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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 08-05-2017, 05:38 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
I know someone who has Saturn in Capricorn in his natal chart, and his life time interest is collecting and reading books. Doesn't mean it has to do with his intellect, but it can increase it.
I agree with this, too. Capricorn is the sign of higher education and learning. With Saturn in Capricorn I'd think it would bring even more structure to thinking and educational paths (such as institutionalized learning). It could also indicate a life-long pursuit of learning (given that Saturn is a slow moving planet). I could also see the potential for rigid thinking, too, when it comes to learned rules and extreme caution about breaking social codes. But of course, it depends how it's aspected.

Great discussion!
Sandy

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Unread 08-06-2017, 10:01 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by blacksun? View Post
I just looked up a few brilliant minds, all of them turned out to have Sat/Merc aspects.

Einstein: Saturn conjunct Mercury in Aries
Newton: Saturn tight square Mercury, Mercury in its supposed detriment, haha.
Darwin: Saturn loosely square Mercury
Descartes and Nietzsche: Saturn trine Mercury
Bohr: Mercury tight square Saturn, with Saturn in its supposed detriment.
Isn't square aspect suppose to make Saturn more malefic, therefore restrict the capacity of Mercury?

Doesn't the fact that both good and bad aspect of Saturn and Mercury connected to the genius people indicate their aspect has actually nothing to do with their being genius?

Isn't it more what house the planets are in, and their dignity which affect the point?
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  #28  
Unread 08-06-2017, 10:50 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksun? View Post

I just looked up a few brilliant minds
all of them turned out to have Sat/Merc aspects.
That's not unexpected
given that as Dirius just highlighted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

You can have some sort of aspect between Mercury and Saturn
in 8 out of 12 signs
which renders 66% of the charts to have an aspect.
So TWO THIRDS of all natal charts have a Saturn Mercury aspect
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksun? View Post

Einstein: Saturn conjunct Mercury in Aries
Newton: Saturn tight square Mercury, Mercury in its supposed detriment, haha.
Darwin: Saturn loosely square Mercury
Descartes and Nietzsche: Saturn trine Mercury
Bohr: Mercury tight square Saturn, with Saturn in its supposed detriment.
that also by implication then
infers that everyone born worldwide
on same day as Einstein, Newton, Darwin, Descartes and Nietzsche
are all "brilliant minds" because they share those aspects
obviously
clearly
there is more to the assessment of intellect than solely Saturn Mercury aspects
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  #29  
Unread 08-06-2017, 12:33 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

It would not be 2/3rds of all charts have an aspect between Mercury and Saturn. It would depend on what orb one used for aspects.

And anyway we can say that someone born on the same day as Einstein would have the same Mercury/Saturn aspect and wasn't like Einstein. You need to remember that becoming a famous genius is as much about luck as intelligence. The person also needs to find themselves in a situation that would also cultivate their intelligence and make them well-known. The vast majority of the population simply does not have that. Such a person with a Merc/Saturn conjunction might still be quite clever, but nobody except their family, peers, and people they do business with will ever know. For "above average" intelligence, that's 50% of the population, mind.
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  #30  
Unread 08-07-2017, 10:31 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by turkish girl View Post
Sorry for my english,i was trying to say that if someone tells something with 5 words,i tell it with 10 words.It is like that.

Regarding other question i label myself as a real aquarius so this could lead talking about humanity problems as well so do I.I don't like talking about myself much,with several people i can but i like privacy.I feel like if venus deal with something in my chart it is mostly fuc*ed up lol sad to realise again she rules communication too lol.
Well, a square from "expanding" Jupiter in Scorpio (not only a sign rather twisted and indirect in its style of expression, but also Venus' detriment) can surely give a problem of this sort.
A Virgo ascendant could often tend to give many (sometimes too many) details, so using many words telling in 5 minutes what could be told in 2.
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Unread 08-07-2017, 10:49 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
Isn't square aspect suppose to make Saturn more malefic, therefore restrict the capacity of Mercury?

Doesn't the fact that both good and bad aspect of Saturn and Mercury connected to the genius people indicate their aspect has actually nothing to do with their being genius?

Isn't it more what house the planets are in, and their dignity which affect the point?
Most astrologers says that a square is simply bad and a trine is simply good, but some like Frawley do not agree.
A trine is an aspect telling that the energies of two planets are working in harmony, they could also harmoniusly work together to bring a person in taking drugs or simply can easily "hurt each other", it is not necessarily a good aspect (ask someone with Moon trine Mars, at least when with bad reception).
A square gives the necessity of more hard work on what is represented by the planets, could even stimulate a person in taking extra efforts on a matter or can give more discipline and self-control, in this case Mercury square Saturn could push someone for a more in-depth and structured study of a matter not satisfied with the explanations he received.

The different aspects of Mercury-Saturn in geniuses' charts simply can indicate a different expression of their genius.
And naturally one can even be a genius without any aspect between Mercury and Saturn.

Maybe I badly expressed myself at the beginning of this thread giving the idea of giving an exagerated importance of Saturn on intelligence.
I wanted simply to say that the situation of Saturn in a chart (even if not in aspect with Mercury) can affect the intelligence (or maybe it is better to say the expression of the intelligence), more than the other planets, so I thought that in the past Saturn had received less consideration than it deserved on this matter.
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  #32  
Unread 08-07-2017, 11:43 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post

Most astrologers says that a square is simply bad
and a trine is simply good,
but some like Frawley do not agree.
Most MODERN astrologers may say that
but you are posting on Traditional board
and
Traditionally
astrologers for thousands of years
have been aware that there is more to a square than "simply bad"
so keep that in mind
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  #33  
Unread 08-07-2017, 12:06 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Most MODERN astrologers may say that
but you are posting on Traditional board
and
Traditionally
astrologers for thousands of years
have been aware that there is more to a square than "simply bad"
so keep that in mind
Thank you for your recommendation.
Still I always saw a sort of ambivalence in the traditional sources about squares, usually they say it's a bad aspect, but indeed they sometimes attribute positive traits or influences to squares.
Also modern astrologers are not unanimous in telling that squares are evil and only evil.
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  #34  
Unread 08-07-2017, 12:20 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post

Thank you for your recommendation.
Still I always saw a sort of ambivalence in the traditional sources
about squares
quotes from these traditional sources that you consider "ambivalent"
would be helpful for clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post

usually they say it's a bad aspect
but indeed they sometimes attribute positive traits or influences
to squares..
I already highlighted that Traditionally
astrologers for thousands of years
have been aware that there is more to a square than "simply bad"
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  #35  
Unread 08-07-2017, 01:28 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
quotes from these traditional sources that you consider "ambivalent"
would be helpful for clarification


I already highlighted that Traditionally
astrologers for thousands of years
have been aware that there is more to a square than "simply bad"
When reading the traditional books I wasn't too much interested on what was their "theorical" view of the aspects (well, traditional sources often are not much theorical anyway), so I had to look watch again in the books to find something but indeed I had not found anything really convincing apart from a generic idea of square and opposition as aspects disarmonius (Ptolemy book 1 chap. 13) or square as unfriendly and opposition as inimical (Al-Biruni par. 374); the other sources I have simply do not talk much about the matter.
So I had not found anything really convincing of my assertion, since these are too vague; thank you for helping me on getting a better focus over this matter.

As for the second point, yes, you already highlighted that, I was simply saying that I agree with you.

Anyway, Senecar seemed to consider a square of Saturn always like an affliction, I wanted only to affirm that in my opinion this is not always so, maybe my reasoning had taken a theorical explanation that seemed linked to (some) modern views, but in fact I was contesting them anyway.
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  #36  
Unread 08-07-2017, 02:09 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

I am not sure if the ancient astrologers have used aspects at all. I was under impression the aspects are quite recent concepts in the traditional astrology itself.

Aspects themselves are not good or bad, but aren't they supposed to be used to look at the relations between two planets in the houses either good or bad, easing supporting and uplifting vs. challenging, difficult and diminishing from the qualities of the planets which become more benefic or malefics under the aspects?
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  #37  
Unread 08-07-2017, 02:22 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post

When reading the traditional books I wasn't too much interested on what was their "theorical" view of the aspects (well, traditional sources often are not much theorical anyway), so I had to look watch again in the books to find something but indeed I had not found anything really convincing apart from a generic idea of square and opposition as aspects disarmonius (Ptolemy book 1 chap. 13) or square as unfriendly and opposition as inimical (Al-Biruni par. 374); the other sources I have simply do not talk much about the matter.
So I had not found anything really convincing of my assertion, since these are too vague; thank you for helping me on getting a better focus over this matter.

As for the second point, yes, you already highlighted that, I was simply saying that I agree with you.

Anyway, Senecar seemed to consider a square of Saturn always like an affliction, I wanted only to affirm that in my opinion this is not always so, maybe my reasoning had taken a theorical explanation that seemed linked to (some) modern views, but in fact I was contesting them anyway.

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book One
translated by David Pingree http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus1.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book Two
translated by David Pingree
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus2.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book Three
translated by David Pingree
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus3.pdf
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  #38  
Unread 08-07-2017, 08:17 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

My Saturn is in the twelfth house, in Capricorn which is also the ascendant, and the Moon is applying fairly close opposition out of the sixth in Cancer. Both are strongly placed in this configuration.

I've always been a cold and distant person, somewhat lacking in "empathy", and have had a difficult time reading the emotions of others. This is sort of what you might expect given a tug of war between Saturn and the Moon. I don't consider myself extremely intelligent, but my reclusive tendencies make me prefer the company of books to people. I've always wondered to what extent intelligence is a matter of temperament rather than pure brainpower.
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  #39  
Unread 08-07-2017, 11:36 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
It would not be 2/3rds of all charts have an aspect between Mercury and Saturn. It would depend on what orb one used for aspects.
In original traditional astrology, aspects are judged by whole sign relation, not degree position (though degree position does have importance).

For example, a planet in Libra is by definition trining each other planet in an air sign (Germini/Aquarius).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post
Thank you for your recommendation.
Still I always saw a sort of ambivalence in the traditional sources about squares, usually they say it's a bad aspect, but indeed they sometimes attribute positive traits or influences to squares.
Also modern astrologers are not unanimous in telling that squares are evil and only evil.
This isn't exactly so. The particular case applies to when authors describe a particular position and its relation to its ruler. For example, to having a kleros aspect its own dispositor even if it is by square/opposition, or the Ascendant's ruler aspecting the ascending house, or having a poorly situated planet aspect the in-sect benefic (Jupiter/Venus).

The idea is that having a bad connection is more desirable than having no connection at all in these particular cases. In the case of the Ascendant ruler, having no aspect with the Ascendant would mean having the planet in one of the 4 malefic houses.

However, for planets that are unrelated this wouldn't be so. You don't really want your, for example, 10th house ruler in square to the out of sect malefic (lets say Saturn). Having no aspect at all would be better in most cases. If saturn has good dignity, then the damage would be lessen, specially if there is a degree of reception among planets, and it can even add some particular traits that aren't bad. However, its not meant to say that this is better than having no aspect to the malefic planet.
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Unread 08-07-2017, 11:51 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
...

The idea is that having a bad connection is more desirable than having no connection at all in these particular cases. In the case of the Ascendant ruler, having no aspect with the Ascendant would mean having the planet in one of the 4 malefic houses.

...
I have a question about the 2nd house. It's not aspected by the ascendant which isn't good but would you consider this house malefic? The main connotation of this house is money which isn't a malefic thing in my opinion, neutral at worst. I've also always seen people ascribing negative labels only to the 6th, 8th and 12th houses, but never the 2nd. Do you know of any authors who explicitly state that this house is malefic and explain why? Just really want to know (especially since I have a planet in that house).
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  #41  
Unread 08-08-2017, 12:07 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by Solar Flare View Post
I have a question about the 2nd house. It's not aspected by the ascendant which isn't good but would you consider this house malefic? The main connotation of this house is money which isn't a malefic thing in my opinion, neutral at worst. I've also always seen people ascribing negative labels only to the 6th, 8th and 12th houses, but never the 2nd. Do you know of any authors who explicitly state that this house is malefic and explain why? Just really want to know (especially since I have a planet in that house).
The description is mostly found in more ancient texts. The reinassance astrologers treat the 2nd house as a more or less neutral succedent house with no attachment to any malefic description.

1) Vettius Valens, Anthologies, Book II

14K;15P. The II Place, Called the Gate of Hades
. The Place Rising After the Ascendant. In this Place the benefics do no good, the malefics make men sluggish and injured, unable to wade through their lives to the end.
---------------------------------------------/-------------------------------------------------------------

The huge difference between the 2nd house and the 6th/8th/12th house is that it isn't directly connected with injury or harm to the native or querent as the other malefic houses, but related to money and material possesion, thus it isn't usually treated as a malefic house. In fact, despite the assertions that "benefics do no good", a strong benefic placed in the house is usually analysed as providing some degree of wealth at some stage in life (which isn't a bad thing).

Usually the 2nd is treated as place where planets can't really express their qualities. From an analitical perspective, the 2nd seems to be less harmfull than the other bad houses, mostly reducing the planet's influence in the whole chart. But it isn't that bad.
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  #42  
Unread 08-08-2017, 02:58 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

For the ancients, 'riches' and 'gates of Hades' would be easily connected. Hades/Pluto, god of the underworld, was also god of wealth, because gold, silver, and gems were things dug from beneath the earth. The Latin name 'Pluto' literally means 'the rich guy'.
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Unread 08-09-2017, 10:53 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
I am not sure if the ancient astrologers have used aspects at all. I was under impression the aspects are quite recent concepts in the traditional astrology itself.

Aspects themselves are not good or bad, but aren't they supposed to be used to look at the relations between two planets in the houses either good or bad, easing supporting and uplifting vs. challenging, difficult and diminishing from the qualities of the planets which become more benefic or malefics under the aspects?
I do not understand what do you mean saying that maybe ancient astrologers didn't used aspects at all (are you talking about babilonians?).

I would say that the relation between planets is given more by how they receive each other than by the aspect; the aspect shows how their respective influences work together.
For instance two persons can esteem each other, but still have some difficulties in working as a cohordinated team (this could be regarded as a square with mutual reception).
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Unread 08-09-2017, 11:11 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post
I do not understand what do you mean saying that maybe ancient astrologers didn't used aspects at all (are you talking about babilonians?).
I need to go back to the book, and confirm that. But I was under impression prior to Ptolemy, the ancient astrologers had not been using aspects that much. I could be wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post
I would say that the relation between planets is given more by how they receive each other than by the aspect; the aspect shows how their respective influences work together.
For instance two persons can esteem each other, but still have some difficulties in working as a cohordinated team (this could be regarded as a square with mutual reception).
I also think more domineering force is planets in the houses and their dignites and rulerships for the long term fortunes, misfortunes, tendencies, capacities, characters and qualities of the natives.

Aspects seem to work more critically on progressed charts for sudden and one off events. Again these are just my speculations without any source supporting. Would appreciate your confirmation on these for right or wrong though
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Unread 08-09-2017, 11:51 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

I need to go back to the book, and confirm that.
But I was under impression prior to Ptolemy, the ancient astrologers
Ptolemy was not a practicing astrologer - even if influential
In contrast, Valens was a practicing astrologer
In fact

today it is common knowledge that
much of Tetrabiblos was collected from earlier sources
;
Ptolemy's achievement was ordering material systematically,
showing how the subject could, he thought, be rationalized.
Explanations are provided for astrological effects of planets, based upon effects of heating, cooling, moistening, and drying.

Ptolemy thought that astrology was like medicine, that is conjectural,
because variable factors such as race, country, and upbringing of a person
affects an individual's personality as much
if not more than
the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets at the precise moment of their birth,
so
Ptolemy saw astrology as something to be used in life
but in no way relied on entirely


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy (scroll down for paragraph heading "Astrology")



VALENS was a practicing astrologer who provides us with a myriad techniques
which he illustrated profusely with charts of his clients
all of which are workable
if studied and applied
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Unread 08-09-2017, 11:57 AM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

the ancient astrologers had not been using aspects that much.
I could be wrong.
THE ANTHOLOGY by Vettius Valens is approximately two thousand years old
AND VALENS chronicles the astrology of predecessors
Valens chronicles two kinds of aspects:
Aspects by SIGN
and
aspects by DEGREE
i.e.
Hellenistic astrologers considered planets in aspect when within an orb of three degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

In original traditional astrology
aspects are judged by whole sign relation, not degree position
(though degree position does have importance).

For example, a planet in Libra
is by definition trining each other planet in an air sign (Germini/Aquarius).
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Unread 08-09-2017, 12:00 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

I also think more domineering force is planets in the houses and their dignites and rulerships for the long term fortunes, misfortunes, tendencies, capacities, characters and qualities of the natives.

Aspects seem to work more critically on progressed charts for sudden and one off events.
Again these are just my speculations without any source supporting.
Would appreciate your confirmation on these for right or wrong though

DIRIUS has explained
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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

This isn't exactly so. The particular case applies to when authors describe a particular position and its relation to its ruler. For example, to having a kleros aspect its own dispositor even if it is by square/opposition, or the Ascendant's ruler aspecting the ascending house, or having a poorly situated planet aspect the in-sect benefic (Jupiter/Venus).

The idea is that having a bad connection is more desirable than having no connection at all in these particular cases. In the case of the Ascendant ruler, having no aspect with the Ascendant would mean having the planet in one of the 4 malefic houses.

However, for planets that are unrelated this wouldn't be so. You don't really want your, for example, 10th house ruler in square to the out of sect malefic (lets say Saturn). Having no aspect at all would be better in most cases. If saturn has good dignity, then the damage would be lessen, specially if there is a degree of reception among planets, and it can even add some particular traits that aren't bad. However, its not meant to say that this is better than having no aspect to the malefic planet.
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Unread 08-09-2017, 12:44 PM
The Cat astrologer The Cat astrologer is offline
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book One
translated by David Pingree http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus1.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book Two
translated by David Pingree
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus2.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book Three
translated by David Pingree
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus3.pdf
Thank you for the links, I've never read Dorotheus until now, I will read it when I will have more time.
Is it really only of about 50 pages?
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Last edited by The Cat astrologer; 08-09-2017 at 12:47 PM.
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Unread 08-09-2017, 01:06 PM
The Cat astrologer The Cat astrologer is offline
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
This isn't exactly so. The particular case applies to when authors describe a particular position and its relation to its ruler. For example, to having a kleros aspect its own dispositor even if it is by square/opposition, or the Ascendant's ruler aspecting the ascending house, or having a poorly situated planet aspect the in-sect benefic (Jupiter/Venus).

The idea is that having a bad connection is more desirable than having no connection at all in these particular cases. In the case of the Ascendant ruler, having no aspect with the Ascendant would mean having the planet in one of the 4 malefic houses.

However, for planets that are unrelated this wouldn't be so. You don't really want your, for example, 10th house ruler in square to the out of sect malefic (lets say Saturn). Having no aspect at all would be better in most cases. If saturn has good dignity, then the damage would be lessen, specially if there is a degree of reception among planets, and it can even add some particular traits that aren't bad. However, its not meant to say that this is better than having no aspect to the malefic planet.
Indeed most of the occasions mentioned fall in the category you gave (plus the Mercury-Moon aspect for evaluating the wit).
But among this and your extreme example of Saturn there are other cases:
Abu Bakr chapter II.1.6 (pag 145 of Ben Dykes translation in Persian nativities II):
"If the Moon appearing in the Midheaven aspected Saturn by a square aspect [so we would often have even an out of sect Saturn with this configuration], with Saturn appearing in the 2nd house, it is a sign that the native wull have beatiful morals."

Naturally I do not concord 100% with this quotation, I understand the logic, but I do not expect this configuration to always give this good effect, there are other considerations to take in account (like essential dignities, reception etc).

I have also to confess that I do not consider the sect of the planets (I am strongly influenced by the traditional astrologer John Frawley in this).
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Last edited by The Cat astrologer; 08-09-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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Unread 08-09-2017, 02:01 PM
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Re: Saturn and intellect

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Originally Posted by The Cat astrologer View Post

I have also to confess that I do not consider the sect of the planets

(I am strongly influenced by the traditional astrologer John Frawley in this).
Benjamin Dykes is a traditional astrologer https://www.bendykes.com/
but just days ago we had the following comment posted
which highlights problems caused by Frawley "methods"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mystic91 View Post

I
ve learnt most of my Horary
from John Frawleys book,
but i've since found out
that he's been learning people
to do the receptions the wrong way around


So now im trying to get my head around the correct way,


so does this sound correct ?.....

In a recent chart i have venus at 5 degrees cancer, and mars the quesited is at 10degrees Leo, and combust the sun.

So if i'm saying that mars receives venus by triplicity and fall, is this correct ? So mars is quite fond of venus but at present due to circumstances he can't give venus what she wants (fall).

And venus doesn't receive mars at all ? so she's powerless in being able to do anything.

Does this sound about right ?
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