Do I have any gay indicators in my chart?

Yujeen said:

Btw, I have Venus square Mars in my chart which is considered a gay aspect. But it's a bit too wide, though .......

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Venus Mars square is not necessarily a gay aspect and it would need to be within 5 degrees I would say. It more indicates conflicts with sex and love and poor timing or not getting the two together or having very different needs for love and sex.

Re: Othering/otherness?

EJ53 said:

Please clarify/expand upon what you mean by "othering" and "otherness", ModC.

EJ

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Sure EJ.

I'll quote myself here: For example, if you have an indicator in your chart that somehow indicates that you had an experiencing of othering, which could be as a Gay person, or Black person, that in turn you can use what you've experienced as a source of guidance and healing to others.

So, following my statement here, if "othering" means, in this Gay, it is only the "other" in so far the Straight is the assumed norm.

This concept simply reflects what happens in Society. Gay is first a label of a way of desiring that is deduced or produced via a pyramid of labels of identity. To be Gay, is to first have a Sex, and then to be relating to others of that same Sex in a certain desiring way. Gay can also translate in Gender Identity and Expression; as Templeton suggested not all Gay Men are effeminate, but all Gay Men are Gay. How their Gayness is expressed can be different for each Man, just as Straightness is expressed differently in each Straight Man. In this way, the supposed Dualism breaks down and is expressed in its multiplicative forms, which ultimately transcend the nature of desire to be labeled and becomes singular and self-expressive, as well as emotive.

However, returning back to the classical distinction of Gay from Straight, "otherness" simply seeks to the fact that it is more mainstream and naturalized to be Straight. This is in part because Straightness is more abundant and simply, in terms of basic biology, something which renders itself as more necessary, in the immediate sense, to our survival. Though one could argue that Gayness is beneficial to our survival as well, because as a species, especially as we evolve, realize our potential lies less in our capacity to physically self-manifest, and more in our capacity to simply be self-expressive, sensitive to our needs and to the needs of others outside of the framework of reproduction/procreation and more invested in connection for connection's sake.

"Otherness" however, also carries with it a sense of baggage or a kind of stigma, which is where I brought in the idea that experiencing "Otherness" is a means to bring healing, nurturing, support, guidance, and opening others to love through grasping one's socially fundamental identity divisor.

I don't mean to suggest that only certain people experience "Otherness." Everyone is different, first of all, we are all "Others" to one another. It is just that some categories of identity distinction experience a stigma based on this category of distinction.

ModC

Claire19 said:

I have Mars conjunct Venus in Libra and in the 8th. I have attracted both sexes but am straight although not averse to bisexuality at all. I have thought about it but ultimately want the man thing.....

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Right, but I was talking about metrossexuals, men who polish their nails wax and pluck their eyebrows.

I think to use the terms feminine and masculine is really misleading and yin and yang or active and passive are more accurate....it arises from the misogyny and chauvinism from the past. Most of us are a mixture of both yin and yang I would say.

Inconjunct said:

Your conflation of male homosexuality and effeminacy is offensive and inaccurate. You also confuse the notion of feminine signs with womanishness. People with Taurus strongly featured are not more "womanly" because it is a feminine sign. If you think of the masculine/feminine thing as more related to yang/yin or to positive/negative, or to light/dark, you are closer to the real meaning.

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I totally agree.

EJ53 said:

Why do you believe the "entire world" believes otherwise, PD?

For example, no-one on this thread has suggested that individuals are not born gay...and I think the majority of the population here in the UK consider it to be a natural sexual orientaion.

____________________​

If an individual does not wish their sexual orientation to be known, is it ethical for an astrologer to attempt to ascertain it through the natal chart?

EJ

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I guess when we put our charts up here for all to see then it is open slather for anyone to analyse what they will. One good reason to be anonymous and use a capital city as the birthplace so to make it more general and less specific. Looking at a chart wont necessarily "out" a person. The aspects for homosexuality also represent other influences as well.

Fragoso said:

Sorry, but I could not see your chart (I don't know why but i can't open the linkthat you gave).

I would say that a homosexual would have in his chart:

• Venus in hard aspect to Mars ('I love hating the opossite gender' or 'I hate lose to the opossite gender - so i will love my gender')
• Venus in hard aspect to uranus ('I love unconvencional relationships')
• Venus in hard aspect to neptune ('I am involved in love scandals' or 'I am in love with someone that I shouldn't love')
• Mars in hard aspecto to netune ('Confusin in sexual identidy')
• Venus in 12th house ('Secret love')
• Mars in 12th house ('Secret sexual desires')
• Uranus in 5th house ('Extravagant love')
• Mars in piscis ('I love to be sexualy different')
• Moon in hard aspect to venus (In a chart of a man it creats a 'female' component)
• 18º degree of gemini
• (...)

It is what I have seen .

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Disregarding the pretty offensive ideas about the nature of homosexual identities and relationships, almost none of these apply to me and I'm as gay as it gets.

• Venus in hard aspect to Mars: No aspect at all
• Venus in hard aspect to uranus: Inconjunct (orb 2+)
• Venus in hard aspect to neptune: None
• Mars in hard aspecto to netune[sic]: Sesquiquadrate (orb 3+)
• Venus in 12th house: No, 9th
• Mars in 12th house: No, 7th
• Uranus in 5th house: No, 2nd
• Mars in piscis[sic]: No, Taurus
• Moon in hard aspect to venus (In a chart of a man it creats a 'female' component): I'm female, but it doesn't apply anyway
• 18º degree of gemini: No

Fragoso said:

Sorry, but I could not see your chart (I don't know why but i can't open the linkthat you gave).

I would say that a homosexual would have in his chart:

• Venus in hard aspect to Mars ('I love hating the opossite gender' or 'I hate lose to the opossite gender - so i will love my gender')
• Venus in hard aspect to uranus ('I love unconvencional relationships')
• Venus in hard aspect to neptune ('I am involved in love scandals' or 'I am in love with someone that I shouldn't love')
• Mars in hard aspecto to netune ('Confusin in sexual identidy')
• Venus in 12th house ('Secret love')
• Mars in 12th house ('Secret sexual desires')
• Uranus in 5th house ('Extravagant love')
• Mars in piscis ('I love to be sexualy different')
• Moon in hard aspect to venus (In a chart of a man it creats a 'female' component)
• 18º degree of gemini
• (...)

It is what I have seen .

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Again, as a gay man, this is all unbelievably stupid and offensive.

• I don't "hate" the opposite gender, and I didn't turn out gay because I made some conscious decision about "losing to the opposite gender"
• My relationship is only "unconventional" in that it isn't with a woman, otherwise, we are just as boring as any straight couple.
• I don't consider my relationships to have been "scandalous", nor do I think that gay relationships involve "loving someone you shouldn't"
• I am not confused about my sexual identity
• My sexuality is not secret or extravagant, nor do I consider myself "sexually different" (different from whom??)
• I do not consider myself to have a "female component"

What's more, all of this is astrologically nonsensical as well. I have precisely ZERO of these factors in my chart. Also, what about gay women? Why do they not figure in any of this discussion? Are they invisible?

I would seriously ask the moderators to consider closing down this thread as it seems to me it is becoming a repository of homophobic myths and prejudices. It's disgraceful, it's making me increasingly angry and uncomfortable, and it's leading me to question whether I want to continue posting here.

templeton said:

Why do all the supposed gay indicators have to be stressful aspects?

I seen some charts of gay people with Venus trine Neptune, Venus trine Uranus.

Is it so hard to believe that being gay can be a good thing?

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Good point!! I have a gay friend who has flowing aspects with Venus Mars Neptune Uranus etc and I would say that he has accepted it more readily in himself and has never hidden in the closet or been in denial whilst another gay friend of mine has actually married and tried to live a "conventional" life but in later life came to terms with it and he has mostly stressful aspects. .....I think the stressful aspects indicate that the person has problems with being gay and encounters stressful situations because of his homosexuality. I think also that all of us grow as a result of our challenging aspects and that is the main purpose of them. They give us depth and character....if we survive them!!!

Inconjunct said:

Again, as a gay man, this is all unbelievably stupid and offensive. [...] I would seriously ask the moderators to consider closing down this thread as it seems to me it is becoming a repository of homophobic myths and prejudices. It's disgraceful, it's making me increasingly angry and uncomfortable, and it's leading me to question whether I want to continue posting here.

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Inconjunct:

Your account of your struggles, your pain, your virtues and your strength and resolve and willingness to see yourself as a whole human outside of the dominant discourse of gender, sex, and sexuality, is most compelling and heart-touching.

I always try to stress to others: if you want to continue your study of astrology and free yourself of the more demeaning or inappropriate, comical really, archiac astrological "indicators" of sexuality (gay/straight bisexual, pansexual and the many other labels out there) at all, to simply approach your understanding of astrology from a Yin/Yang perspective, and a platform for the creative principle. This means that the harmony of one's planets is a very delicate synthesis and no one aspect, or even a group of aspects, can delineate precisely how one's sexuality and desire, romantic connections, operate.

That said Inconjunct, I would hate to see you leave, especially based on the reasons you have given. For what it's worth, I have thread about gender, sex, and sexuality, that I would welcome you to read and join in on. I've included a link here which I'm sharing because I believe you might find some grounding in it, or receptive, inclusive, to your experiences and beliefs and lived-reality. Careful though, I say some pretty far out things!

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23471


Bottom line Inconjunct, I hope you stay and share your views about astrology and related topics, and take a moment and breathe in what I feel is a refreshing new and challenging discourse on the matter of sexuality as it is seen socially, and astrology as a whole, mostly older/traditional forms. Keep in mind also cultural barriers and people's own free will to see things in ways that reflect their upbringing and to do the best you can not to take it personally [if only for your peace of mind and so that you stick around. The Moderators here are very willing to listen to concerns of personal demeaning but this thread, though unfortunately I would agree is problematic, is people sharing their views and while I don't agree with them and I question why someone would say these things, they aren't, at least outwardly, bigotted.].

To me, the truth is that while in a broad sense, sexuality covers the basic idea, Gay= Male Bodied Male Identified Man Lover, but this also suggests you'd like/desire/covet anyone with a Male Body. That's not true! That's why any indicator of the body of whom one loves or desires cannot be figured by a Natal Chart. The Natal Chart is about getting down to the specifics. You can ascertain MANY if not ALL the other qualities about the kind of person someone will be attracted to, but that deals with specificities whereas a sexuality labels completely ignore specifics. So how can sexuality really be ascertained from a chart?

Inconjunct, you are blessing and stay strong in who you KNOW you are.


ModC.

Thanks ModC. I've calmed down a bit now

Visited the thread as you suggested and put my two pennyworth in.

Inconjunct

there is no way a natal chart can dictate sexual orientation of a person.
Ronson twins is a clear example. 1 is straight 2nd twin sister is a lesbian.
i think it is more biological vs astrological

T

hey

can i disagree with you??

not every venus / saturn square create unhappy love

"Venus aspecting Netune, witch creats love scandals as I sad and this aspect make you fell attracted to a person that society does not allow---> gay indicator;"

"Venus aspecting Uranus, witch creats rebellion in love: you enjoy 'the forbiden love' so this aspect can really creats a gay person ---> gay indicator;


these are very relatively common aspects. these aspects last for 10-15 days you cant speculate everyone under those aspects is gay.

T


in ancient greece being gay was a way of bonding it was widely practiced in the army... there are scores of records that men used to groom each other before battles

homosexuality was very common in ancient romeas well

Fragoso said:

Hello,
let's aswer to this question: Why are you gay?

I am watching your astrological chart and It I found some 'gay indicators' in your chart, for example:

• Venus aspecting Netune, witch creats love scandals as I sad and this aspect make you fell attracted to a person that society does not allow---> gay indicator;
• Venus aspecting Uranus, witch creats rebellion in love: you enjoy 'the forbiden love' so this aspect can really creats a gay person ---> gay indicator;
• Venus in hard aspect with Saturn (ps: This is not a gay indicator, however this aspec makes you unhappy in the love);
• Venus in hard aspect to pluto, believe ou not, this aspect can really creats a gay person and I know so many cases of gays that have this aspect in their charts.

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You know, all of this doesn't really work when gay relationships aren't considered forbidden in the environment I grew up in.

1. Moon opposite pluto
Yes, (I have this aspect too and in the same signs). This opposition creates an unhappy childhood witch will make you became a person full of hate and unhapiness. The other persons may have fear to be with you cause you are a bit negative in your emotions... But the point is that this aspect creats a person with something different. So, that's why tou suffer so much and makes you a person that is always searching for power.

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Isn't 'something different' a bit vague? And why is being gay related to searching for power or having an unhappy childhood?

2. Mars in 28ºDEGREE OF TAURUS!
Read the description:

"A mighty man holding a whip pushes two enchained slaves before him. He is followed by a wild woman who pulls a billy goat by its horns."
Tyrannical, selfish, and fanatic character. There is a strong propensity for debauchery and sexual perversions. One imposes one's narrow-minded ideas to members of the family, friends, and employees, which arouses much hatred. Sooner or later, slaves are freed, and the despot is overthrown. If in the natal chart, the Moon is waxing and in conjunction with this degree, the constellation of the Pleiades promises high social status, fame, and honours, but it also warns against accidents affecting the face, impaired sight, or violent death.
This degree of taurus is strongly rellationated to homosexuality.

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Oh yeah, I'm so sexually peverted. But uhh that aside I know myself enough to say none of it fits me in the least. Sorry?


I think you'd probably find 'gay indicators' in every natal chart...
Also dude, I wasn't asking why I'm gay. I don't care, I just am. Plus I'm female.

Re: Soul Incarnations Choosing Difficulties as a Means to Grow Powerful and Heal Othe

EJ53 said:

Tolerance removes "othering", ModC...so, healing and justice is not required because there is no "issue" to address...

Thus, Martin Luther King promoted equality/tolerance...and doing so, removed the need for another Martin Luther King.

EJ

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I disagree. The tolerance arguement is of a concern to me. Let's look at the word at the tolerance, just as it stands:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tolerance

–noun 1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

This is what I am sure you are referring to. The concern however, of those who have experienced oppression based on their physical characteristics or desire, isn't for a fair, objective, or permissive attitude. It's for acceptance.

To be tolerant of something, is to "deal with it." To say, "I may not agree with it or like it, but it's there, so I won't change my inner attitude about the person or people like this person," is tolerating someone. How does this promote peace, change, or cultural wellness/awareness? It just keeps everything stagnant.

Accepting people is embracing and adopting change in one's own attitude, moving through the things which keep us separate from one another, which is precisely the concern here.

Saying, "I may not like Men and am a Man, but the fact that you like Men and are Man, doesn't make any difference either way. I see myself in you and you see yourself in me." This practicing acceptance of difference within sameness, and sameness within difference. You still don't have to like someone, but then it becomes about why you don't like a person specifically.

In this way, Martin Luther King produced the radical notion of acceptance.

"I have a dream that one day my four little children.... " all people dream... children speak to a universal experience: we were all children at one point.

Moreover, by saying that what he did removed the need for another Martin Luther King means that you're saying EJ that his act was based on his belief that Race Oppression was the core concern, when really EJ, it was Oppression and it had manifested itself in his experience as Raced individual. He then turned it around and said there is no reason for me to be experiencing this Oppression and I will show others based on my experience as an Oppressed Individual because of my Race, that this is not the way to treat one another and we don't have to stand for it anymore. His was a universal cry, it just manifested as Race-based. He represents a vision, an image, a way to freedom, the pursuit of justice for all people through healing his own wound.


Ryan White is another good example.

Hello Fragoso, I have a few questions.

Fragoso said:

Hello,
you are right. Not all persons that have venus in hard aspect to uranus ou netune are gay. However these aspects CAN make a person gay (I said can).

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Why COULD these aspects make a person gay?

Fragoso said:

For exemple, I know a lot of persons that have, for example, venus opossite uranus and they are not gay.

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Yes. I'm curious why then you think these aspects have anything at all to do with one's sexuality?

Fragoso said:

Futhermore, I was aswering to a person that was asking 'WHY WAS HE GAY?' and I saw some important points in his chart that could explain that.

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The concern though is with trying to find any indicator at all of sexuality in a chart.

Fragoso said:

I believe in astrology and in my opinion it should became an science because all of human nature is determinated by the planets and their aspects and their position in th sky.

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I believe in Astrology as well, but making something a Science doesn't necessarily mean it's accurate, it just means its a way or producing results that function in a certain way for certain reasons. Moreover, if we follow the root of your argument, that Astrology is a Science and can point to indicators of sexuality, you are suggesting making a Science out of sexuality. That is problematic.

Fragoso said:

ps: A venus in hard aspect to saturn can creat a unhappy love in a gaay chart because gay are not 'wellcome' in society (unfortunaly). But you can be happy in love even with this bad aspect if you learn how to livee with it.

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Since I'm not one to totally throw away the merit in tradition, I reccommend seeing it something like this.

Venus is how one relates in Society, alongside People. Uranus is eccentricity, change, but only in relationship to the current society it is within, it only seems different based on the dominant (Saturn) means of social norms. How its inherent qualities manifest and look like in Society is based on the current way the Society is. Therefore Venus in a hard aspect to Uranus can appear to suggest a "different way" of relating, but in actuality, it only appears different based on the current times and society. An example of this is how Homosexuality didn't actually exist, men having sex with men did, for a long time, women having sex with women, for long time, but the term Homosexuality and therefore Gayness, only came out right around the 1800s. Astrology started sooner than that.

Therefore, if look back at these stereotypical indicators of sexuality, what we're seeing is cultural bias reflected in the mapping of Astrological indicators.

Fragoso said:

And now I ask you: WHAT MAKES A PERSON GAY???????????
If you could asnwer to that question go on! Go ahead! I tried at least while you were just 'saying no'.
I will be wainting

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No one knows the answer to that. You forgot to ask what makes a person straight? What makes them bisexual? I think it's different for everyone.
But I am personally convinced that astrology has nothing to do with it.

Fragoso said:

Hi Modcleopatra,
I see that you have some doubts about what I have just said.

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I don't have any doubts. I have some questions.

Fragoso said:

First, venus is the planet that represents the way you love someone.

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I prefer this definition: Venus is the planet that represents the way you bring love, friendships, relationships by how you relate to others.

Fragoso said:

When this planet is in hard aspect to uranus it creats a person that is eccentrice in the love.

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This is a chicken or the egg arguement. Does the planet create the person, or does the person come in with a particular set of planets in mind.

A hard aspect from Uranus to any planet means this person would struggle, be challenged by, what Uranus energy brings.

Fragoso said:

Homosexuality is considerated eccentrice and scandals by the most of society.

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It does depend on the society you're in. I think people have often seen homosexuality first, as need to create the term, and secondly as a way being or behaving, as unnatural.

Fragoso said:

Futhermore, uranus is a rebelius planet and in hard aspect to venus it creats a person witch is rebelius in love,

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This could someone who is just hard-to-get. Cinderella. Sleeping Beauty. Belle. The Little Mermaid.

Niar Rebmevon said:

You know, all of this doesn't really work when gay relationships aren't considered forbidden in the environment I grew up in.

Isn't 'something different' a bit vague? And why is being gay related to searching for power or having an unhappy childhood?

Oh yeah, I'm so sexually peverted. But uhh that aside I know myself enough to say none of it fits me in the least. Sorry?


I think you'd probably find 'gay indicators' in every natal chart...
Also dude, I wasn't asking why I'm gay. I don't care, I just am. Plus I'm female.

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Niar

i hate to say this but it is way too contraversial. May or is or isnt too complicated biology here in works. It is the same is if you were to ask will my baby have blue eyes. I think there is on skyscript there is an article on homosexuality and astrology

not arguing with you just to clear my point...

Fragoso said:

Sorry, but you are wrong... So wrong... pity!
You should relly read this:

Venus squaring and opposition with Uranus: This creates quadrature attractions sudden, but brief. Emotions tend to be unstable and subject to rapid change, and may be in love today and tomorrow indifferent. Different personality and somewhat strange. A person may be unable to sacrifice a little personal freedom to start a stable relationship. So this aspect often indicates divorce. Sexual precocity; affective eccentricity and odd friendships, free unions and clandestine; risk of rupture and scandals in love relationships; strong loving tension, bitterness about the opposite sex, homosexuality could generate; possibility of being a victim of rape or sexual crimes (hippie ).

http://www.girafamania.com.br/primitiva/astrologia-venus.htm
It's from this site. The english is not correct because the site is in portuguese and I used the 'google traductor' lol

This site says what I think too:
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/venusuranusaspects.html

You should really read this
And then say something... ok?
ok
Bye

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Healthy dialogue in which two parties disagree, can only enhance our knowledge of astrology. I do like the cafeastrology website, I just disagree with the basic idea that any kind of sexuality can be delineated from a chart. It might be worth exploring the kinds of people one would be attracted to such as signs or complimentary venus/mars positions, eros, pysche, but the generalized description via a sexed body, is the issue for me. I can disagree with dominant theories or non-dominant theories, enquiry and exploration into such subjects seems like a viable option, for as we progress as a society, a globe, so should our understanding of astrology. I'm having fun.