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  #76  
Unread 07-25-2017, 11:33 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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I see how those might be related to self esteem issues. But what, do you think, leads you to make those issues about your looks or people (not) liking you, rather than about your abilities or competence?
I am going way out on a limb but I'll try it - the Sun-Jupiter conjunct is fiery and placed in a fire house (Mars' house) so that duo would like to play by fiery rules - but it's placed in Cap and aspecting the chart ruler Saturn. Saturn is in a very bad place where it is, and by some accounts it might even be peregrine - but I'd love to get confirmation of this from someone knowledgeable. So to start with Saturn is telling Sun-Jup to go have fun with itself and as a powerful planet it has some authority - thus the 1st house planets are canceled out. From there you have to rely on other planets, and the next logical choice is Venus.

Venus is in a decent place, by sign and house at least, but it's in exact square to perfection-demanding Uranus. And as a sort of singleton Uranus too has some influence as the only true fire planet in the chart and can really bring Venus down as it really doesn't go along with its vision of how things out to be. Venus can then air its grievances through Mercury which again feeds into Saturn so this too is likely to be noticed - or a similar story with the Saturn-controlled ascendant. If I had to make a conclusion it would be something like "a series of connected unfortunate misunderstandings" which just happen to feed off each other.

The thing that does strike me as obvious is people's nearly universal negative reactions - that's all Saturn needs to get going and it gives plenty of ammo to Uranus as well. Not even getting into Chiron and its placement here but it could be playing a role.

Abilities or competence are not particularly important when it comes to this, I've (not) joked with people that most of the pain of moving to a new job would be losing the people I like at the old one. But I don't know what planet combo this would describe.

All in all I don't get very many friendly reactions from people and the natural thing to assume is that it is my fault - but that may also be the multitude of planets falling under Neptune's rule that are hyper-sensitive to this.

If you thought the Chiron commentary was worthwhile I could go further but I'm not sure which bit seemed relevant.

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  #77  
Unread 07-25-2017, 11:35 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
It must be weird to have Moon in Leo as well.
I'm a lunar Leo, and I think it's a great placement. As a mature woman with a night birth, my Leo moon would be stronger than my Aquarian sun, by some point-tallies. Since the moon rules one's feelings, it helps to feel "sunny," generous, playful, and so on.

But everyone needs to feed their moon. The moon rules one's home, so having a home that gets a lot of daylight is good for a lunar Leo. Even better, in a desert climate, as Leo rules deserts. In winter, light candles or put a fire in the fireplace, if you have one.

Pisces moon? Maybe this person can keep a home aquarium/fish tank, and live by the ocean.

It occurs to me that an unhappy important sign, whether it's the ascendant, sun-sign, or another planet's abode, is being starved for something.

With the ascendant as how we present ourselves to the world and come across to others, a starved Capricorn rising probably feels best being practical (earth) and setting achievable goals. The big goals need to be first broken down into small steps, so that the feeling of achievement is achievable.

One thing that affects any rising sign is the situation of the planet that rules it. To paraphrase Demetra George, the house and/or sign ruler (she uses whole signs) wants to help out the affairs of its house, but whether it can do so brilliantly or poorly depends upon its own situation.

So, for example, suppose Capricorn (or Aquarius) rising are ruled by Saturn conjunct Mercury. One reading would be "pessimistic thinking." Where as Sagittarius (or Pisces) rising are ruled (co-ruled) by Jupiter. Jupiter conjunct Mercury might mean "optimistic thinking."

So the rising sign itself is just a first step.

Further, the ascendant ruler or the sun in the 12th might indicate someone who prefers to work behind the scenes. If s/he's thrust into public speaking on the job, this person might beat herself up for making a hash of it, especially if the ascendant ruler is afflicted.
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  #78  
Unread 07-26-2017, 01:15 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by jkxx74 View Post
I am going way out on a limb but I'll try it - the Sun-Jupiter conjunct is fiery and placed in a fire house (Mars' house) so that duo would like to play by fiery rules - but it's placed in Cap and aspecting the chart ruler Saturn. Saturn is in a very bad place where it is, and by some accounts it might even be peregrine - but I'd love to get confirmation of this from someone knowledgeable. So to start with Saturn is telling Sun-Jup to go have fun with itself and as a powerful planet it has some authority - thus the 1st house planets are canceled out. From there you have to rely on other planets, and the next logical choice is Venus.
So you have your sun in the first house? That sounds like some correlation with Leo rising, even though you don't actually have Leo rising.

I actually stumbled upon something, I don't remember exactly where, about Chiron placements and how they relate to sense of self. What they said about Chiron in Aries (which I have) struck home to me much more than what they said about Chiron in the fourth house (which I also have). Aries has to do with sense of self and can-do, and Chiron there would be a wound there. Where do you have Chiron? I can't access your chart at the link in your signature.

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If you thought the Chiron commentary was worthwhile I could go further but I'm not sure which bit seemed relevant.
What you said about Chiron, I don't think I can see for myself, probably because I'm living it. Help other people unfold in terms of their core personality? Maybe I can do that as an astrologer. Maybe I've done it already and don't know. I do have one story coming to mind:

A friend I've known and been very close with since my late teens told me some years ago that he learned to accept himself in large part because I accepted him. Then he came out as transgender, and now is a she. For her, that change is all about an unfolding of core self. She describes it as "getting to be the woman I always was." Now, I didn't cause that to happen, it was all about my friend's choices, but according to my friend, I have a role in it all.

What really strikes me as profound is waybread's post:
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interesting insights on Chiron-Jupiter.

To me this planetary combo can have two modes:

1. The world of hurt. Chiron blights Jupiter's normal faith and optimism

2. Both Chiron and Jupiter deal with wisdom. Chiron's wisdom comes from those wounds that don't heal; but that if accepted, lead to wisdom and compassion. Jupiter's wisdom is more straight-up; but then Jupiter in a hard aspect will feel evolutionary pressures from the other planet.
World of hurt, I can certainly see. The "wounds that don't heal" seems even more profound. But I would rephrase the "but if accepted part," because it can easily be interpreted in a Saturn trickster way: you have to accept hating yourself because that's a wound that won't heal, no matter what. Instead, I would call it a wound that is always in the process of healing. It's healing to be in the process of healing, even if the healing is never complete.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 01:45 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Yes, updated chart attached until I get a permanent link working. And you are right, it could count that way though I always thought of it as being a little like Sun in Aries if not quite. Either way there is the fire element at odds with earth.

Chiron is actually in Gemini (but in the 5th house) but aspecting the Sun if you allow wide orbs. So yes that theme could well be there. Aries from what I have read has to do with potency or one's ability to get going and fight for what whatever one values when called for to do this. Thus Chiron here would definitely be problematic.

This does sound like Chiron in action though - the comment I get usually is that people find I have told them something about themselves that they suspected but was never verbalized. With Aries it would be about encouraging them to "do" something about becoming themselves, Gemini would be more about telling them about this. In very simple terms.

I can relate to the paragraph on Saturn too. If accepted maybe referred to if accepted by others, but it really comes down to acceptance by oneself with both Saturn and Chiron so the goal towards this becomes a sort of driving force in itself. Because it really is very important towards moving forward in any way as both planets tend to have a way of blocking progress otherwise.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 06:32 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

JKXX,

I like that chart in the areas of career (10th) and homelife (4th house). It is a little weak on the partner front (7th house), as the ruler, the Moon, is fallen in Capricorn. Also, it is conj. Nep, which lends spirituality perhaps, but there could be issues with disillusionment and deception.

Can I ask what you do career wise? I see that Mars, which rules our career house, has some dignity in Pisces, and is also conjunct a strong (exalted) Venus. Saturn in the 10th house could mean that, after overcoming some hurdles, you can rise in your career. Is it your own business there that you have? I am trying to understand the placement of Saturn (ruler of your second house) in the 10th house, and the ruler of your 10th house, Mars, in the 2nd. There is mutual dignity between both the planets, too, and that further strengthens the relationship between money and career, which must be good.
Saturn in the 10th however means you will always strive to achieve more and rise higher.

Anything ring true there?
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Unread 07-26-2017, 09:05 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Hi aquarius7000 and thank you for that analysis.

Yes, there are some things which stand out from what you posted. The "career" would actually be 7th house matters while true career matters are not particularly important to me although I have been doing a slow and steady job of it in the last few years. I did try to have my own business but again only at times when 7th house matters were going well. It is always related to technology, specifically software development so perhaps influenced by Venus/Mars-Uranus. I would say I'm doing pretty well considering I'm not trying very hard at the moment and that might be the duo in the 2nd house.

Saturn did cross over what is now my progressed MC last year which is exactly when I had a promotion.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 11:38 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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But everyone needs to feed their moon. The moon rules one's home, so having a home that gets a lot of daylight is good for a lunar Leo. Even better, in a desert climate, as Leo rules deserts. In winter, light candles or put a fire in the fireplace, if you have one.

Pisces moon? Maybe this person can keep a home aquarium/fish tank, and live by the ocean.
Wait. I have a Capricorn moon. When I'm feeling particularly down on myself and do not think I deserve to live in this world I think about becoming a hermit on a mountainside raising goats. Are you saying I should actually do this?
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Unread 07-26-2017, 11:48 AM
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Wait. I have a Capricorn moon. When I'm feeling particularly down on myself and do not think I deserve to live in this world I think about becoming a hermit on a mountainside raising goats. Are you saying I should actually do this?
Only if you could still access Astrology Weekly on the internet. Being a hermit ain't what it used to be.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 12:14 PM
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Smile Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Gray ghost, just curious--ARE you especially fond of goats?
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Unread 07-26-2017, 12:23 PM
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Gray ghost, just curious--ARE you especially fond of goats?
I'm not sure I would say I'm especially fond of goats, but among livestock, they're probably the most entertaining.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 03:27 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Wait. I have a Capricorn moon. When I'm feeling particularly down on myself and do not think I deserve to live in this world I think about becoming a hermit on a mountainside raising goats. Are you saying I should actually do this?
Maybe that's not literally what you should do, but something in that spirit, perhaps yes. Capricorn is the archetypal hermit. And the archetypal mountain goat.

So what is it about this hermit on a mountainside raising goats fantasy that speaks to you? Being alone? Being on the mountainside? Goats?

Then take it a step further: what is it about being alone that speaks to you? Or about being on a mountainside?

Whatever's underneath that, that's what will feed your Capricorn moon.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 03:54 PM
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Maybe that's not literally what you should do, but something in that spirit, perhaps yes. Capricorn is the archetypal hermit. And the archetypal mountain goat.

So what is it about this hermit on a mountainside raising goats fantasy that speaks to you? Being alone? Being on the mountainside? Goats?

Then take it a step further: what is it about being alone that speaks to you? Or about being on a mountainside?

Whatever's underneath that, that's what will feed your Capricorn moon.
If I'm far away from all other human contact, I can't hurt anybody.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 03:57 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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If I'm far away from all other human contact, I can't hurt anybody.
Interesting that you say "I can't hurt anybody" instead of "nobody can hurt me."
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Unread 07-26-2017, 04:05 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Yes, updated chart attached until I get a permanent link working. And you are right, it could count that way though I always thought of it as being a little like Sun in Aries if not quite. Either way there is the fire element at odds with earth.
You're a triple Capricorn! Maybe that's the Aries-like element you see? Seems to me that the combination of cardinal and first sign and all that energy there would do it.

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This does sound like Chiron in action though - the comment I get usually is that people find I have told them something about themselves that they suspected but was never verbalized.
You've told me things about myself that were never verbalized when you've posted in my threads. Definitely true!
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With Aries it would be about encouraging them to "do" something about becoming themselves, Gemini would be more about telling them about this. In very simple terms.
Hmmm.... I don't think I've ever flat out told anyone to do something about becoming themselves, except maybe in astrology readings, and then it's just a suggestion ("your chart shows you need x, what are you doing about that?") But maybe Aries is about being and showing instead of telling?
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Unread 07-26-2017, 04:23 PM
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Interesting that you say "I can't hurt anybody" instead of "nobody can hurt me."

I'm not really sure why that's that interesting.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 05:36 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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I'm not really sure why that's that interesting.
If you're that concerned about hurting others, and have all kinds of self esteem issues too, that right there is proof that you're at much greater risk of being hurt than of hurting anyone else. But when you think of being alone, it's not that you want to protect yourself from others, but to protect others from you?

The picture I'm getting is that what you really want is to feel safe. Which would, btw, fit very well with your combination of sun, moon, and rising signs.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 06:01 PM
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If you're that concerned about hurting others, and have all kinds of self esteem issues too, that right there is proof that you're at much greater risk of being hurt than of hurting anyone else. But when you think of being alone, it's not that you want to protect yourself from others, but to protect others from you?

The picture I'm getting is that what you really want is to feel safe. Which would, btw, fit very well with your combination of sun, moon, and rising signs.
It is much easier to protect oneself than to protect others from yourself, so it's not even a consideration.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 08:30 PM
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I'm not really sure why that's that interesting.
It means you're dangerous. So, being a good person, you distance yourself from others, and allow others to distance themselves from you without acrimony. I actually know someone like that, and fondness in her case (Cancer Sun, Aqua Asc, Sag. Moon) means protecting by withdrawing, but staying in touch on birthdays and some holidays (cards and letters). Terrible parents--really bad.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 08:40 PM
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Smile Re: Self hating thoughts rising

She's deceptively fun to be around. She's dangerous on an unseen level, but the end results are painfully obvious.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 09:22 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Wait. I have a Capricorn moon. When I'm feeling particularly down on myself and do not think I deserve to live in this world I think about becoming a hermit on a mountainside raising goats. Are you saying I should actually do this?
I didn't mean that you have a Pisces moon-- this was just one example.

But think about Capricorn. I don't know where you live now, but many people enjoy hiking in the mountains; some go further and take up rock-climbing or ski touring in the mountains. Capricorn is symbolized by the sea-goat, half aquatic, half terrestrial. So something like kayaking or sailing.

If you live in a rural area where you could actually keep goats and happen to like them, for sure. (Have you heard of pack goats?)

If you appreciate solitude, see if you can take up long-distance running or simply carving out some solitary time to yourself on a daily basis.

If these activities don't ring your chimes, you shouldn't have to look hard to find something Saturnian or Capricornian that does. But only you can put yourself into the life-affirming activities for a Saturn/Capricorn person.

The main thing is to nourish your emotional nature.

If you're alive, you deserve to stay that way.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 11:31 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

I mean as long as we're in the realm of self-hating thoughts, a big one for me is that I will never be "beautiful" to anyone. Taurus is ruled by Venus, I suppose.
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Unread 07-26-2017, 11:36 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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I mean as long as we're in the realm of self-hating thoughts, a big one for me is that I will never be "beautiful" to anyone. Taurus is ruled by Venus, I suppose.
I wonder if Mars on your AC plays any part? As I recall, you have a Chiron/Mercury conjunction square to it, and Saturn in square as well, all part of that fixed grand cross. Since we were on the subject of Chiron and Saturn a little ways up thread.
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Unread 07-27-2017, 12:35 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Wait. I have a Capricorn moon. When I'm feeling particularly down on myself and do not think I deserve to live in this world I think about becoming a hermit on a mountainside raising goats. Are you saying I should actually do this?
LOL, and I cannot actually stop laughing reading that post, and I will tell you why. I am a Cap Moon, too, with the Sun in the 6th house (so fond of small animals, actually animals in general), and I do go to feed goats at a county park almost every weekend. My weekend grocery shopping includes a big cabbage for the goats, carrots for Miss Katey (an old, discarded military horse), a mix of all sorts of veggie peals (like cucumber, left over green beans, etc.) for Miss Bacon and Miss Greedy (two pigs), and bread crumbs for the varied variety of birds, hens and cocks.
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Unread 07-27-2017, 03:22 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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LOL, and I cannot actually stop laughing reading that post, and I will tell you why. I am a Cap Moon, too, with the Sun in the 6th house (so fond of small animals, actually animals in general), and I do go to feed goats at a county park almost every weekend. My weekend grocery shopping includes a big cabbage for the goats, carrots for Miss Katey (an old, discarded military horse), a mix of all sorts of veggie peals (like cucumber, left over green beans, etc.) for Miss Bacon and Miss Greedy (two pigs), and bread crumbs for the varied variety of birds, hens and cocks.
You have livestock at the county park? At parks here all the animals are wild... when I go to cities I love seeing the pigeons. It's so fascinating how differently the wildlife behaves in different places. In certain cities they're so much more in your face and unafraid of people.
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Unread 07-27-2017, 05:59 AM
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You have livestock at the county park? At parks here all the animals are wild... when I go to cities I love seeing the pigeons. It's so fascinating how differently the wildlife behaves in different places. In certain cities they're so much more in your face and unafraid of people.
Yes, there's a sanctuary section in the county park, which is a great idea!
I too love pigeons because of their humility. I wonder if these commonalities are a Cap Moon thing. But perhaps we are derailing the thread now, so I will stop.
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