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  #26  
Unread 07-22-2017, 04:51 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
Not really sure what you are saying here.
Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the planet of emotions and inner self, and the feminine goddess energy. .

The Sun is the ego and the outer self, the masculine force.

So it makes sense that the Sun, ruler of Fixed Fire, would be out of place in Cancer, of the Cardinal Water element.

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  #27  
Unread 07-22-2017, 04:53 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I can kind of see this... I don't think it holds any truth though.

When I'm in a self-deprecating mood, I always attack my intelligence or having to rely on others.

If what you said was true, I would have to have a Virgo or Aries Rising. But I'm a cap rising.
That actually sounds very Capricorn to me. Capricorn needs to achieve, be competent, and do it by and for him/herself--at least, archetypal Capricorn does. I can see attacking yourself for having to rely on others being a Capricorn rising thing. It's not something I tend to do, but my chart overall shows a lot of need for cooperation and collaboration (as I've learned from having it professionally analyzed, and studying it myself). I know I've seen yours, but I don't recall if it's as strongly so.

I don't attack my intelligence either because that thought was never planted for me at all. I have the opposite problem: I've always, always, always been told, "You're so smart! You're so intelligent!" to the point that people will use my perceived intelligence to deprecate their own, or think I can do anything and everything just because I'm "so smart," or both. But ability to do things... big time. All my life, I was told I could do things that I really couldn't. As an adult, I had hidden disabilities finally diagnosed, but they still get discounted most of the time.

So life experience does provide the self hatred, but that still leaves a question in my mind as to why I never made it about my looks or, much, about people not liking me, when many people make their self hating thoughts about those things. I've had as many opportunities as every woman in our society to be put down over looks, and I've dealt with not being liked (also a major experience growing up), but that's not what comes up when I have self hating thoughts. It's all about doing, not being or appearing, and not much about being liked or having a relationship, either.
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  #28  
Unread 07-22-2017, 04:58 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
How effective is a Leo Sun in expressing Capricorn Ascendant energy? Seems like it's too fixed and fiery, too generous and out-front, to be fully effective.
I think it's the other way around: the ascendant has to express the Sun's energy to others (as well as everything else in the birth chart. A Leo sun coming through a Capricorn ascendant gets... I think of it as darker. More Capricorn-serious, less Leo-playful. And Capricorn rising makes Leo the eighth sign, which, more often than not, puts a Leo sun in the eighth house. Scorpionic right there.
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  #29  
Unread 07-22-2017, 05:05 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I think Venus would be a better indicator regarding negative thoughts on self-esteem.

Venus is our self-esteem, is it not?

Because we get our self-esteem from other people, and Venus has a lot to do with our relationships and love.

Self-esteem kind of doesn't exist if there's no one else is around to criticize or love it.
Venus may be one indicator, but it's more generally about how we relate: to others and to ourselves. My thought is that Venus is more closely linked to sense of self if it's combust, or at least in the same sign as the sun, than if it's not. If Venus is right there with the sun, it's an inextricable part of core self. If Venus is further away from the sun, and especially if it's in a different sign, relationship is more distinct from core self.

Perhaps that's one reason why my self-sensitivity has more to do with what I do than who I am or how I look. I'm a Leo sun and Virgo Venus.
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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
But the Ascendant is the window or the lens, through which everything else is funneled.

Venus is a part of self esteem, I agree. But the Ascendant is kind of a combination of all of the planetary placements as they are combined into the persona or temperament.


Ebertin says:

Asc: The Personality
The EGO in relationship with other people, especially within the environment.
This.
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  #30  
Unread 07-22-2017, 05:16 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
I don't know if you remember, but I have 7 planets involved in oppositions in my chart...
I remember that you have a grand cross and a see-saw chart pattern. Makes sense that all those hard aspects might play a part in self esteem issues. Which is a whole other subject....

Quote:
Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
It is generally anything and everything. If it means anything I guess probably it all boils down to "I should know better."
Is the "know better" perhaps an earth thing? I'm seeing a running theme between you, me, and AppLeo: "I should know better," "I'm incompetent/can't do anything right," and self attacks over intelligence. All of us have earth sign ascendants, and all of us have at least one significant Capricorn placement (but not the sun): you have your moon there while AppLeo and I are Capricorn rising.
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  #31  
Unread 07-22-2017, 05:25 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
As a Virgo rising (), I believe there to be (Sun in 9th ) a very big difference between feelings (Moon in Capricorn) regarding self-criticism, self-loathing and self-hate. Virgo rising criticism says something about what one consciously sees as a personal imperfection (don't I know it???). Yet it is something that a person can correct if and when they are willing to do so.

Self-loathing and self hate would seem to go much deeper, often as a result of feelings aroused (planted within) by others. Wouldn't self hate and loathing arise through a comparison with that which to the individual is seemingly not so in themselves?
I agree. I know that the self hating thoughts I get are not about anything I can correct, or at least not about anything I think I can correct. It's not a logical thought at all--I know full well that "I can't do anything right" isn't literally true, and when I think that, I don't mean it's literally true. That thought is an expression of emotion. And it used to be much more constant than it is now. I've done some major work around it, so now it's not a constant companion, just something that pops up occasionally, usually when I'm feeling very frustrated.

But, if it were a logical thought, then, logically, if I can't do anything right, there's nothing I can do about that. It's not a correctable defect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
The content and reason for such deep emotions would make me personally look towards a strong Scorpio connection, and the positions and aspects made by its rulerS.
Do you mean, you would look at Pluto and Mars for self hatred?

Most of us, probably all of us, experience self hatred at some time in our lives. But not everyone has any particular emphasis in Scorpio.
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  #32  
Unread 07-22-2017, 05:28 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
That actually sounds very Capricorn to me.
Oh, I guess it does doesn't it.
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  #33  
Unread 07-22-2017, 06:12 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Ummmm, ok.





Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the planet of emotions and inner self, and the feminine goddess energy. .

The Sun is the ego and the outer self, the masculine force.

So it makes sense that the Sun, ruler of Fixed Fire, would be out of place in Cancer, of the Cardinal Water element.
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  #34  
Unread 07-22-2017, 06:18 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
Ummmm, ok.

I don't really see where I am saying anything that unusual or out of bounds...why all the weird emojis?
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  #35  
Unread 07-22-2017, 06:21 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Is the "know better" perhaps an earth thing? I'm seeing a running theme between you, me, and AppLeo: "I should know better," "I'm incompetent/can't do anything right," and self attacks over intelligence. All of us have earth sign ascendants, and all of us have at least one significant Capricorn placement (but not the sun): you have your moon there while AppLeo and I are Capricorn rising.
I don't know. It's less that it's an attack over intelligence and more an attack that one is already the perfect, premonitive being and one merely does not behave that way. It is not just intelligence, it is also a matter of virtue, of sociability, of pretty much every single thing I have some modicum of control over.

And then there's the "I'm ugly everyone hates me I'm just a burden to the universe why was I even born."

I don't know. Maybe they're about equal.
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  #36  
Unread 07-22-2017, 06:23 PM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I think it's the other way around: the ascendant has to express the Sun's energy to others (as well as everything else in the birth chart. A Leo sun coming through a Capricorn ascendant gets... I think of it as darker. More Capricorn-serious, less Leo-playful. And Capricorn rising makes Leo the eighth sign, which, more often than not, puts a Leo sun in the eighth house. Scorpionic right there.
That makes sense. Isn't the 8th house the house of power? Capricorn and Leo are leader signs that both like being in control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
How effective is a Leo Sun in expressing Capricorn Ascendant energy? Seems like it's too fixed and fiery, too generous and out-front, to be fully effective.
LOL yeah it's definitely not the best combination...

I think it comes off as snobbery or being overly stuck-up without meaning to be.

Capricorn is naturally reserved, but doesn't show off so it doesn't matter. But with the Leo added is takes the reserved nature and then projects an aura of "I'm too good to be around you."

Or you could flip it and it would be. "I'm only acting cold and closed because of Saturn. I'm desperately waiting for someone to love and talk to me."

And on a superficial level, this combination enjoys the material pleasures of life a little too much. At least from my experience..

I find myself presenting a reserved and sarcastic demeanor, but once you like "crack through" to me my silly Leo side comes out. Or like I'll be really serious and focused looking and then someone will start talking to me and I'll start smiling for no reason. Cuz that Leo needs to get out.

It's kind of funny because people who really know me often see me smiling and then when they see me only being my Capricorn self they think I'm sad or that something is wrong.

Capricorn-Leo is the like the beautiful king that wears the heaviest, thickest, blackest armor that you can't even tell he's the king anymore.

Or its like a stone statue with little bolts of light shooting out of from different areas trying to get out.

Or it comes out like this: "Stop being worthless you peasants!" -says in a joyful manner-

17103482_1763181337331930_9049383755228830612_n.jpg
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  #37  
Unread 07-22-2017, 10:11 PM
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Smile Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Here's a joke from a cartoon strip from many years ago: " Your Majesty, the peasants are revolting!"(Peasants can be seen from the castle window, storming the walls with pitchforks and torches.) Undaunted, the King says, "I find them them revolting too, but nothing we can do about it."
Being in its own Sign, the Sun is going to shine through somehow, no matter what.
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  #38  
Unread 07-23-2017, 05:49 AM
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Smile Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the planet of emotions and inner self, and the feminine goddess energy. .

The Sun is the ego and the outer self, the masculine force.

So it makes sense that the Sun, ruler of Fixed Fire, would be out of place in Cancer, of the Cardinal Water element.
From my point of view, if for example, the Cancer Sun were Conjunct the Cancer Ascendant, it would be right where it belonged in order the express the Cancerian energy. Of course, it might have to get in touch with its feminine side.
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  #39  
Unread 07-24-2017, 01:11 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Osamenor, I get that you asked your question in a general way, but when we're hard on ourselves, it gets very, very personal. A couple of signatures that can do this:

1. Saturn, Pluto, or Neptune opposite or square one's ascendant, sun, or moon.

2. Saturn conjunct one's personal point/s.

3. natal Mars retrograde.

4. Chiron conjunct, opposite, or square one's sun.

I understand the meaning of "ego" but since it comes out of Freudian psychology, which has a whole lot wrong with it, I'm not so keen on using it unless someone generally gets into a competitive relationship with other people.

I'd rather think of the sun as one's identity or sense of self; and the ascendant has how we present ourselves to other people, whether consciously or unconsciously.

It is possible to stop self-critical thoughts, but it takes a conscious choice, effort, and practice. When you find your brain wandering down the path of self-criticism, just stop it and immediately switch to alternative thoughts-- like self-empowering affirmations-- at the ready. Your brain normally will follow accustomed synapses, but you can train it to pursue different pathways. This is hard to start with, but gets easier with practice.

Anything to stop the typical negative thought-flow is helpful. When you find the old self-critical thoughts emerging, say "Stop!!" Then do something else. Count to 10 backwards, hum a favourite tune, check a cell phone joke app. Whatever breaks up the mindset.

A sense of self-deprecating humour is a huge asset.

Sometimes a loathing thought can be turned into a little wry humour.

No signs are bigger stands for self improvement than Capricorn and Leo.

I believe in a choice-centered astrology. My horoscope looks like a train wreck, and I say it works.
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Last edited by waybread; 07-24-2017 at 01:14 AM.
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  #40  
Unread 07-24-2017, 01:21 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Just in terms of planets being in-place or out-of-place, modern psychological astrology pretty much eschews this concept. Planets behave differently in different signs. As a female sun-Aquarian and lunar Leo, I don't feel my identity or emotional nature to be particularly masculine.

There is some value in Jung's anima/animus talk, but I think it only takes women so far.

Traditional astrology goes a lot further with planets being in- or out-of-place with its essential and accidental dignities. The sun isn't necessarily weakened by being in Cancer, nor is the moon notably weakened by being in a "masculine" sign, just on their own.

In Hellenistic astrology, the moon as "goddess" (Selena/Artemis/Diana/Hekate) joys in the 3rd house, not in the 4th.

So there are many ways to slice and dice astrology. I think it just works better to choose empowering over disempowering interpretations.
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  #41  
Unread 07-24-2017, 01:24 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

I've always found that the quickest way to stop thoughts of self-criticism was to blame other people.
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  #42  
Unread 07-24-2017, 01:40 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
BTW, Saturn is apt to show where and how we feel inadequate and not good-enough. I have Saturn in Virgo, who is known as the worst kind of nit-picking critic. However, we are generally the targets of our criticism prior to turning to anybody else. I have Virgo rising, generally in the 12th; but in the first in whole signs houses.
I concur with the Saturn theory - and also that that is where we are more prone to self-criticism (self-loathing seems harsh) and feeling inadequate or not good enough. I also think that the house Saturn is in shows the area of life where one might feel inadequate. I don't think it has much to do with the Rising. Whilst Leo Risings might desire to look good in order to get attention and admiration, they might not necessarily take to self-loathing just because they feel they don't look good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
...I didn't start this thread to seek advice on how to deal with self hating thoughts. I didn't even start it to talk about me. Rather, I'm looking to explore how self hating thoughts (we all have them at times) relate to our birth chart...
I think it is important to be open to ideas that encompass the main theme, as everyone has different thoughts/ interps and style of presentation about the -same- theme. We are here to discuss and discussions can include more than a straight-line approach to the theme.
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  #43  
Unread 07-24-2017, 03:02 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Hi,


I concur with the Saturn theory - and also that that is where we are more prone to self-criticism (self-loathing seems harsh) and feeling inadequate or not good enough. I also think that the house Saturn is in shows the area of life where one might feel inadequate. I don't think it has much to do with the Rising. Whilst Leo Risings might desire to look good in order to get attention and admiration, they might not necessarily take to self-loathing just because they feel they don't look good enough.
Fair enough. I think, though, that rising sign may play a part in how your self loathing thoughts manifest. If you're feeling self hatred, the reason why you say you hate yourself might not be the real reason why you're feeling self hatred, just the story you tell to explain to yourself why you feel that way. I've noticed that when I pay attention and parse apart my feelings: if I'm feeling down, I can usually come up with a reason why, but if I pay attention, I realize that the feeling came before I thought up the "reason."

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
I think it is important to be open to ideas that encompass the main theme, as everyone has different thoughts/ interps and style of presentation about the -same- theme. We are here to discuss and discussions can include more than a straight-line approach to the theme.
I never said I wasn't open to that. What you're quoting me on was what I said to waybread when she seemed to be giving me advice that I wasn't seeking.
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Unread 07-24-2017, 03:16 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
I've always found that the quickest way to stop thoughts of self-criticism was to blame other people.


Or blame your birth chart?

"It's not my fault, I have a terrible chart!"

(Said entirely tongue in cheek.)
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Unread 07-24-2017, 03:21 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Osamenor, I get that you asked your question in a general way, but when we're hard on ourselves, it gets very, very personal. A couple of signatures that can do this:

1. Saturn, Pluto, or Neptune opposite or square one's ascendant, sun, or moon.

2. Saturn conjunct one's personal point/s.

3. natal Mars retrograde.

4. Chiron conjunct, opposite, or square one's sun.
Hmmm... I don't have any of those myself except a wide orbed Pluto square to the AC. If being hard on yourself required those aspects, I would hardly ever have been hard on myself in my life.

Isn't being hard on ourselves a universal thing? People may vary in how hard they are on themselves, how often, and in what way, but is there really anyone who never thinks ill of him/herself?
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  #46  
Unread 07-24-2017, 03:28 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post


Or blame your birth chart?

"It's not my fault, I have a terrible chart!"

(Said entirely tongue in cheek.)
It sounds stupid but it's actually true. We live in a society where certain people are encouraged to be infinitely self-effacing and self-blaming, that everything that happens to them is their fault when that's just plain not true. It was the first thing I noticed when I started taking antidepressants -- I stopped blaming myself so much and started to realize that hey, actually, other people are just pricks sometimes. There are so many people who are just plain rude in the world and either don't know or don't care what their affect on other people are even if a simple statement of theirs or a rude honk from a car will ruin someone's entire day. You cannot be so perfectly nice, amenable, and persuasive to make everybody be kind to you all the time. It's just impossible and you might make yourself worse off if you try.

"It's not your fault, people are just pricks sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it" was actually a deep, startling revelation to me. I highly recommend it to others.
Save
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  #47  
Unread 07-24-2017, 03:40 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by graay ghost View Post
It sounds stupid but it's actually true. We live in a society where certain people are encouraged to be infinitely self-effacing and self-blaming, that everything that happens to them is their fault when that's just plain not true. It was the first thing I noticed when I started taking antidepressants -- I stopped blaming myself so much and started to realize that hey, actually, other people are just pricks sometimes. There are so many people who are just plain rude in the world and either don't know or don't care what their affect on other people are even if a simple statement of theirs or a rude honk from a car will ruin someone's entire day. You cannot be so perfectly nice, amenable, and persuasive to make everybody be kind to you all the time. It's just impossible and you might make yourself worse off if you try.

"It's not your fault, people are just pricks sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it" was actually a deep, startling revelation to me. I highly recommend it to others.
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Now that you spelled out what you meant to say, I completely agree. My first reaction to "blame other people" was to think of situations where it's not really their fault either, but sure, there are plenty of situations where someone really is a jerk and it's not your fault, certainly nothing to hate yourself over.
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Unread 07-24-2017, 04:12 AM
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Re: Self hating thoughts rising

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
My theory is that when people think bad thoughts about themselves, the kind of self hating thoughts they have is related to their rising sign. I've noticed from reading charts on these forums that people with Leo rising seem to be especially concerned with how they appear to others, looks, and/or people liking them. If a Leo rising person gets down on him/herself, they're likely to say something like, "I'm ugly!" or, "Nobody likes me!"
No, because Leo Rising never has negative thoughts about self. We're too amazing.

Seriously, generally I'm more on the optimistic side so my negative thoughts are usually caused by something in particular. If so, the nature of the thoughts will be related to that. So if I made an error at work I might think "I'm incompetent" but if I'm treated poorly by someone close to me I might think, "Why don't you love me??"

With Leo on the rise there is also the Sun sign to consider, so a Cap Sun could want to be recognized for their competence as well as a Cap Rising.
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  #49  
Unread 07-24-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Fair enough. I think, though, that rising sign may play a part in how your self loathing thoughts manifest. If you're feeling self hatred, the reason why you say you hate yourself might not be the real reason why you're feeling self hatred, just the story you tell to explain to yourself why you feel that way...
That comes closer to the way the Asc. works- that is how you might bring across and come across with whatever you are feeling towards yourself or your surroundings. The real inadequacies that might lead to self-criticism usually come from Saturn. It might be worth testing this by simply looking at the where and how Saturn is placed in one's chart. In my case, mine is in the 11th house and Despite my gregarious Aquarian self, I do sort of feel left out (Saturn) of a group (11th house), especially if the group is around my age (Saturn is older...). Almost all of my friendships are with people that are at least 5 years and older than I am, or where I am five years and older than the other party.

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I never said I wasn't open to that. What you're quoting me on was what I said to waybread when she seemed to be giving me advice that I wasn't seeking.
Correct, you never literally said that you "weren't open to that", just that you that (what Way said) wasn't the advice you were seeking, and it was there twice. Just trying to point out that as a third person, it does come across as dejection (Saturn). And the poster wasn't deviating from the subject completely, it was just a different angle they were looking from at your post. People interpret the same thing differently, and then put in their time and effort to share their thoughts.
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Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
No, because Leo Rising never has negative thoughts about self. We're too amazing.

Seriously, generally I'm more on the optimistic side so my negative thoughts are usually caused by something in particular. If so, the nature of the thoughts will be related to that.
Precisely, Leo rising (moi aussi), me too, is as optimistic as they come. My self-criticism comes from a Cap Moon, and I suspect that Osamenor's too comes from their Cap energy, and, if there should be anything in Virgo.

Last edited by aquarius7000; 07-24-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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