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  #1  
Unread 05-22-2019, 08:55 AM
Alimal Alimal is offline
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Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

The numerical order of the Zodiac hasn't really seemed right to me...

I notice Cancer was the start in Hellenistic Astrology. It makes sense because Water signs represent Space, and things seem originate from nothing; from chaos to order.

This is my take on it:

1. Cancer
Unity
The womb
The nurturing umbilical chord of the creator
Home
Origins
Genetics

2. Leo
The glorious newborn
Seeing the light
Celebration
Innocence
Bravery

3. Virgo
Experiencing the senses
Anal phase (Freud)
Pleasure and pain (nervous system)

4. Libra
Experiencing companionship
Speaking
Intellectual development

5. Scorpio
Experiencing loneliness
Abandonment (being left alone)
Fear of the unknown

6. Saggittarius
Experiencing free will
Walking
Adventure and fun

7. Capricorn
Experiencing rules and limitations
Punishment from authority
Rejection

8. Aquarius
Experiencing societal dynamics
Learning the system values
Adopting an identity

9. Pisces
Experiencing death of identity
Love confusion
"Crush"

10. Aries
Experiencing liberation from the system
Self empowerment
Spirit

11. Taurus
Experiencing self knowledge
Contentment
Stability

12. Gemini
Experiencing intellectual ability to manifest
Pulling the strings of reality
Innovation






I believe it makes more sense following this order.


What do you think?


Last edited by Alimal; 05-22-2019 at 09:05 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 05-22-2019, 10:54 AM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimal View Post


The numerical order of the Zodiac hasn't really seemed right to me...


I notice Cancer was the start in Hellenistic Astrology.

It makes sense because Water signs represent Space, and things seem originate from nothing; from chaos to order.
This is my take on it:






THEMA MUNDI:
AN ALTERNATIVE TO NATURAL HOUSE RULERS?
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ighlight=thema






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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 05-22-2019, 12:46 PM
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Aries as beginning makes sense to me, to Alimal

Alimal,

Having Aries as the beginning of the astrological chart makes sense for me from a human perspective. Starting from the 1rst and ending with the 12th house:

We start out as beings, only aware of ourselves, gradually we become aware that there's a physical world around us, this gives rise to thinking about the physical world and finally we become aware of the home. After we are in the home for awhile, we want to make ourselves known so we express ourselves and work on that self-expression until we become aware of and are ready to meet others around us. We blend with these others in some way and this allows us to open up to the world at large until we finally have to set some sort of limitation on our openness. Later in life we break down these limitations and restructure them until, finally, at the end of our life, we dissolve into everything around us. Some say we are then reborn, once again only aware of ourselves (this is the circular nature of the chart: the end connects to the beginning).

About the cycle of human life,

Tim
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  #4  
Unread 05-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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Smile Re: Aries as beginning makes sense to me, to Alimal

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Alimal,

Having Aries as the beginning of the astrological chart makes sense for me from a human perspective. Starting from the 1rst and ending with the 12th house:

We start out as beings, only aware of ourselves, gradually we become aware that there's a physical world around us, this gives rise to thinking about the physical world and finally we become aware of the home. After we are in the home for awhile, we want to make ourselves known so we express ourselves and work on that self-expression until we become aware of and are ready to meet others around us. We blend with these others in some way and this allows us to open up to the world at large until we finally have to set some sort of limitation on our openness. Later in life we break down these limitations and restructure them until, finally, at the end of our life, we dissolve into everything around us. Some say we are then reborn, once again only aware of ourselves (this is the circular nature of the chart: the end connects to the beginning).

About the cycle of human life,

Tim
Why is the 8th House associated with death?
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Unread 05-22-2019, 05:22 PM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Aries, Taurus and Gemini are moistening and moderately heating (Air)
Cancer, Leo and Virgo are heating and moderately drying (Fire)
Libra, Scorpio and Sagittarius are drying and moderately cooling (Earth)
Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces are cooling and moderately moistening (Water)

Although a circle has no natural beginning, and all the four tropics are equally important, the sign of Aries has this advantage over the others, that moisture is the quality that accompanies to the greatest extent infancy (ruled by Moon), childhood (ruled by Mercury, although it is less moist than the other two) and youth (ruled by Venus).

Last edited by petosiris; 05-22-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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Unread 05-22-2019, 06:10 PM
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Re: Aries as beginning makes sense to me, to Alimal

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Why is the 8th House associated with death?
Because the Age of Aquarius spells doom.
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  #7  
Unread 05-22-2019, 06:53 PM
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Smile Re: Aries as beginning makes sense to me, to Alimal

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Because the Age of Aquarius spells doom.
The Aquarian Age is an H11 matter. The tropical, base-ten Age of Capricorn, now in its final, culminating stage, is H10, which is why the Corporate mentality is conquering the world. THAT spells doom!
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Unread 05-23-2019, 12:33 AM
Alimal Alimal is offline
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Re: Aries as beginning makes sense to me, to Alimal

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Alimal,

Having Aries as the beginning of the astrological chart makes sense for me from a human perspective. Starting from the 1rst and ending with the 12th house:

We start out as beings, only aware of ourselves, gradually we become aware that there's a physical world around us, this gives rise to thinking about the physical world and finally we become aware of the home. After we are in the home for awhile, we want to make ourselves known so we express ourselves and work on that self-expression until we become aware of and are ready to meet others around us. We blend with these others in some way and this allows us to open up to the world at large until we finally have to set some sort of limitation on our openness. Later in life we break down these limitations and restructure them until, finally, at the end of our life, we dissolve into everything around us. Some say we are then reborn, once again only aware of ourselves (this is the circular nature of the chart: the end connects to the beginning).

About the cycle of human life,

Tim
We don't start out as beings, we start out being one with the mother - in the womb. We are not aware of the self in the beginning.



The cycle you described is what I've went with given the numerical order by Modern Astrology.



The Hellenistic order definitely makes more sense.
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Unread 05-23-2019, 12:35 AM
Alimal Alimal is offline
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
THEMA MUNDI:
AN ALTERNATIVE TO NATURAL HOUSE RULERS?
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ighlight=thema
Don't know what this is, but I might look into it.
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  #10  
Unread 05-23-2019, 12:49 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Aries as beginning makes sense to me, to Alimal

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Originally Posted by Alimal View Post
We don't start out as beings, we start out being one with the mother - in the womb. We are not aware of the self in the beginning.



The cycle you described is what I've went with given the numerical order by Modern Astrology.



The Hellenistic order definitely makes more sense.
We start with the spark of Life-force energy at conception.
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Unread 05-23-2019, 01:15 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Spark of Life-force energy at conception. /H1
Then, gestation in the womb. /H2
Nervous system develops. /H3
Birth into a family and nurturing. /H4

Last edited by david starling; 05-23-2019 at 01:19 AM.
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  #12  
Unread 05-23-2019, 08:52 PM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

There is no ''Hellenistic order'' per se, but all four tropics were considered starting points by some astrologers:

Quote:
Even then, however, one would still be at a loss which of the four to prefer. Indeed, in a circle, absolutely considered, no one of them takes the lead, as would be the case if there were one starting-point, but those who have written on these matters have made use of each of the four, in various ways assuming some one as the starting-point, as they were led by their own arguments and by the natural characteristics of the four points. This is not strange, for each of these parts has some special claim to being reasonably considered the starting-point and the new year. The spring equinox might be preferred because first at that time the day begins to be longer than the night and because it belongs to the moist season, and this element, as we said before, is chiefly present at the beginning of nativities; the summer solstice because the longest day occurs at that time and because to the Egyptians it signifies the flooding of the Nile and the rising of the dog star; the fall equinox because all the crops have by then been harvested, and a fresh start is then made with the sowing of the seed of future crops; and the winter solstice because then, after diminishing, the day first begins to lengthen. It seems more proper and natural to me, however, to employ the four starting-points for investigations which deal with the year, observing the syzygies of the sun and moon at new and full moon which most nearly precede them, and among these in particular the conjunctions at which eclipses take place, so that from the starting-point in Aries we may conjecture what the spring will be like, from that in Cancer the summer, from that in Libra the autumn, and from that in Capricorn the winter. For the sun creates the general qualities and conditions of the seasons, by means of which even those who totally ignorant of astrology can foretell the future.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/2C*.html#10
Also I personally believe that Aries as starter was more popular among astrologers, since many of them employ the Aries - Head;Pisces - Feet gimmick (Valens and Hephaistio for example), and both of them start recording the usual traditions with Aries.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-23-2019 at 08:55 PM.
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  #13  
Unread 05-23-2019, 11:54 PM
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Aries as the beginning, to David

David,

And even if you don't start with conception as the beginning, but with the actual birth (since the chart is taken from the moment of birth), a baby is first only aware of themselves (and something around them that is "not-self"). Then they develop a sense of their physical surroundings. Then the mental connections happen, that tie everything together. And finally the baby realizes that there is an outside world out there that is a home. We all start out intensely focused on ourselves and our own need to survive and develop from there.

About babies' development,

Tim
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Unread 05-24-2019, 12:47 AM
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Smile Re: Aries as the beginning, to David

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
David,

And even if you don't start with conception as the beginning, but with the actual birth (since the chart is taken from the moment of birth), a baby is first only aware of themselves (and something around them that is "not-self"). Then they develop a sense of their physical surroundings. Then the mental connections happen, that tie everything together. And finally the baby realizes that there is an outside world out there that is a home. We all start out intensely focused on ourselves and our own need to survive and develop from there.

About babies' development,

Tim
The Ascendant position at birth links conception in H1 to birth in H4. I see no contradiction there. But, still wondering about H8--possibly not death itself, but an awakened awareness of mortality, after the teenage years.
That would precede the philosophical nature of H9, involving the need to explain one's existence.
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Unread 05-24-2019, 01:53 AM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Cancer is a fiery sign.
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:29 AM
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Smile Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Cancer is a fiery sign.
Well, that's a different pattern from the one I'm using. I'm actually conventional in that regard!
Not to be too conventional, I am using the Heliocentric model, with the obviously fiery Sun pretty much "fixed" in the center of the Solar-system, to shed light on the Geocentric rulerships. That makes the Sun domiciled in Fixed-Fire Leo, and with the standard Fire/Earth/Air/Water sequence, places in the Water category. Since the Moon rules the tides, that fits the Moon ruling that Sign.
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:31 AM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Aries = the head, it also represents the face, which is most closely associated with identity, self, and personality.

Capricorn = the legs, as it is the most stable thing in our body, given its what we use to stand.

Cap/Saturn = stability anyways, so this makes too much sense to be coincidence.

I stand by the original zodiac order.

Also, there are so many charts that prove that the original zodiac order must be true. My own moon is in the 12th house/house of pisces, loneliness, suffering and it makes perfect sense given the condition of my moon/mood and how much I can say for certain that my mood has always contributed to my loneliness and isolation. So surely pisces is the 12th house and thus the 12th zodiac sign.

And lets think about pisces as being the last sign. Pisces is the sign of sacrifice, end, and spiritual enlightenment. Clearly it must be the 12th and final zodiac sign by that description, right?

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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:35 AM
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Smile Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Cancer is a fiery sign.
In 12/12, the Moon is the Domicle-ruler of ; however, the "Regulating-ruler" of is Mars, which is domiciled in Cardinal-Fire Aries.
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:37 AM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Quote:
places in the Water category
Is summer cold?
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:40 AM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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In 12/12, the Moon is the Domicle-ruler of ; however, the "Regulating-ruler" of is Mars, which is domiciled in Cardinal-Fire Aries.
Its natural rulers are Moon by house (summery and feminine), Jupiter by elevation (north elevation), and Mars by triangle for both day and night nativities, although of the triangle, it is the weakest place for Mars and its depression, because Mars rejoices with fiery south winds when it is nearer to the earth in Capricorn.
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:41 AM
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Smile Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Originally Posted by YonyGursho View Post
Aries = the head, it also represents the face, which is most closely associated with identity, self, and personality.

Capricorn = the legs, as it is the most stable thing in our body, given its what we use to stand.

Cap/Saturn = stability anyways, so this makes too much sense to be coincidence.

I stand by the original zodiac order.

Also, there are so many charts that prove that the original zodiac order must be true. My own moon is in the 12th house/house of pisces, loneliness, suffering and it makes perfect sense given the condition of my moon/mood and how much I can say for certain that my mood has always contributed to my loneliness and isolation. So surely pisces is the 12th house and thus the 12th zodiac sign.

And lets think about pisces as being the last sign. Pisces is the sign of sacrifice, end, and spiritual enlightenment. Clearly it must be the 12th and final zodiac sign by that description, right?
Sorry to hear about your suffering from loneliness. What Sign is your Moon in? Btw, I label H12 as the House of the Imagination, so it's not as limited as usually described. [IMO]
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:41 AM
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Arrow Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

Adding to the OP post, Leo is the sign of family togetherness. I suppose we can declare June 21st (the northern summer and southern winter solstices) as the new year instead of Jan 1st, Mar 21st or Nov 1st, varies by religion, culture and astronomical POVs. The sun was in Cancer in the northern spring/southern fall equinoxes 8,000 years ago, when recorded history of human civilization had it's very beginnings.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:43 AM
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Smile Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Is summer cold?
Can water be hot?
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:44 AM
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Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Can water be hot?
No, water is always cold. Air and especially Fire can be hot. If you didn't know, water boils at certain temperature. This is why Cancer, Leo and Virgo are fiery, and the opposing places Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces are watery.
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Unread 05-24-2019, 02:48 AM
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Smile Re: Cancer as the start of the Zodiac makes more sense

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Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post
Adding to the OP post, Leo is the sign of family togetherness. I suppose we can declare June 21st (the northern summer and southern winter solstices) as the new year instead of Jan 1st, Mar 21st or Nov 1st, varies by religion, culture and astronomical POVs. The sun was in Cancer in the northern spring/southern fall equinoxes 8,000 years ago, when recorded history of human civilization had it's very beginnings.
You mean the Sun was in the CONSTELLATION now known as "Cancer" in the tropical and sidereal zodiacs at the Equinoxes 8000 years ago?
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