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  #101  
Unread 07-27-2017, 09:27 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Unaspected Sun, in the 12th?


That is rough, not going to lie.

But your Sun does progress and it will be making aspects now by progression.

It might be interesting for you to look at your progressed Sun to see what you can build on now.

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  #102  
Unread 07-27-2017, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catowm View Post
I have self hating thoughts all the days before going to sleep, I blame myself for: being lazy, don't get a normal job, Inherit illnesses, for waste my life in my bedroom and not be able to out because I don't want to be hurt again by my family (Saturn in 4th ?), for not being capable of touch any person because when a person touch me or is near to me, I feel in danger.

I know, that sounds weird! an yes, I also blame myself for being weird. I can not be in public places because I feel really nervous and stresses when people look at me.

My sun is in scorpio in 12th without aspects, my moon is in virgo and my ascendant is in scorpio.
Is Saturn Square your Ascendant?
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  #103  
Unread 07-27-2017, 03:32 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by catowm View Post
I have self hating thoughts all the days before going to sleep, I blame myself for: being lazy, don't get a normal job, Inherit illnesses, for waste my life in my bedroom and not be able to out because I don't want to be hurt again by my family (Saturn in 4th ?), for not being capable of touch any person because when a person touch me or is near to me, I feel in danger.
A lot of this sounds like it might come from life experience. You wouldn't be afraid of your family hurting you again if they hadn't already done it. Fear of anyone touching or being near you... if anyone's ever done you serious physical harm, that could do it. It's also possible, of course, that you're simply very sensitive to touch and to others.

What makes it manifest as self hating thoughts, though, could involve astrological factors.
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  #104  
Unread 07-27-2017, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by catowm View Post
Yes, but I think the square is too wide, my ascendant is 19º Scorpio and saturn is 12º conjunct my IC.
Try looking up Saturn Conjunct I.C. at astrofix.net. Seems to fit some of what you've said.
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  #105  
Unread 07-27-2017, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by catowm View Post
That description fits with me very well, except the part of:

"Feeling that you have a duty to your country or place of origin."
Yeah, wonder where THAT came from? Doesn't fit with the rest.
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  #106  
Unread 07-27-2017, 08:18 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by catowm View Post
That description fits with me very well, except the part of:

"Feeling that you have a duty to your country or place of origin."
But if you felt that your country was doing good things for you, then you probably would feel a duty and an obligation to it.
But sadly, you don't feel it is offering much opportunity or hopes for a good future at this time.

Sorry to hear about your Father. That is sad.
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  #107  
Unread 07-27-2017, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
But if you felt that your country was doing good things for you, then you probably would feel a duty and an obligation to it.
"Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country!"--{JFK} Not too sure about that, but it does have a ring to it.
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  #108  
Unread 07-27-2017, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by catowm View Post
At 19 years old, my progressed sun was conjunct my ascendant and my loved grandma died, I had to go to with at psychologist a couple of times at that time because I thought in suicide.

At 21 years old, it made a conjunct with mercury/pluto and I was involved in occultism searching my path of life. It was a awesome experience, I received advice from a medium and she tell me all my past and some advice to the future.

Right now my progressed sun is not making aspects to other planets but in 3 years it will make a sextile with my natal moon.

Currently my progressed moon is conjunct Chiron in 10th Sqr exactly my mercury/pluto in 1st. I was expecting something important but nothing happened
Dr. farr has convinced me that Declination is important. It's possible that the Declination was too wide. Something to check on. When I have time, I'm going to be checking it in my own situation. It would explain why some Saturn Returns are more intense than others, for example.
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  #109  
Unread 07-28-2017, 05:58 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

catowm, is getting a medical referral to meet with a mental health professional at all possible for you? There is self-hatred, but then there are deeper emotional scars left by childhood abuse. Professional help should be beneficial.
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  #110  
Unread 07-28-2017, 06:41 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Traditionally, the ascendant tells of the state of the body and the ruler of the ascendant tells of the state of the mind. This isn't hard-and-fast, almost nothing in astrology is, but I've found it to be largely true.

If you're prone to self-hating thoughts - what does your ascendant ruler look like? Where is it in the chart? Are there afflictions? From which planets?
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  #111  
Unread 07-28-2017, 08:22 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Traditionally, the ascendant tells of the state of the body and the ruler of the ascendant tells of the state of the mind. This isn't hard-and-fast, almost nothing in astrology is, but I've found it to be largely true.

If you're prone to self-hating thoughts - what does your ascendant ruler look like? Where is it in the chart? Are there afflictions? From which planets?
In Catowm's case her ascendant ruler is touched upon by a fall Mars in the 9th, I believe. Ruler in Virgo, Scorpio Mercury (I think) so Mars plays a great role there.

Ooh yea. Fall Mars is ascendant ruler.

Last edited by Blaze; 07-28-2017 at 08:28 PM.
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  #112  
Unread 07-28-2017, 09:26 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Maybe that's not literally what you should do, but something in that spirit, perhaps yes. Capricorn is the archetypal hermit. And the archetypal mountain goat.


So what is it about this hermit on a mountainside raising goats fantasy that speaks to you? Being alone? Being on the mountainside? Goats?

Then take it a step further: what is it about being alone that speaks to you? Or about being on a mountainside?

Whatever's underneath that, that's what will feed your Capricorn moon.
You know your Capricorn stuff well - Yep, even Cap's ruler, Saturn (Or Satan, sorry but it is the same image) is depicted as a hooved goat so the goat and the mountainside go well. I love hanging around mountains personally.

Quote:
You're a triple Capricorn! Maybe that's the Aries-like element you see? Seems to me that the combination of cardinal and first sign and all that energy there would do it.
I think it's the first house Sun-Jupiter since yes that is an Aries house and Jupiter is also a fire planet even if it's not at home in Cap. I guess Uranus in Sag would be part of this too but don't actually see its energy playing out in my life.


Quote:
You've told me things about myself that were never verbalized when you've posted in my threads. Definitely true!
Glad you are confirming it - but that could be Moon-Merc with Neptune/Pluto and both aspecting AC and MC. Supposedly these have some of that where Chiron would be more about learning a ton about something because one is having such trouble practicing it themselves.


Quote:
Hmmm.... I don't think I've ever flat out told anyone to do something about becoming themselves, except maybe in astrology readings, and then it's just a suggestion ("your chart shows you need x, what are you doing about that?") But maybe Aries is about being and showing instead of telling?
Sounds about right, or telling them what they need to do to get to a "just do it" state of mind.

Quote:
It is much easier to protect oneself than to protect others from yourself, so it's not even a consideration.
Graay ghost, do you have any hard aspects between say your Sun and Pluto? The definition you gave here sounds like you might have just such an aspect.


Quote:
Currently my progressed moon is conjunct Chiron in 10th Sqr exactly my mercury/pluto in 1st. I was expecting something important but nothing happened
Catowm - that sounds like a painful configuration so I'm glad nothing bad actually happened. Gives me hope for an upcoming Chiron progression I'll be having (prog. Sun square Chiron) very soon that has been scaring the *** out of me..
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  #113  
Unread 07-28-2017, 10:30 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by jkxx74 View Post
Graay ghost, do you have any hard aspects between say your Sun and Pluto? The definition you gave here sounds like you might have just such an aspect.
Maybe by progression. In my natal I have a Sun Pluto trine.

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  #114  
Unread 07-30-2017, 11:34 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Traditionally, the ascendant tells of the state of the body and the ruler of the ascendant tells of the state of the mind. This isn't hard-and-fast, almost nothing in astrology is, but I've found it to be largely true.

If you're prone to self-hating thoughts - what does your ascendant ruler look like? Where is it in the chart? Are there afflictions? From which planets?
Interesting. And it looks like at least three contributors in this thread who acknowledge self hating thoughts (including me) are Capricorn rising... so there's a lot of Saturn here. Isn't Saturn and/or Capricorn traditionally linked with melancholy?

In my case, Saturn is probably the second most afflicted of my traditional planets (after Venus... Saturn has the dignity of being in an angular house and direct, while Venus is retrograde in the eighth, but both weakened by their sign placements and squares). Squared by Jupiter.
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  #115  
Unread 07-30-2017, 11:44 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by sadge View Post
Regarding the original question, yes, the asc and the chart ruler are key players in how an individual navigates life, interacts with it, and processes it. So of course there is some validity to be found in the original poster’s theory. Many other potential indicators of insecurity have been noted by others on this thread so I will spare you from another astro-monologue.

Rather, here is a story that speaks directly to the original post and asks you to consider the question from a different light:

There is someone in this thread, and you know who you are. We had a point of serious misunderstanding with one another. But we talked it through, understood the situation from each other’s point of view, and in the end, we ended up reaching a genuine level of love and respect for one another rather than animosity. This achievement would not have been possible if this other person did not have the ability to receive my communication with an ability to see outside of him/herself. This person had the ability to detach and reflect objectively so that another point of view could be understood. Repeat: I had to reach out….but this other person had to be receptive to it. Our achievement would not have been possible without that receptivity. We both had to see the situation from each other's point of view.

So what one refers to as "self hate" could possibly be the potential for deep introspection or reflection. Maybe you're just looking at it the wrong way.

There is priceless value and strength to be found in those who have the ability to be self-reflective. It is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. If the potential is there within a natal chart for one to be “self-critical,” then for an astrologer, the next step is to help someone recognize its potential to become a strength and to channel it that way.

Tense aspects or challenging placements are often our greatest source of strength for achieving a deeper level of understanding in whatever area of life is emphasized. If you see a chart with nothing but all of the planets in perfect grand trines, then you’re probably looking at someone who just psychological sits in place with drool hanging out of his mouth. Our biggest leaps forward in life come from the tension that is generated from our charts. But the greatest skillset one can have is the ability to be self-reflective in an honest way. How else do we improve ourselves and take it to the next level? How else do we connect with one another?

The key is for someone to transform “self-hate” into “self-reflection.”
S. :-)
This is an amazing, powerful post!

I don't suppose all the planets ever could be in grand trines at once, especially if you include the modern ones, but point taken.

And how do you think self hate could turn into a strength? Most self hating thoughts are not about a correctable defect. In most cases, the self hating thought isn't even true. The person thinking, "I'm ugly," isn't considered ugly by others. The person thinking, "I'm incompetent," isn't objectively incompetent. The person thinking, "I'm unintelligent," is actually quite intelligent.

Outside of this thread, I have a friend who once confessed that her big self put down is thinking, "They won't like me," wherever she goes, whatever group of people she's with. Funny thing is, she is probably the most likeable person I've ever met. And I'm not the only person who thinks so. Mutual friends have remarked on how likeable she is.

So this seems like a very tricksy kind of self reflection.
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  #116  
Unread 07-31-2017, 01:26 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Osamenor,

interesting indeed. Some of the responses I have come up with for people recently are making me think along these lines as well but with a twist.

Saturn does seem to be capable on its own of coming up with the message that "there is and never will be anything better for you out there" if sufficiently powerful in the chart so that it has enough adherents in terms of planets falling in its sign or house. The Capricorn Asc then becomes another conduit to validate its case in making it so whatever you pick up from the environment aligns with Saturn. But that would only go as far as encouraging self-defeating thoughts.

It seems if you then have another faction, say in Fire (Water can work too if the planet is a more active one like Pluto), that doesn't answer to Saturn that faction of planets can get worked up because it isn't buying Saturn's message even if the other planets are. So then you could end up with a split and two parts of the personality - one feeling defeated, one wronged and angry, that are now at odds. That seems sufficiently active to go from self defeat to self hating. Only a theory here though.

To sadge's post - maybe it's about realizing where we habitually evaluate something the wrong way ("perception is reality") and trying to set up a reminder of sorts so we are reminded of doing it when the situation comes up?

sadge,

thank you for that insightful post. Definitely worth pondering. I still am
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  #117  
Unread 07-31-2017, 01:38 AM
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Constant frustration turned inward could produce "self-hatred".
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  #118  
Unread 07-31-2017, 03:16 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

I don't experience a lot of 'self hating' thoughts. I tried to think back to when I was younger, and I think I was mostly critical and insecure about my curves. Although looking back, looking at pictures, I was in very good shape.

I was very athletic and have Taurus rising, with Venus in Sag in the 7th. I was a competitive slalom skier and a ski teacher for many years and a water skier.

So I wonder if my Jupiter protects me from active self hating thoughts.

I have the Asc. @ 21Taurus. And Jupiter @ 18 Taurus. So maybe Jupiter is the buffer?
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  #119  
Unread 07-31-2017, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I don't experience a lot of 'self hating' thoughts. I tried to think back to when I was younger, and I think I was mostly critical and insecure about my curves. Although looking back, looking at pictures, I was in very good shape.

I was very athletic and have Taurus rising, with Venus in Sag in the 7th. I was a competitive slalom skier and a ski teacher for many years and a water skier.

So I wonder if my Jupiter protects me from active self hating thoughts.

I have the Asc. @ 21Taurus. And Jupiter @ 18 Taurus. So maybe Jupiter is the buffer?
I still think Capricorn and Virgo Asc and/or Moon would cause most of the problem. Air and Fire Suns (especially Leo) would help alleviate it.
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  #120  
Unread 07-31-2017, 03:57 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I still think Capricorn and Virgo Asc and/or Moon would cause most of the problem. Air and Fire Suns (especially Leo) would help alleviate it.
I know some Gemini Ascendants who are very self critical and have problems with negative thoughts about themselves.

One is a Gemini with Gem rising, sun in the 12th.

One is an Aries, sun in the 11th, Gemini rising, Mercury in Aries combust Sun.

My niece has Gemini Moon in the first, Gemini rising. And she is very vocal about her self critical thoughts. But it might be from her Mercury/Venus in Virgo squaring her Moon?
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  #121  
Unread 07-31-2017, 04:01 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
My niece has Gemini Moon in the first, Gemini rising. And she is very vocal about her self critical thoughts. But it might be from her Mercury/Venus in Virgo squaring her Moon?
The square might be a factor in her having self critical thoughts, and maybe in what kind of self critical thoughts she has. But that she's so vocal about them sounds very, very Gemini to me. Other rising signs, particularly the ones known for quietness and inwardness, might keep their self hating thoughts entirely to themselves, so that they could be sitting there stewing in self hatred and no one besides them would have any idea.
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  #122  
Unread 07-31-2017, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I know some Gemini Ascendants who are very self critical and have problems with negative thoughts about themselves.

One is a Gemini with Gem rising, sun in the 12th.

One is an Aries, sun in the 11th, Gemini rising, Mercury in Aries combust Sun.

My niece has Gemini Moon in the first, Gemini rising. And she is very vocal about her self critical thoughts. But it might be from her Mercury/Venus in Virgo squaring her Moon?
Come to think, I know several Aries Suns (Charts unknown) who are self-critical, but not self-hating. Maybe they set the bar very high for themselves.
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  #123  
Unread 07-31-2017, 04:52 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
The square might be a factor in her having self critical thoughts, and maybe in what kind of self critical thoughts she has. But that she's so vocal about them sounds very, very Gemini to me. Other rising signs, particularly the ones known for quietness and inwardness, might keep their self hating thoughts entirely to themselves, so that they could be sitting there stewing in self hatred and no one besides them would have any idea.
Yes, but interestingly, she is not that emotional about the self critical thoughts she vocalizes. It is very Gemini.

For a recent example, she helped me a lot when I was planning the rehearsal party for my sons wedding. There were a lot of the brides family coming from out of town, so it took a lot of planning and communication with people.

My niece offered to help because she is really good at that kind of thing. She used to be a travel agent and likes those kinds of details and does event planning.

But we had a few glitches and she messed up a couple small things, no big deal. But I was surprised by the way she kept speaking about it at the dinner--not just a quick apology but she was kind of putting herself down, saying she was stupid for not double checking and for misreading something, and she repeatedly said she should not be so ditzy. But she kept saying this to the people from the brides family that she just met.

And she was not sad or upset or emotional---just saying it as fact. lol " Sometimes I am so stupid, what a ditz..pass the bread please, thanks..."

Last edited by katydid; 07-31-2017 at 04:55 AM.
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  #124  
Unread 07-31-2017, 06:25 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by sadge View Post
. That Saturn will be able to say something of importance about that 7H while that Jupiter is sucking on a lollipop and signing contracts like its going out of style. (Okay, so my analogies can be a bit colorful, but you get my drift....)


S.
So, you've never seen someone who's life was pretty much wrecked by, say, an out-of-sect angular Jupiter? I have. A few times. I've got an out-of-sect angular Jupiter and it's taught me quite a bit. Didn't wreck my life.

Like everything else in a chart....it depends.

I get that you're trying to make an analogy, but what you're saying is woefully too simple.

Try to look at it this way: Jupiter will try to bring good, because that's its nature. If it's in really bad shape, the 'good' it brings might actually be bad. Saturn will always bring harm, because that's its nature. What you need to determine is if it will bring the most harm to the querent, or if it represents the harm that the querent does, and whether the harm is worth it, and how, perhaps to mitigate it. I can think of a few 7th house Saturn scenarios, and some of them - it's going to be up to the person to judge. Remember, Saturn may bring wisdom sometimes, but often, Saturn lies.
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  #125  
Unread 07-31-2017, 06:37 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

I find "harm" to be too concrete a word to use in a field as nebulous and unverified as astrology.
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