, 10:11 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

AT
Pergrine planets are those that make none of the Major aspects to other planets if I am not mistaken.

" is simply that an unaspected planet (no Ptolemaic aspect) can be called peregrine.
Do we still need this system of dignities and debilitations? We do have the outer planets now, and a deep psychological understanding of behavioral archetypes developed throughout this last century. I suggest strongly that we do not gain much analytical benefit for the Classical struggle involved with measuring essential dignities and indignities.
"From Noel Tyl Analitical Technics-see below

When a planet is in Perigrine it takes on a wild natue and takes on a life of it's own.Like running wild with no specific control to tame it. Not a bad thing for many as there are painters and such that need to have liberal ideas that can be projected outward.

There are those that have several planets peregrine also.

http://mani.lunarservers.com/~noelty...s/991130t.html
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Unread 06-25-2007, 10:33 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Hi There,
Intresting about the topics. How would you interpret the Peregrine Planets in this chart of Essencial Dignities. Is it a good thing that a Peregrine Planet is
-8 for example it that good? Is +5 better for example. I am a bit confused.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Unread 06-25-2007, 11:27 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Pergrine planets are those that make none of the Major aspects to other planets if I am not mistaken.
That's just unaspected, unless it doesn't make anymore aspects before leaving a Sign, then it becomes Void of Course

Quote:
Is it a good thing that a Peregrine Planet is
-8 for example it that good? Is +5 better for example. I am a bit confused.
Depending on what school of thought you followed, a peregrine planet wouldn't have any score, or it'd be -5, or it'd be -3. The more + the better.
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Unread 06-26-2007, 12:38 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Idiots like Tyl notwithstanding, a peregrine planet is a planet with no essential dignity, always was, always will be, end of story.

An unaspected planet is an unaspected planet, simple as.

Hi Jag.

Quote:
This really makes a lot of sense to me. i've been always told that the dignity/debility stuff was only for horary---they did not apply to a natal chart.
Not at all. If you explore nativities using the full scheme of dignities and debilities, and pay attention to receptions, not just aspects, you'll find this extremely enriching to your astrology.
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Unread 06-27-2007, 02:33 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

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Unread 07-08-2007, 03:28 AM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Ah, the ongoing struggle between Tyl and the non-Tyl's!!

You know, Noel Tyl may be something of a rogue, but so what?? So was Jesus. Just because someone shakes things up with new ideas is no reason to disparage the man.

What Tyl does is to drag astrology out of the murky mud its been in for centuries and help to clarify things for many, many people, such as myself. Its an aid to learning, certainly not the be all and end all. Surely there's no such thing in such a vast field as astrology! But it IS to the point, and very handy for getting to grips with astrology.

I certainly wouldn't recommend using ONLY his methods - they need to be supplemented with other, more grounded methods. But certanly they helped me and added a new energised dimension to my study, with fascinating new concepts like the quindecile and peregrine.

It amazes and disappoints me that even in astrology there can be those who feel the need to name call others. Sorry but that's just juvenile in my opinion.

Personally I think its a very good definition of peregrine!

Some of the discussion of this thread is very confusing, esp. using Vedic astrology as this noble tradition has so many rules and variations that someone trying to learn simply cannot get to grips with it!!

Surely we can all agree that while there may be only one mountain, there are in truth many approaches to the mountain. Come on people!!! If you are secure in your own beliefs there is no need to denigrate others now is there?
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Last edited by OzAstrologer; 07-08-2007 at 03:36 AM.
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Unread 07-11-2007, 04:49 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

After reading Ozzi's remarks, I decided to un-delete my thread. I agree completely with Oz. Tyl is not an idiot at all. I find him most intriguing and original. I very much like his book about the Solar Arc predictions. Fascinating. Indeed, you must never base your knowledge solely on one Astrologer's writings, but you can use it for additional insight. I personally love Stephen Arroyo but would also recommend others because every writer can have a different input and that's what makes is all so interesting, whether you totally agree with it or not.

Earlier on I wanted to ask if Arian Maverick maybe could put a list together with planets in their peregrine signs. It would be easy as an overview. I always have used planets in detriment, fall, exhaltation and peregrine in natal astrology. I actually never heard about this being used only in horary astrology. Not in my school it was!

Last edited by starlink; 07-11-2007 at 05:15 PM.
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Unread 07-11-2007, 06:52 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Dharma (Religion) Artha (Physical Money) Kama (Family,children,life mate) Moksha (The purpose of life),these four parts of the Birth Chart,are usefull details about life.1st,5th,9th,arerelated to Dharam,2nd,6th,and 10th related to Artha,3rd,7th,11th are related to Kama,4th,8th,and 12th related to Mokhsa.There are Dharma opposite with Kama,and Artha opposite with Moksha.
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Unread 07-11-2007, 07:57 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Quote:
Earlier on I wanted to ask if Arian Maverick maybe could put a list together with planets in their peregrine signs.
This request would be quite a burden as planets are only peregrine in particular degrees of particular signs. A peregrine planet is not in Domicile, Exhaltion, Triplicty, Term, Face, Detriment, or Fall.
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Unread 07-12-2007, 04:30 PM
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Re: An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

Oh, I did not know that they would have to be in particular degrees only of a certain sign. In that case it would indeed be a lot of work. But in Ptolemy's table of essential dignities and debilities, there is also mentioned that the Sun is exalted at 19° of Aries, Moon 3° of Taurus etc. but I think we always say: Sun is exalted in Aries, Moon in Taurus etc. not really taking notice of the degree. How about that than?
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