Death of a parent and Pluto transits

Hi, I have been curious about this for a while. My father died of natural cause during my transit Pluto square sun transit (3 degrees separating). I've heard that Pluto transits to Sun or Moon in the child's chart could be indicative of the natural death of a parent. I am not talking about the charts of children. I am talking about the charts of adults with elderly parents who at any time may die of old age.

I am curious to get a discussion going and ask people to look at what was happening in their own charts during the death of a parent. To see if we can get a pattern going. Just out of interest.

Thanks

Flowergirl said:

Hi, I have been curious about this for a while. My father died of natural cause during my transit Pluto square sun transit (3 degrees separating).

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That's called "coincidence." It is not Astrology, not to mention that Pluto is way out of orb for a transit (orbs are 30' of arc). The Planet Pluto does not represent death and never did.

Flowergirl said:

I've heard that Pluto transits to Sun or Moon in the child's chart could be indicative of the natural death of a parent.

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That's bad astrology. I had transiting Pluto square Natal Sun, oppose Natal Moon, oppose Natal Mars, square Natal Uranus, square Natal Pluto, oppose Natal Sun and then square Natal Moon in that order. Nothing happened.

I will live to see transiting Pluto oppose Natal Pluto, conjunct Natal Moon and beyond.

I've also posted quite a few charts for dead people, and transiting Pluto was never a factor in any of the charts. Some of those charts were suicides and there was no Natal Sun/Pluto conjunction which destroys that myth (see the stupid thread in the "Psychology" section with the very bad book written by a very poor Modern Astrologer needlessly frightening people out of their wits), but then common sense should prevail, because any Planet conjunct the Sun is Combust and effectively powerless (unless it happens to be Cazimi).

I agree with Robert Schmidt in that you need about 200 charts to have a theory considered.

Just glancing at Prince Henry's chart, transiting Pluto was inconjunct Natal Moon by Sign (not to mention out of orb by 19°) and 20° out of orb with Natal Sun. In fact, transiting Pluto makes no aspects whatsoever to natal Planets in his chart on the day his mother (Princess Diana) died.

Looking at Prince William's chart, once again, nary an aspect by transiting Pluto. It has separated from Natal Uranus by 1°, but then it would be totally absurd to suggest that transiting Pluto conjunct Natal Uranus heralded the death of his mother. That would be really really bad astrology.

Even in Diana's chart, there are no aspects although transiting Pluto has separated from a square with Natal Mars by more than 1°. Given their Sign placements and House rulerships, suggesting that transiting Pluto square Mars portended the death of Diana is huge leap.

Hi Flowergirl. I think this is a very interesting area. I remember reading something by Donna Cunningham, where she talks about the taboo in modern astrology of predicting the deaths of even the very elderly. But she points out that it can be very helpful to give people time to prepare for such things by raising the possibility. I guess you have to take into account your assessment of how the person will take it. I think people with strong Pluto, by the time they get to the age where their parents may die of old age, are particularly good at dealing with anticipating deaths.

Another interesting thing I came across was in a transcript of a Liz Greene seminar on transits, where she discusses her observations that someone may lose a parent with no apparent appropriate transit and no significant emotional impact, but then five or ten years later, they get something like Pluto transiting the natal Sun or Moon or meridian axis or something, and it hits them and all the grief and anger and whatever comes out.

Both of my parents are still alive, so I don't have personal experience of this. But I recently looked at the chart of someone whose Mother died in the midst of our four or five meetings. She was very accepting of it. It happened while transiting Saturn was making a close grand trine with her Moon in Aquarius and Sun in Gemini. The nodal axis was very active natally and by transit. Transiting Pluto was less than half a degree separating from a quincunx to her natal Jupiter.

Hi Flowergirl,
My father died of natural cause about a month ago. I checked transits to my sun and moon for the time he died and what do I see? A pluto transit to my natal sun. Transiting pluto semisquare my natal sun. And I've got an emotional impact too. It's been very very painful for me. So maybe you are onto something here.
best wishes

personally, I do think there could be possibly be a correlation between pluto. My father died when conj MC retrograde hit. same time it conj my mother's sun. I actually timed with and gave my mother 3 dates and he died on the retrograde hit....

I don't beleive there is a definitive 'death prediction' with any transits or delination and don't necessarily feel it's appropriate to attempt prediction either. There has been quite a few threads on AW, just use our search feature.

flowergirl, it may help to reason through your question.

1. Some people are born with transiting Pluto square sun. They experience this "transit" ongoingly!

2. If this transit really worked, the life insurance, pension, and actuarial industries would be all over it. Think about it: all one would have to do to time a death would be to look for our Pluto squares in an ephemeris. Then again, if you were born just past the timing of a transiting Pluto square sun, it would take longer than you would live to get another one.

3. My transiting Pluto square sun was difficult. But by the time it rolled up, both my parents had died already.

Look to Pluto for metaphorical, not literal death. If something is seemingly decaying or dying in your sense of self (sun) this is the time to make some changes.

Thank you for everyone's responses.

miquar said:

I remember reading something by Donna Cunningham, where she talks about the taboo in modern astrology of predicting the deaths of even the very elderly. But she points out that it can be very helpful to give people time to prepare for such things by raising the possibility. I guess you have to take into account your assessment of how the person will take it.

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This is what I was thinking. That it can be helpful to psychologically prepare. I was actually thinking of this inside my own family, shared only with my mom who is more open minded and flexible to the possibility of things.

I would never attempt anything like it with a possible client or anyone I don't know very very well. Again, thanks.

miquar said:

Transiting Pluto was less than half a degree separating from a quincunx to her natal Jupiter.

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lostris said:

Transiting pluto semisquare my natal sun.

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Those are minor aspects. I don't see how you could possibly justify a minor aspect such a momentous event. A quincunx is actually no aspect all. That's what we call "reaching" to coerce a chart to say something it doesn't.

This would be an example of astrology:

astrologer50 said:

My father died when conj MC retrograde hit.

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The 10th House would be your father's derived 7th House, which is a House of Death just like the 4th and 8th Houses (because the 7th House opposes the Ascendant).

Still, I would dismiss it as coincidental, since I see no evidence Pluto is a "personal Planet." I would be looking at Directed Sun to the Lot of the Father, or your Profected Ascendant or Sun making a square or opposition to the Lot of the Father in your Natal Chart, as well as looking at the Lot of the Father's Death.

All I can add is that my grandfather passed away last year exactly - to the day - as transiting Pluto was entering my 8th house.

I also hear that Plutonian people (i.e. those heavily influenced by Pluto in the natal chart) usually have a very strong relationship with their grandparents; that has been true in my case as well.

bob,

The 10th House would be your father's derived 7th House, which is a House of Death just like the 4th and 8th Houses (because the 7th House opposes the Ascendant).

Still, I would dismiss it as coincidental, since I see no evidence Pluto is a "personal Planet." I would be looking at Directed Sun to the Lot of the Father, or your Profected Ascendant or Sun making a square or opposition to the Lot of the Father in your Natal Chart, as well as looking at the Lot of the Father's Death

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how come same time pluto retro conj mother sun? [deleted attacking comment - Moderator Note: people are allowed their opinions and there is no reason to comment on them sarcastically]

I usually don't take quincunx while calculating for other people. I have never found them to be of much importance.

However, a quincunx (transit) if happening at a time of other bad transits like oppositions and square, will increase the bad effect.

My experiences mostly.

Donna Cunningham had better read the ethics codes of major astrological associations which prohibit death prediction. Or anything else liable to scare the bejeezus out of someone.

We should all realize that we could die at any time. Make sure our papers and finances are in order, and frequently tell people we care about that we love them.

Traditional astrologers had different methods for predicting death (a hot topic when most people didn't live very long.) They did not agree on the correct technique, and some famous predictions by leading astrologers were wrong.

The quincunx has been around for a long time. It indicates adjustment. As such, it does suggest the effect of a loved one's death on the survivors.

The movement of a planet into the 8th house may indicate that the person is thinking about death. Which naturally would happen when a loved one dies. My Pluto has never been anywhere near my 8th house, however, yet both my parents had died when I was in my mid-30s. All of my grandparents had died by the time I was in my early 20s.

I don't really take quincunx in my calculations.

Also I would like to ask if other astrologers think it important to take a quincunx with the last outer planet as important.

Quincunx is a very minor aspect, and I have found the sextile to be more important than the quincunx.

uranus, neptune and pluto are the outer planets, and out of them I usually choose only uranus for predictions. And in a general way I feel that pluto in any house only shows intensity of purpose for that particular house.

Comments would be appreciated.

Likeavirgin said:

All I can add is that my grandfather passed away last year exactly - to the day - as transiting Pluto was entering my 8th house.

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That's anecdotal musings, not astrology. Are you suggesting that every time transiting Pluto enters the 8th House someone's grandparents will die? Pluto had been in my 1st House for several years when my grandfather died. What does that prove? Nothing. [deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

BobZemco;Four Modern Astrologers said Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy: [I said:

"…can be very good with kids..." "...just your presence would be beneficial to other people..." "...a fairly well-rounded personality...you can offer a good role model..." "You have an instinctive awareness and your uninhibited response to life can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter."
[/I]
Traditional Astrology Says: "...shows a strange mind and very wicked."

Gacy received 12 Death and 21 Life sentences for the murder of 33 boys.

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Could we see his chart? Could you post this chart or tell me where to find it?

sethi said:

I don't really take quincunx in my calculations.

Also I would like to ask if other astrologers think it important to take a quincunx with the last outer planet as important.[if it aspects an inner planet then yes it's personal and felt]

Quincunx is a very minor aspect, and I have found the sextile to be more important than the quincunx. [really, I've always thought it was a 'major' aspect]

uranus, neptune and pluto are the outer planets, and out of them I usually choose only uranus for predictions. And in a general way I feel that pluto in any house only shows intensity of purpose for that particular house.

Comments would be appreciated.

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Wherever pluto is posited is where we look to have control,[over matters appertaining to the house] obsess over things

we have an ongoing thread you may like to contribute discussing outers

are outer planets generational or personal
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39021

sethi said:

I usually don't take quincunx while calculating for other people. I have never found them to be of much importance.

However, a quincunx (transit) if happening at a time of other bad transits like oppositions and square, will increase the bad effect.

My experiences mostly.

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I've heard they do have importance with major difficulties in life even in transits

The most recognizable aspects out of all the aspects are

The square (especially if saturn and mars are involved.
The opposition (saturn and moon involvement).
Conjunction
Trine

Where sextile is concerned, I have never felt it to be a major aspect in true sense

''Sextile — intermediate major/minor aspect


A sextile (abrv. SXt or Sex) is an angle of 60° (1/6 of the 360° ecliptic, or 1/2 of a trine [120°]). A separation (orb) of 60±04° is considered a sextile. The sextile has been traditionally said to be similar in influence to the trine, but of less significance. It indicates ease of communication between the two elements involved"


I have found that you can't expect anything major good to happen while interpreting for a sextile. Only minor things, as pointed out above , ease of communication. It cannot really compare to a trine.

I simply don't use "semi sextile" at all. And this is my experience and not related to old astrology or new astrology. Of course others may disagree. But I would say "to each his own". You have your experiences and I have mine.

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I wouldn't put the quincunx right up there with the conjunction and major aspects, but I think it does have an effect. In transits it indicates some sort of adjustment.

In natal charts, it doesn't have the tension-filled call-to-action of the square, nor the easy flow of the trine. It acts as a minor irritant--one that sort of bothers the individual, but where s/he doesn't have enough impetus to change it. So it lives in the world of uncertainty and worry.

You have to use a narrow orb. At 154 degrees you have a tri-septile. At 144 degrees, you have a bi-quintile. Septiles live in a more passive, subjective, but spiritual realm. Quintiles are more active, indicating some talent and the ambition to make use of them.

Put two quincunxes together with a sextile between them and you have a yod. This focalizes the planet at the tip of the triangle.

BobZemco said:

Those are minor aspects. I don't see how you could possibly justify a minor aspect such a momentous event. A quincunx is actually no aspect all. That's what we call "reaching" to coerce a chart to say something it doesn't.

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I must say I completely disagree.

In my experience the quincunx is always present in times of major changes - birth, marriage, travel, moving house ... and most certainly death. It will show through transits, progressions, directions and age harmonics.

I have written an article about this aspect here: http://aliceportman.com/?p=452

I have also illustrated its function to some degree in the article on determining the time death here: http://aliceportman.com/?p=1382

Alice