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  #51  
Unread 07-24-2017, 12:49 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Nobody has said what Taurean self-critical thoughts would be. Then again Taurus isn't really known for being critical.

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  #52  
Unread 07-24-2017, 12:53 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
I've always found that the quickest way to stop thoughts of self-criticism was to blame other people.
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.
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  #53  
Unread 07-24-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.
Why not just blame it on Saturn and be done with it? Works for me.
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  #54  
Unread 07-24-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.
This is naive. There are just people out there who aren't good people. Searching for an explanation why works in books but will just drive you crazy in real life. And it is better to know that this is a possibility than to not know this.
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Unread 07-24-2017, 03:07 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
Nobody has said what Taurean self-critical thoughts would be. Then again Taurus isn't really known for being critical.
I have Taurus rising. But Jupiter is conjunct my Ascendant pretty tightly.

I am probably not self critical often enough...

When I am mad at myself, it is usually for procrastinating, or being too self indulgent...
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Unread 07-24-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
This is naive. There are just people out there who aren't good people. Searching for an explanation why works in books but will just drive you crazy in real life. And it is better to know that this is a possibility than to not know this.
I actually do blame the behavior of "bad people" on weaknesses caused by their Natal-charts, combined with an unfortunate upbringing, and a difficult environment. They're compensating for their own weakness by attempting to control, manipulate, and even dominate others. While not ultimately blaming them, we still have to deal with their bad behavior as humanely as possible. That includes our own bad behavior as well, should we fall prey to weakness. Forgiving "those who trespass against us" includes ourselves.
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  #57  
Unread 07-24-2017, 05:38 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.
My sense is that graay ghost is talking about a shift from chronic self blame to recognizing when it really is not your fault. I, too, initially interpreted "blame other people" as the opposite problem from chronic self blame--never taking responsibility for anything and always coming up a reason to blame someone else, however ludicrous, a la Mr. Tweeter-in-Chief whose name rhymes with Ronald Grump. But for someone who tends to self blame all the time, realizing that other people actually are to blame in certain situations is freeing. I think that's what GG is saying here.
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  #58  
Unread 07-24-2017, 05:43 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
That comes closer to the way the Asc. works- that is how you might bring across and come across with whatever you are feeling towards yourself or your surroundings. The real inadequacies that might lead to self-criticism usually come from Saturn. It might be worth testing this by simply looking at the where and how Saturn is placed in one's chart. In my case, mine is in the 11th house and Despite my gregarious Aquarian self, I do sort of feel left out (Saturn) of a group (11th house), especially if the group is around my age (Saturn is older...). Almost all of my friendships are with people that are at least 5 years and older than I am, or where I am five years and older than the other party.
If it were all about Saturn, my sense of inadequacy should be turning up most in partnership situations (Saturn in the seventh house). But it doesn't. I don't tend to have much older or much younger partners, either, at least not romantically. Older and younger friends, yes, as well as friends around my age, but I don't have Saturn in the eleventh!
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  #59  
Unread 07-24-2017, 05:46 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I actually do blame the behavior of "bad people" on weaknesses caused by their Natal-charts, combined with an unfortunate upbringing, and a difficult environment. They're compensating for their own weakness by attempting to control, manipulate, and even dominate others. While not ultimately blaming them, we still have to deal with their bad behavior as humanely as possible. That includes our own bad behavior as well, should we fall prey to weakness. Forgiving "those who trespass against us" includes ourselves.
But, if said people have been making you blame yourself for everything, the first step is to liberate yourself from the self blame by putting it back where it belongs. That doesn't mean you have to then spend your life pursuing revenge against the "bad people." It might be healthier to have nothing at all to do with them, just go off and live your life, but that in itself is forgiving, as long as you don't spend your life obsessing over them and what they did.
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  #60  
Unread 07-24-2017, 06:39 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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My theory is that when people think bad thoughts about themselves, the kind of self hating thoughts they have is related to their rising sign. I've noticed from reading charts on these forums that people with Leo rising seem to be especially concerned with how they appear to others, looks, and/or people liking them. If a Leo rising person gets down on him/herself, they're likely to say something like, "I'm ugly!" or, "Nobody likes me!"
As this is a topic I happen to be very familiar with and as you picked an example that actually fits me (no Leo rising to be found though) it has me quite interested.

Saturn is an obvious candidate in that if powerfully placed it can feed its owner thoughts and impressions that are always negative but seem to come off as very real so the person confuses them with reality. It also tends to coincide with an early environment that lacks any positive reinforcement so there is plenty of room for the early negative thoughts and communications to take root.

Chiron was already mentioned but it does cause significant problems if placed in the Sun's house or aspecting the Sun. The aspects to the Moon are just as problematic and to a lesser extent those to the remaining personal planets can cause problems too.

Uranus in hard aspect to any of the receptive planets such as Moon, Mercury, Venus will effectively "electrocute" that planet so its expression becomes erratic and no longer works properly. Most people cannot handle this positively.

A more general way to look at other problem placements would be to see incompatible elements (pairs of) being emphasized in a chart. The most common example given is Jupiter hard aspect to Saturn where there is an above incidence of bipolar symptoms and other problems regarding to self-perception. But even a chart that has both (for example) Fire and Earth emphasized is likely to coincide with a personality which is both grounded in practical affairs and aspiring to some high ideals - it is not possible to effectively marry the two together and the result is often criticism toward self as one group of planets shuts the other out giving the personality a sense that is lacking a quality it would very much like to develop.

Might have condensed this last part a bit too much but apparently this does happen fairly often and can cause some of the issues discussed even when there are no apparent problematic aspects between the planets.

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
But, if said people have been making you blame yourself for everything, the first step is to liberate yourself from the self blame by putting it back where it belongs. That doesn't mean you have to then spend your life pursuing revenge against the "bad people." It might be healthier to have nothing at all to do with them, just go off and live your life, but that in itself is forgiving, as long as you don't spend your life obsessing over them and what they did.
That is good advice, thank you for posting it.
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  #61  
Unread 07-24-2017, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
If it were all about Saturn, my sense of inadequacy should be turning up most in partnership situations (Saturn in the seventh house). But it doesn't. I don't tend to have much older or much younger partners, either, at least not romantically. Older and younger friends, yes, as well as friends around my age, but I don't have Saturn in the eleventh!
Perhaps not older or younger partners, but any highly-troubled relationships? Does the partner have a burdened life? If you want to share your chart, one could understand it better. Saturn has to play a role in a house!
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  #62  
Unread 07-24-2017, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I have Taurus rising. But Jupiter is conjunct my Ascendant pretty tightly:
So, how does a Venus ruled Asc with Jup on it pan out? Are you large-statured? Very jovial? Or both?
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  #63  
Unread 07-24-2017, 10:32 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

I have always been jovial and generous, and pretty welcoming. I have been told I am a great hostess as I used to live throwing parties.

I used to be in great shape. I had a very nice figure, until after menopause. Since then, Jupiter has kind of taken over...
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  #64  
Unread 07-24-2017, 10:54 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
This is naive. There are just people out there who aren't good people. Searching for an explanation why works in books but will just drive you crazy in real life. And it is better to know that this is a possibility than to not know this.
Your thinking appears bit muddled. As in:
Searching for an explanation why works in books but will just drive you crazy in real life.

Not sure what you are saying here, as I make no reference to searching for explanations in books. What I speak of won't drive you crazy.
I'm just saying that shifting blame around from you to others doesn't do much good for anyone. Just heightens animosity. Makes everybody more tense. If that is your preference, that is okay with me.

Wishing you the best, truly.
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  #65  
Unread 07-24-2017, 10:57 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
My sense is that graay ghost is talking about a shift from chronic self blame to recognizing when it really is not your fault. I, too, initially interpreted "blame other people" as the opposite problem from chronic self blame--never taking responsibility for anything and always coming up a reason to blame someone else, however ludicrous, a la Mr. Tweeter-in-Chief whose name rhymes with Ronald Grump. But for someone who tends to self blame all the time, realizing that other people actually are to blame in certain situations is freeing. I think that's what GG is saying here.
Well, I sincerely appreciate your comments here. Thank you and I get what you saying. I think my comment about being with blaming energy in general is the next step after recognizing the one is not always the wrong one.
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  #66  
Unread 07-25-2017, 01:19 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Hmmm... I don't have any of those myself except a wide orbed Pluto square to the AC. If being hard on yourself required those aspects, I would hardly ever have been hard on myself in my life.

Isn't being hard on ourselves a universal thing? People may vary in how hard they are on themselves, how often, and in what way, but is there really anyone who never thinks ill of him/herself?
Osamenor, I recall you not wanting to personalize this thread, but without seeing a chart, it's hard to say what's going on.

I don't think most people would describe their thoughts as "self-loathing" or self-hatred. That is, if we mean the same things by "self" and "loathing."

As we know, if we start a thread, it can take off in directions different than the one we meant, as each person personalizes it to a greater or lesser degree. Then on a public thread perhaps a tangential post actually helps somebody else.

No astrological signature works 100% of the time, probably because of synergistic effects involving other parts of the chart.

In my experience, people with sextiles or trines to the sun tend to have more self-confidence, esp. between the sun and moon. Religion can be another way for people to beat themselves up, but sometimes one meets people for whom their belief in a personal relationship with God (or Jesus, or their particular faith) seems to buoy them up.

I wonder if the nagging voice in the head isn't principally one's parent/s, such that the child internalized it.

Also, any negative loop in one's brain can have a pay-off. Something sufficiently beneficial that we decide to keep it going, even if it makes us miserable. Maybe it's clinging to one's high standards, or some past injustices. For example, perhaps I don't live up to my high standards, but by gum, I still have them.

I had very poor self-esteem when I was young, but I seem to feel more confident as I age. Maybe due to life experience that was a whole lot more difficult than where I am in my life now. So these things can improve over time. Saturn, who rules old age, is my greatest teacher.
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  #67  
Unread 07-25-2017, 01:55 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Perhaps not older or younger partners, but any highly-troubled relationships? Does the partner have a burdened life?
Partner with a burdened life: check. I don't think I've ever dated anyone who didn't have some kind of major burden in their life. I think all of my relationships have involved a mutual need for plenty of nurturing, and the people I've drawn in have been ones who both needed it and gave it (sometimes more one than the other, and which one was more has gone both ways). Seventh house Cancer Saturn, much?
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Unread 07-25-2017, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Osamenor, I recall you not wanting to personalize this thread, but without seeing a chart, it's hard to say what's going on.

I don't think most people would describe their thoughts as "self-loathing" or self-hatred. That is, if we mean the same things by "self" and "loathing."

As we know, if we start a thread, it can take off in directions different than the one we meant, as each person personalizes it to a greater or lesser degree. Then on a public thread perhaps a tangential post actually helps somebody else.

No astrological signature works 100% of the time, probably because of synergistic effects involving other parts of the chart.

In my experience, people with sextiles or trines to the sun tend to have more self-confidence, esp. between the sun and moon. Religion can be another way for people to beat themselves up, but sometimes one meets people for whom their belief in a personal relationship with God (or Jesus, or their particular faith) seems to buoy them up.

I wonder if the nagging voice in the head isn't principally one's parent/s, such that the child internalized it.

Also, any negative loop in one's brain can have a pay-off. Something sufficiently beneficial that we decide to keep it going, even if it makes us miserable. Maybe it's clinging to one's high standards, or some past injustices. For example, perhaps I don't live up to my high standards, but by gum, I still have them.

I had very poor self-esteem when I was young, but I seem to feel more confident as I age. Maybe due to life experience that was a whole lot more difficult than where I am in my life now. So these things can improve over time. Saturn, who rules old age, is my greatest teacher.
Low self-esteem in a young person would seem to fall into these categories in the American culture--
I'm not:
smart enough
athletic enough
(For a girl) graceful and/or good looking enough
(For a boy) tough and/or brave enough
healthy enough
able to speak well enough

Overcoming low self-esteem would involve improvements, whether they occur naturally, or are the result of deliberate self-improvement. Or, maybe just getting away from bullies and brow-beaters who insist on putting you down. Some Charts would be more susceptible to "buying in" to the demeaning labels. Seems like we're back to the strong 1st House overcoming them.

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  #69  
Unread 07-25-2017, 04:26 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Osamenor, I recall you not wanting to personalize this thread, but without seeing a chart, it's hard to say what's going on.

I don't think most people would describe their thoughts as "self-loathing" or self-hatred. That is, if we mean the same things by "self" and "loathing."
When I made that first post, I was thinking of people getting down on themselves, although it morphed into thinking of outright self hatred. There are many levels of being down on yourself, from simple self criticism to outright self loathing. I suppose we could be talking about all of them.

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
No astrological signature works 100% of the time, probably because of synergistic effects involving other parts of the chart.
True. And while I don't have most of the aspects you mentioned, I do have several of the chart factors that jkxx74 posted about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkxx74 View Post
Chiron was already mentioned but it does cause significant problems if placed in the Sun's house or aspecting the Sun. The aspects to the Moon are just as problematic and to a lesser extent those to the remaining personal planets can cause problems too....

A more general way to look at other problem placements would be to see incompatible elements (pairs of) being emphasized in a chart. The most common example given is Jupiter hard aspect to Saturn where there is an above incidence of bipolar symptoms and other problems regarding to self-perception. But even a chart that has both (for example) Fire and Earth emphasized is likely to coincide with a personality which is both grounded in practical affairs and aspiring to some high ideals - it is not possible to effectively marry the two together and the result is often criticism toward self as one group of planets shuts the other out giving the personality a sense that is lacking a quality it would very much like to develop.
Chiron may be part of the grand trine I have that includes Sun, Moon, and Jupiter, depending on how wide you cast the orbs. Pretty much every version I've seen of my chart considers it conjunct my Jupiter and IC. Chiron, check.

Jupiter and Saturn in hard aspect (a square for me), check.

Fire and earth both emphasized, also check.

And yet, I've also got trines to my sun, and a sextile if you count a 7 degree orb one with Uranus.

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In my experience, people with sextiles or trines to the sun tend to have more self-confidence, esp. between the sun and moon.
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Unread 07-25-2017, 04:32 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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As this is a topic I happen to be very familiar with and as you picked an example that actually fits me (no Leo rising to be found though) it has me quite interested.
Do you mean the example of thinking "I'm ugly" or "Nobody likes me" when you're down on yourself? Or did you mean something else I said actually fit you?

What chart factors, if any, do you think might be involved in you thinking that way, if you meant what I thought you did?
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Unread 07-25-2017, 11:46 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

There are a lot of things about ourselves that we can't really fix. We tend to think we have a lot more control over our lives than we really do. That's part of the problem.
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Unread 07-25-2017, 10:32 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Chiron may be part of the grand trine I have that includes Sun, Moon, and Jupiter, depending on how wide you cast the orbs. Pretty much every version I've seen of my chart considers it conjunct my Jupiter and IC. Chiron, check.
If Chiron is conjunct Jupiter that is a rather good aspect to have for it as are the trines to the remaining planets - this would translate into being able to handle Chiron philosophically and find the way it manifests meaningful, perhaps with a desire to teach others what you have learned through Chironic experiences. Chiron trine Sun would be translated as a talent for helping other people "unfold" in terms of their core personality which is quite valuable. It brings me back to wondering about Chiron's supposed lesson for oneself, as it first and foremost tends to express itself around others and not self. Chiron-IC would seem to indicate the importance of resolving Chiron themes from the past as a better way of handling the future, although it can have other intepretations as H4-H10 are the two parent houses.

Since you have the Fire and Earth combo, this was described as each presenting a threat to the other element - Fire needs broad horizons to spread its wings while Earth needs a concrete sense of security and the two clash, at least at first. The Jupiter-Saturn square is illustrative of the same process due to the elements associated with the two planets.


Quote:
Do you mean the example of thinking "I'm ugly" or "Nobody likes me" when you're down on yourself? Or did you mean something else I said actually fit you?

What chart factors, if any, do you think might be involved in you thinking that way, if you meant what I thought you did?
Both of these and they fit quite literally. At first glance it's the 5 planets in Saturn's sign combined with Saturn placed in its own house in Scorpio and exactly opposing the North Node - combined with Venus square Uranus with a 0 degree orb and adding the 5H Chiron into the picture. Although I have read having "connection" planets in the 12th adds to this as well as the 12th does not allow an easy exchange with the outside world. Sun square Pluto is mentioned as adding to this as well and some of the interpretations fit here as well. One other factor would be the way planets are lined up in the chart so the outer planets are all placed behind the personal ones such that they will all conjunct the personal planets, some of them pretty early on.


Quote:
There are a lot of things about ourselves that we can't really fix. We tend to think we have a lot more control over our lives than we really do. That's part of the problem.
This is true for sure but it is also one of Saturn's tricks - making one believe a situation is set in stone and only one outcome is likely or possible. Or take Pluto's version where there are only two outcomes - a great and an awful one and it just makes sense to pick one and run with it.
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Unread 07-25-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
There are a lot of things about ourselves that we can't really fix. We tend to think we have a lot more control over our lives than we really do. That's part of the problem.
Who or what sets the standards?
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Unread 07-25-2017, 10:51 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

interesting insights on Chiron-Jupiter.

To me this planetary combo can have two modes:

1. The world of hurt. Chiron blights Jupiter's normal faith and optimism

2. Both Chiron and Jupiter deal with wisdom. Chiron's wisdom comes from those wounds that don't heal; but that if accepted, lead to wisdom and compassion. Jupiter's wisdom is more straight-up; but then Jupiter in a hard aspect will feel evolutionary pressures from the other planet.

Ditto with Saturn-Jupiter.

1. Saturn rains on Jupiter's parade.

2. key words: "disciplined wisdom" or "mature wisdom."

We have some choice about whether we pursue 1 or 2.
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Unread 07-25-2017, 11:15 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkxx74 View Post
If Chiron is conjunct Jupiter that is a rather good aspect to have for it as are the trines to the remaining planets - this would translate into being able to handle Chiron philosophically and find the way it manifests meaningful, perhaps with a desire to teach others what you have learned through Chironic experiences. Chiron trine Sun would be translated as a talent for helping other people "unfold" in terms of their core personality which is quite valuable. It brings me back to wondering about Chiron's supposed lesson for oneself, as it first and foremost tends to express itself around others and not self. Chiron-IC would seem to indicate the importance of resolving Chiron themes from the past as a better way of handling the future, although it can have other intepretations as H4-H10 are the two parent houses.

Since you have the Fire and Earth combo, this was described as each presenting a threat to the other element - Fire needs broad horizons to spread its wings while Earth needs a concrete sense of security and the two clash, at least at first. The Jupiter-Saturn square is illustrative of the same process due to the elements associated with the two planets.
Interesting!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jkxx74 View Post
Both of these and they fit quite literally. At first glance it's the 5 planets in Saturn's sign combined with Saturn placed in its own house in Scorpio and exactly opposing the North Node - combined with Venus square Uranus with a 0 degree orb and adding the 5H Chiron into the picture. Although I have read having "connection" planets in the 12th adds to this as well as the 12th does not allow an easy exchange with the outside world. Sun square Pluto is mentioned as adding to this as well and some of the interpretations fit here as well. One other factor would be the way planets are lined up in the chart so the outer planets are all placed behind the personal ones such that they will all conjunct the personal planets, some of them pretty early on.
I see how those might be related to self esteem issues. But what, do you think, leads you to make those issues about your looks or people (not) liking you, rather than about your abilities or competence?
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