The book of revelation

waybread

Well-known member
The name of God is blasphemed because of us. It is also written ''It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in humans''. Whoever does not trust in the Lord because of the example of sinful humans (of whom I am foremost) will not be exempt from judgement. You are not making a good argument for not accepting Christ, the reasons are more deep.

I'm not trying to convince anyone not to accept Christ.

If people embrace Christianity and feel they have a personal relationship with their saviour, that's fine.

I think it's important to distinguish between the actual teachings of Jesus (via the Gospels) and highly sectarian doctrines taught by lesser mortals.
 

petosiris

Banned
Strangely enough, the New Testament says almost nothing against homosexuality

Romans 1:26-27 (explicit), 1 Corinthians 6:9 (literally malebedders), 1 Timothy 1:10 (literally malebedders), Jude 1:7 (possibly, though it may refer to the angels or rape) all following Leviticus 18:22, which is one of the few commandments in force for Gentile believers along with those for abstraining from idolatry, adultery, blood and strangled meat (Acts 15:20).
 
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petosiris

Banned
''Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.'' - Luke 17:26-30 ESV

Christ makes the same allusion about the time of the flood that your Rabbis have taught, and so it is now fulfilled before our eyes. Odds was right, a few decades ago, this wasn't normal anywhere, along with some ridiculous interpretations of the aforementioned passages.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Romans 1:26-27 (explicit), 1 Corinthians 6:9 (literally malebedders), 1 Timothy 1:10 (literally malebedders), Jude 1:7 (possibly, though it may refer to the angels or rape) all following Leviticus 18:22, which is one of the few commandments in force for Gentile believers along with those for abstraining from idolatry, adultery, blood and strangled meat (Acts 15:20).

Sorry-- I should have said in the Gospels. This isn't the message of Jesus. This is: "“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

If one's neighbour is gay, Jewish, Muslim, liberal, &c, Jesus didn't distinguish. Clearly one could have a born-again experience yet not observe these most basic commandments.

Actually Christianity ended kosher food laws. It stresses 10 commandments, vs. the 613 in the Jewish Bible.
 

petosiris

Banned
I haven’t got any quotes in front of me - we’re up late cleaning. To me Christ consciousness is the attempt to live into the mind of God by reflecting the earthly mind closest - that of the Son.
It seems there is a difference of interpretation, as waybread says between understanding guidance as coming from the acts of Christ, and the guidance taken from literary framing or authorial dictates. I’m sure there’s scripture to back up both positions, but I’d ask you as well what Christ consciousness represents to you.

It represents some Theosophical-New Age gibberish. Where is the repentance, the confession of sin, the atonement and the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)?

Contrary to your consciousness Paul says ''Have this mind among yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.'' - Philippians 2:5-7 ESV

If you have problem with the authorial dictates (you mean divine commandments), you will have problem with Christ, since he repeated commandments of the Torah to stop sin. I doubt that you have read the Bible though.
 

petosiris

Banned
Sorry-- I should have said in the Gospels. This isn't the message of Jesus. This is: "“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

If one's neighbour is gay, Jewish, Muslim, liberal, &c, Jesus didn't distinguish. Clearly one could have a born-again experience yet not observe these most basic commandments.

Actually Christianity ended kosher food laws. It stresses 10 commandments, vs. the 613 in the Jewish Bible.

Waybread, you have received a common, but distorted conceptualization of the Mosaic law in Christianity.

Well, Yeshua and his initial followers were all Jews. Christ says he did not come to abolish the Law and the prophets, but to fulfill them (that is keep them 100%, not in many ways, but in all ways) - Matthew 5:17. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth, but he was pierced for our transgressions, was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

If you read the New Testament carefully, you will see that the Apostles never stopped following the ''law of righteousness'' (words of Shaul) and they urged the Jewish believers to continue doing so (Jesus himself says so even of the Oral Law in Matthew 23:1-4). Throughout the New Testament, there is a persistent theme of controversy whether the Gentile and proselyte believers must necessary do the same in order to be saved as the Pharisees who believed in Yeshua thought (Acts 15:5). The Apostles decided that it was best to not try the impossible (force the Gentiles to become full Jews), but to only command them to abstain from idolatry, adultery, blood and strangled meat (Acts 15:20), and everything else is of course made obvious by the second greatest commandment. This is why thiefs and murderers will be condemned to the second death. The commandment about the Sabbath is also not required of Gentile believers, see the continuation of the controversy in Romans 14:5-6, Galatians 4:9-11, Colossians 2:16, but the admonition to continue observance of the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:6 (this epistle unlike the previous was meant for Jews). The discrepancy between the two texts is immediately resolved when you factor what I said into account. Sadly Seventh Day Adventists and most Christian denominations are both mistaken on this account. The Messianic Gentile explained this to me.

Note that even Judaism has oral tradition of not enforcing conversion from proselytes and ''righteous gentiles'' who may nevertheless obtain eternal life in the world to come (Noahide laws which are just slightly different from Acts 15:20). We must also remember that the knowledge of the average Gentile at the time about the true God and his commandments was less than that of the most unsophisticated Jew. God is the same yesterday and today and forever. No one has the power to change laws and times.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Gosh Petosiris! Have you changed from being someone who was dognmatic about his version of astrology to someone who is dogmatic about his version of Christianity? (If so, don't worry, you're in good company. Something similar famously happened to St. Paul.)

What I'm waiting to see from you is your acknowledgement that Jesus said that your main tasks in life are to believe in God wholeheartedly and to love your neighbour.

Acts is an interesting book, because it shows the early church leaders grappling with major logistical questions about how to set up the new faith. Acts 10 and 11 are two chapters that move Christians away from Jewish dietary laws. It became clear to early church leaders that they couldn't hope to retain gentile converts, were Christianity to construe itself as a reformed version of Judaism, due to the burden of its many commandments (such as male circumcision, Acts 15.)

Not eating "strangled animals and blood" are but two of the many do's and don'ts in Jewish dietary laws.

As a convert to Judaism, I can tell you what that involves, if you're interested. Practices vary somewhat depending upon whether it's done through an Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform denomination.
 

petosiris

Banned
Gosh Petosiris! Have you changed from being someone who was dognmatic about his version of astrology to someone who is dogmatic about his version of Christianity? (If so, don't worry, you're in good company. Something similar famously happened to St. Paul.)

''For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.'' Galatians 1 ESV

You may want to also read Philippians 3. There Paul explains that he has many reasons for confidence in the flesh (faultless in the law for example), though he considers it rubbish compared to the salvation possible only in Christ, which is why he admonishes dogs who want to mutilate the Gentiles and force them to keep the Mosaic law (in Galatians 5:12 he wishes the Judaizers would emasculate themselves :lol:).

What I'm waiting to see from you is your acknowledgement that Jesus said that your main tasks in life are to believe in God wholeheartedly and to love your neighbour.

I believe that. And this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3).

Acts is an interesting book, because it shows the early church leaders grappling with major logistical questions about how to set up the new faith. Acts 10 and 11 are two chapters that move Christians away from Jewish dietary laws. It became clear to early church leaders that they couldn't hope to retain gentile converts, were Christianity to construe itself as a reformed version of Judaism, due to the burden of its many commandments (such as male circumcision, Acts 15.)

Peter had a vision concerning Gentile believers eating all kinds of beasts and reptiles. You will not find an instance of someone in the New Testament arguing that dietary laws are obsolete for Jews though, and also Gentiles are invited to not eat pork and shellfish (for God has reasons for these commandments), though they should not be a stumbling block for someone who is not capable of following that. If you still don't find that reasonable, I may find more passages and try to convince you.

Not eating "strangled animals and blood" are but two of the many do's and don'ts in Jewish dietary laws. As a convert to Judaism, I can tell you what that involves, if you're interested. Practices vary somewhat depending upon whether it's done through an Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform denomination.

The only two that Gentile believers are required to keep. Did I state something else?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Yes, I’m pretty much an anti-literalist. This means from the get-go I can’t participate in most monotheistic religious scholarly debates which are often hairsplitting and sect-driven. But it confuses me to no end why people who call themselves Christian can overlook the Commandments and the works of God. As pointed out and insistently overlooked by you, they take as a leader a man who flagrantly breaks half the commands. The focus may be community building, but for many it is distinctly exclusionary. There is also no humility in it whatsoever. In most religions there is a recognition by some followers that the creed is being used, as evil and great powers rise and cloak themselves in the outer garments of religion. Again, the reason for interest in archetypes is that they test the sincerity and integrity of belief vs behavior. Why would poetry or psychology strike fear into the heart of a believer who was sincere in his words and deeds?

There seems to be a movement afoot in the US to tap into a liberal Christianity: if you look at the mandate to look after the vulnerable members of society, the liberals seem to be more attuned to it than the evangelical right. The Catholic church does have a history of social welfare, with its historic hospitals run by nuns, but too often Christianity just seems to have lost its way into the morass of self-righteousness. Which is different from actual righteousness.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Petosiris, as the main cook around my house, I'm still trying to understand "strangled meats." (How does one strangle a lamb chop?) I think you mean "strangled animals."

To be kosher, an animal has to be ritually slaughtered. This involves a quick slice to the animal's jugular vein plus a blessing. (So wringing the chicken's neck makes the meat treif.) Then all of the blood has to be removed. However, not animals are kosher: they need to have a spit hoof and chew their cud. This leaves out pigs, horses (still popular in parts of Europe,) and most wild game (because it is normally killed by hunting.) Then it can't be cooked with milk.

One thing that a lot of non-Jews misunderstand is that much of Jewish law is not in the Jewish Bible (OT.) It is in the Talmud and in subsequent commentaries. This is because some of the 613 commandments were not clear enough to put directly into practice in daily life. The Talmud has two versions, developed by rabbis during the centuries before and after the emergence of Christianity. Usually the larger version, the Babylonian Talmud, initiated during the exile, is the one meant. Much of this existed in oral, not compiled written form, during the time of Jesus.

Jewish custom is also regional, because Jewish communities were widely separated in the diaspora and developed their own traditions (for example, concerning Passover.)

Then Judaism had to evolve with changing technologies. Does electricity count as fire? Does driving a car entail both fire and work? (Both prohibited on the Sabbath.)

Throughout its history, Judaism was essentially Orthodox, although with its regional differences. Reform Judaism began to emerge during the Enlightenment and is widespread in North America today; while the Conservative movement emerged more recently as a middle ground. Of course, many Jews are secular, including the great majority of Israelis.

Orthodox laws concerning the Sabbath have always been really strict. But a lot of them are extra-biblical. To Orthodox Jews, however, the Talmud is scripture, as much as the Jewish Bible is.

So the gulf between Christianity and Judaism on matters of kashrut is wide, and has been since the council decisions in the book of Acts. Much of the Talmud had already taken shape during the first century CE, but I don't think this body of Jewish law is mentioned in the NT.

But I must say, Petosiris, that I do not find you to be a compelling advertisement for Christianity. Time and again you fall back on rigid interpretations of proof-texts to demonstrate your personal superiority. This is hubris.

Maybe you could turn now to showing by example how Christianity is a religion of love towards your fellow humans.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Re: Donald Trump.

Few people are politicians.

However, many of us try to stay current with global affairs, as informed citizens.

You might want to read up on him.
 

petosiris

Banned
But I must say, Petosiris, that I do not find you to be a compelling advertisement for Christianity. Time and again you fall back on rigid interpretations of proof-texts to demonstrate your personal superiority. This is hubris.

This is a serious accusation. But the Lord will tell who was right and wrong at the day of his judgement.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Why don't you exhibit loving kindness now? I can't be wrong about that being one of the most central teachings of Jesus.

I'm not in competition for your soul.
 

petosiris

Banned
Re: Donald Trump.

Few people are politicians.

However, many of us try to stay current with global affairs, as informed citizens.

You might want to read up on him.

Did Jesus Christ involve himself with Caesar's affairs?

My opinion (for this I don't have command) is that you should not vote for anyone lest you partake in the sin of the red or the blue devils. (I have voted in the past, and I regret and repent doing so.)
 
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petosiris

Banned
Why don't you exhibit loving kindness now? I can't be wrong about that being one of the most central teachings of Jesus.

I'm not in competition for your soul.

Waybread, the most central teaching of Jesus is that he is the promised Christ, which you reject. As for me not being loving and kind, I do not digress, and I ask for forgiveness.
 
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petosiris

Banned
One thing that a lot of non-Jews misunderstand is that much of Jewish law is not in the Jewish Bible (OT.) It is in the Talmud and in subsequent commentaries. This is because some of the 613 commandments were not clear enough to put directly into practice in daily life. The Talmud has two versions, developed by rabbis during the centuries before and after the emergence of Christianity. Usually the larger version, the Babylonian Talmud, initiated during the exile, is the one meant. Much of this existed in oral, not compiled written form, during the time of Jesus.

According to the Scriptures, Jesus never broke a commandment in the law (because he was without a sin), however he did criticize the Pharisees (a sect that was very strict in keeping the Oral Law - Paul was also a Pharisee) in Matthew 23:23 for neglecting the important matters of the law (straining out a gnat but swallowing a camel), in John 7:19 he criticizes them as breaking the law by wanting to kill him and in John 5:46 he rebukes them for not believing in Moses. You may of course instead prefer to believe what the Talmud says about the life of Jesus.
 
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