Self hating thoughts rising

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

BTW, Saturn is apt to show where and how we feel inadequate and not good-enough. I have Saturn in Virgo, who is known as the worst kind of nit-picking critic. However, we are generally the targets of our criticism prior to turning to anybody else. I have Virgo rising, generally in the 12th; but in the first in whole signs houses.
I concur with the Saturn theory - and also that that is where we are more prone to self-criticism (self-loathing seems harsh) and feeling inadequate or not good enough. I also think that the house Saturn is in shows the area of life where one might feel inadequate. I don't think it has much to do with the Rising. Whilst Leo Risings might desire to look good in order to get attention and admiration, they might not necessarily take to self-loathing just because they feel they don't look good enough.

...I didn't start this thread to seek advice on how to deal with self hating thoughts. I didn't even start it to talk about me. Rather, I'm looking to explore how self hating thoughts (we all have them at times) relate to our birth chart...
I think it is important to be open to ideas that encompass the main theme, as everyone has different thoughts/ interps and style of presentation about the -same- theme. We are here to discuss and discussions can include more than a straight-line approach to the theme.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Hi,


I concur with the Saturn theory - and also that that is where we are more prone to self-criticism (self-loathing seems harsh) and feeling inadequate or not good enough. I also think that the house Saturn is in shows the area of life where one might feel inadequate. I don't think it has much to do with the Rising. Whilst Leo Risings might desire to look good in order to get attention and admiration, they might not necessarily take to self-loathing just because they feel they don't look good enough.
Fair enough. I think, though, that rising sign may play a part in how your self loathing thoughts manifest. If you're feeling self hatred, the reason why you say you hate yourself might not be the real reason why you're feeling self hatred, just the story you tell to explain to yourself why you feel that way. I've noticed that when I pay attention and parse apart my feelings: if I'm feeling down, I can usually come up with a reason why, but if I pay attention, I realize that the feeling came before I thought up the "reason."

I think it is important to be open to ideas that encompass the main theme, as everyone has different thoughts/ interps and style of presentation about the -same- theme. We are here to discuss and discussions can include more than a straight-line approach to the theme.
I never said I wasn't open to that. What you're quoting me on was what I said to waybread when she seemed to be giving me advice that I wasn't seeking.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Osamenor, I get that you asked your question in a general way, but when we're hard on ourselves, it gets very, very personal. A couple of signatures that can do this:

1. Saturn, Pluto, or Neptune opposite or square one's ascendant, sun, or moon.

2. Saturn conjunct one's personal point/s.

3. natal Mars retrograde.

4. Chiron conjunct, opposite, or square one's sun.

Hmmm... I don't have any of those myself except a wide orbed Pluto square to the AC. If being hard on yourself required those aspects, I would hardly ever have been hard on myself in my life.

Isn't being hard on ourselves a universal thing? People may vary in how hard they are on themselves, how often, and in what way, but is there really anyone who never thinks ill of him/herself?
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
:lol::lol::lol:

Or blame your birth chart?

"It's not my fault, I have a terrible chart!"

(Said entirely tongue in cheek.)

It sounds stupid but it's actually true. We live in a society where certain people are encouraged to be infinitely self-effacing and self-blaming, that everything that happens to them is their fault when that's just plain not true. It was the first thing I noticed when I started taking antidepressants -- I stopped blaming myself so much and started to realize that hey, actually, other people are just pricks sometimes. There are so many people who are just plain rude in the world and either don't know or don't care what their affect on other people are even if a simple statement of theirs or a rude honk from a car will ruin someone's entire day. You cannot be so perfectly nice, amenable, and persuasive to make everybody be kind to you all the time. It's just impossible and you might make yourself worse off if you try.

"It's not your fault, people are just pricks sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it" was actually a deep, startling revelation to me. I highly recommend it to others.
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Osamenor

Staff member
It sounds stupid but it's actually true. We live in a society where certain people are encouraged to be infinitely self-effacing and self-blaming, that everything that happens to them is their fault when that's just plain not true. It was the first thing I noticed when I started taking antidepressants -- I stopped blaming myself so much and started to realize that hey, actually, other people are just pricks sometimes. There are so many people who are just plain rude in the world and either don't know or don't care what their affect on other people are even if a simple statement of theirs or a rude honk from a car will ruin someone's entire day. You cannot be so perfectly nice, amenable, and persuasive to make everybody be kind to you all the time. It's just impossible and you might make yourself worse off if you try.

"It's not your fault, people are just pricks sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it" was actually a deep, startling revelation to me. I highly recommend it to others.
Save

Now that you spelled out what you meant to say, I completely agree. My first reaction to "blame other people" was to think of situations where it's not really their fault either, but sure, there are plenty of situations where someone really is a jerk and it's not your fault, certainly nothing to hate yourself over.
 

sibylline

Well-known member
My theory is that when people think bad thoughts about themselves, the kind of self hating thoughts they have is related to their rising sign. I've noticed from reading charts on these forums that people with Leo rising seem to be especially concerned with how they appear to others, looks, and/or people liking them. If a Leo rising person gets down on him/herself, they're likely to say something like, "I'm ugly!" or, "Nobody likes me!"

No, because Leo Rising never has negative thoughts about self. We're too amazing. :innocent:

Seriously, generally I'm more on the optimistic side so my negative thoughts are usually caused by something in particular. If so, the nature of the thoughts will be related to that. So if I made an error at work I might think "I'm incompetent" but if I'm treated poorly by someone close to me I might think, "Why don't you love me??"

With Leo on the rise there is also the Sun sign to consider, so a Cap Sun could want to be recognized for their competence as well as a Cap Rising.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Fair enough. I think, though, that rising sign may play a part in how your self loathing thoughts manifest. If you're feeling self hatred, the reason why you say you hate yourself might not be the real reason why you're feeling self hatred, just the story you tell to explain to yourself why you feel that way...
That comes closer to the way the Asc. works- that is how you might bring across and come across with whatever you are feeling towards yourself or your surroundings. The real inadequacies that might lead to self-criticism usually come from Saturn. It might be worth testing this by simply looking at the where and how Saturn is placed in one's chart. In my case, mine is in the 11th house and Despite my gregarious Aquarian self, I do sort of feel left out (Saturn) of a group (11th house), especially if the group is around my age (Saturn is older...). Almost all of my friendships are with people that are at least 5 years and older than I am, or where I am five years and older than the other party.

I never said I wasn't open to that. What you're quoting me on was what I said to waybread when she seemed to be giving me advice that I wasn't seeking.
Correct, you never literally said that you "weren't open to that", just that you that (what Way said) wasn't the advice you were seeking, and it was there twice. Just trying to point out that as a third person, it does come across as dejection (Saturn). And the poster wasn't deviating from the subject completely, it was just a different angle they were looking from at your post. People interpret the same thing differently, and then put in their time and effort to share their thoughts.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
No, because Leo Rising never has negative thoughts about self. We're too amazing. :innocent:

Seriously, generally I'm more on the optimistic side so my negative thoughts are usually caused by something in particular. If so, the nature of the thoughts will be related to that.
Precisely, Leo rising (moi aussi), me too, is as optimistic as they come. My self-criticism comes from a Cap Moon, and I suspect that Osamenor's too comes from their Cap energy, and, if there should be anything in Virgo.
 
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IleneK

Premium Member
I've always found that the quickest way to stop thoughts of self-criticism was to blame other people.

Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.

Why not just blame it on Saturn and be done with it? Works for me. :lol:
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.

This is naive. There are just people out there who aren't good people. Searching for an explanation why works in books but will just drive you crazy in real life. And it is better to know that this is a possibility than to not know this.
 

katydid

Well-known member
Nobody has said what Taurean self-critical thoughts would be. Then again Taurus isn't really known for being critical.

I have Taurus rising. But Jupiter is conjunct my Ascendant pretty tightly.

I am probably not self critical often enough...:innocent:

When I am mad at myself, it is usually for procrastinating, or being too self indulgent...:annoyed:
 

david starling

Well-known member
This is naive. There are just people out there who aren't good people. Searching for an explanation why works in books but will just drive you crazy in real life. And it is better to know that this is a possibility than to not know this.

I actually do blame the behavior of "bad people" on weaknesses caused by their Natal-charts, combined with an unfortunate upbringing, and a difficult environment. They're compensating for their own weakness by attempting to control, manipulate, and even dominate others. While not ultimately blaming them, we still have to deal with their bad behavior as humanely as possible. That includes our own bad behavior as well, should we fall prey to weakness. Forgiving "those who trespass against us" includes ourselves.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Only problem with this method is that the driving negative energy is not transformed. It is only shifted from thinking about one point [yourself] to another point [someone else]. You can test this yourself by checking out how the energy feels when you shift blame from yourself to someone else. Does it really make you feel better in a true sense?

The idea is to look at and be with the negative energy that arises in all of us ans that is driving the thoughts. Not get rid of it, but become acquainted with it. Get to know it. Make choices about how you respond to it and what you think about it. Compare how that feels to merely shifting the blame.

Try it and see what you think about it.
My sense is that graay ghost is talking about a shift from chronic self blame to recognizing when it really is not your fault. I, too, initially interpreted "blame other people" as the opposite problem from chronic self blame--never taking responsibility for anything and always coming up a reason to blame someone else, however ludicrous, a la Mr. Tweeter-in-Chief whose name rhymes with Ronald Grump. But for someone who tends to self blame all the time, realizing that other people actually are to blame in certain situations is freeing. I think that's what GG is saying here.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
That comes closer to the way the Asc. works- that is how you might bring across and come across with whatever you are feeling towards yourself or your surroundings. The real inadequacies that might lead to self-criticism usually come from Saturn. It might be worth testing this by simply looking at the where and how Saturn is placed in one's chart. In my case, mine is in the 11th house and Despite my gregarious Aquarian self, I do sort of feel left out (Saturn) of a group (11th house), especially if the group is around my age (Saturn is older...). Almost all of my friendships are with people that are at least 5 years and older than I am, or where I am five years and older than the other party.

If it were all about Saturn, my sense of inadequacy should be turning up most in partnership situations (Saturn in the seventh house). But it doesn't. I don't tend to have much older or much younger partners, either, at least not romantically. Older and younger friends, yes, as well as friends around my age, but I don't have Saturn in the eleventh!
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I actually do blame the behavior of "bad people" on weaknesses caused by their Natal-charts, combined with an unfortunate upbringing, and a difficult environment. They're compensating for their own weakness by attempting to control, manipulate, and even dominate others. While not ultimately blaming them, we still have to deal with their bad behavior as humanely as possible. That includes our own bad behavior as well, should we fall prey to weakness. Forgiving "those who trespass against us" includes ourselves.
But, if said people have been making you blame yourself for everything, the first step is to liberate yourself from the self blame by putting it back where it belongs. That doesn't mean you have to then spend your life pursuing revenge against the "bad people." It might be healthier to have nothing at all to do with them, just go off and live your life, but that in itself is forgiving, as long as you don't spend your life obsessing over them and what they did.
 

jkxx74

Premium Member
My theory is that when people think bad thoughts about themselves, the kind of self hating thoughts they have is related to their rising sign. I've noticed from reading charts on these forums that people with Leo rising seem to be especially concerned with how they appear to others, looks, and/or people liking them. If a Leo rising person gets down on him/herself, they're likely to say something like, "I'm ugly!" or, "Nobody likes me!"
As this is a topic I happen to be very familiar with and as you picked an example that actually fits me (no Leo rising to be found though) it has me quite interested.

Saturn is an obvious candidate in that if powerfully placed it can feed its owner thoughts and impressions that are always negative but seem to come off as very real so the person confuses them with reality. It also tends to coincide with an early environment that lacks any positive reinforcement so there is plenty of room for the early negative thoughts and communications to take root.

Chiron was already mentioned but it does cause significant problems if placed in the Sun's house or aspecting the Sun. The aspects to the Moon are just as problematic and to a lesser extent those to the remaining personal planets can cause problems too.

Uranus in hard aspect to any of the receptive planets such as Moon, Mercury, Venus will effectively "electrocute" that planet so its expression becomes erratic and no longer works properly. Most people cannot handle this positively.

A more general way to look at other problem placements would be to see incompatible elements (pairs of) being emphasized in a chart. The most common example given is Jupiter hard aspect to Saturn where there is an above incidence of bipolar symptoms and other problems regarding to self-perception. But even a chart that has both (for example) Fire and Earth emphasized is likely to coincide with a personality which is both grounded in practical affairs and aspiring to some high ideals - it is not possible to effectively marry the two together and the result is often criticism toward self as one group of planets shuts the other out giving the personality a sense that is lacking a quality it would very much like to develop.

Might have condensed this last part a bit too much but apparently this does happen fairly often and can cause some of the issues discussed even when there are no apparent problematic aspects between the planets.

But, if said people have been making you blame yourself for everything, the first step is to liberate yourself from the self blame by putting it back where it belongs. That doesn't mean you have to then spend your life pursuing revenge against the "bad people." It might be healthier to have nothing at all to do with them, just go off and live your life, but that in itself is forgiving, as long as you don't spend your life obsessing over them and what they did.

That is good advice, thank you for posting it.
 
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