A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

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david starling

Well-known member
Kiril stoychev said:
“The zodiac of twelve signs of equal 30-degree length had its origin in Babylonia sometime during the fifth century B.C, the period of development of scientific mathematical astronomy, and was invented for use in astronomical computation, not divination. It provides a standard reference system for measuring the daily (or monthly) progress of the sun and the planets with respect to the twelve equal 30-degree segments. ” F.Rochberg
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Tropical zoidac also was invented (*Hipparchus) for use in astronomical computation.


What is important to us as astrologers is the interpretation of signs, their meanings

The correspondences between the seasonal and ritual activities for each month in the Nippurian calendar, and the name of the zodiac constellation that rises heliacally during that month. Thanks to Prof. Emelianov work we can surely say that, the characteristics of the rituals and activities that took place in ancient Sumer 2000 years B.C., played a significant role in naming the zodiac constellations (Aries, Taurus, etc.).
The events that took place on earth were dictated by the position of the Sun and its characteristics during each season. These events then shaped the features and qualities that were given to the zodiac constellations, and not vice versa, as many people think.
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The claws of the Scorpion were separated in order to create a 12th constellation. This was around 2200 B.C., in ancient Babylonia. I totally agree that the first fully recorded zodiacal imagery was tropically based, using heliacal observation. Those same basic images (with some Hellenistic alterations) were affixed to the constellations. During the time of Hipparchus, those same constellations were able to be encompassed in the tropical zodiac without the use of heliacal observation, due to the precessional shift.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Kiril stoychev said:
“The zodiac of twelve signs of equal 30-degree length had its origin in Babylonia sometime during the fifth century B.C, the period of development of scientific mathematical astronomy, and was invented for use in astronomical computation, not divination. It provides a standard reference system for measuring the daily (or monthly) progress of the sun and the planets with respect to the twelve equal 30-degree segments. ” F.Rochberg
---------------------------
Tropical zoidac also was invented (*Hipparchus) for use in astronomical computation.
Click to expand...

Check out “HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC”
- an in-depth exploration of the origins of the Babylonian Zodiac and its location in the ecliptic :smile:
which reveals that the division of the ecliptic into tropical astrological signs
was originally a derivation of Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.)

QUOTE

"...dividing the solar year into twelve equal months
commencing with the vernal equinox
in which each solar (tropical) month
 is named after one of each of the twelve signs..." Dr. Robert Powell

currently available on amazon
TROPICAL ZODIAC is a SEASONAL CALENDAR
the key point being

that the signs of the original sidereal zodiac
each thirty degrees long
coincide closely with the TWELVE ASTRONOMICAL CONSTELLATIONS of the same name http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related

Kiril stoychev said:
Quote:


What is important to us as astrologers is the interpretation of signs, their meanings

The correspondences between the seasonal and ritual activities for each month in the Nippurian calendar, and the name of the zodiac constellation that rises heliacally during that month. Thanks to Prof. Emelianov work we can surely say that, the characteristics of the rituals and activities that took place in ancient Sumer 2000 years B.C., played a significant role in naming the zodiac constellations (Aries, Taurus, etc.).
The events that took place on earth were dictated by the position of the Sun and its characteristics during each season. These events then shaped the features and qualities that were given to the zodiac constellations, and not vice versa, as many people think.
Click to expand...
 
D

david starling

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
on the contrary

you yourself have pinned your theories on sidereal measurements
and you stated that at commencement of this thread :smile:
the OP constantly refers to sidereal matters
and you yourself have brought sidereal matters to your own discussion
Click to expand...

That's because I consider both the sidereal AND the tropical zodiac as valid methods for astrological measurements. You, on the other hand, claim only sidereal astrology as being astrologically valid. I'm saying that both types of Ages, tropical and sidereal, are in effect at all times.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Kiril stoychev said:
- YES, why?
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Thanks. I ask, because I believe the Ages belong in a Chart. You're using the Vernal Point to determine the Sign and its degree regarding the Ages, but that point can't transit the tropical zodiac, since it's already in use, locating the First Point of tropical Aries.
What I've been describing on this thread, is a way to determine a version of the Ages that does transit the tropical zodiac, without referring to the constellations at all, by utilizing Kepler's momentous discovery of elliptical orbits. The results correlate quite well with the timeline of the developments of civilization according to Western history.
Any logical objections? :unsure:
 
K

Kiril stoychev

Member
Why the stars of the zodiacal constellations were important to the ancient Sumerians - because they are close to the ecliptic that marks the path of the Sun. And the Sun is this factor that created the tropical zodiac from which we can derive meanings.

So, in my opinion, which I support with Emeliyanov's research, the zodiac arose as a result of the interaction between the Sun and man (Earth), which gave birth to human civilization (respectively, life on earth). The sun is projected in the ecliptic on the celestial sphere, the earth is projected on the celestial sphere as the celestial equator (The celestial equator is the great circle of the imaginary celestial sphere on the same plane as the equator of Earth). The intersection of both is the point of the vernal (and autumn) equinox.


This is why this point is so important and it marks the beginning of the tropical zodiac.

Houses represent a local system between Earth and the Sun and are even more relevant than the signs.

In terms of ages, they are related to precession. Obviously, this movement must also be taken into account (but since the cycle is very long - 26,000 years, it would be relevant for the individual stages that humanity goes through - ages).

The equinox point is moving relative to the fixed stars, so we can look for a starting point in the fixed stars and track its displacement. But we can also say that the equinox is fixed and the constellations are displaced (because in the universe every movement is relative)




Indeed, we cannot see the vernal point, but we can see which constellation rises on the first day of spring. And today this is the Aquarius constellation.





david starling said:
Thanks. I ask, because I believe the Ages belong in a Chart. You're using the Vernal Point to determine the Sign and its degree regarding the Ages, but that point can't transit the tropical zodiac, since it's already in use, locating the First Point of tropical Aries.
What I've been describing on this thread, is a way to determine a version of the Ages that does transit the tropical zodiac, without referring to the constellations at all, by utilizing Kepler's momentous discovery of elliptical orbits. The results correlate quite well with the timeline of the developments of civilization according to Western history.
Any logical objections? :unsure:
Click to expand...
 
D

david starling

Well-known member
passiflora said:
Pictures - or it didn’t happen! David :)
Click to expand...

Graphics aren't yet in my skill-set. Here's a way to visualize the tropical Age Window in form of a trident, centered on the center-line of the Earth's elliptical orbit, with the center point affixed to the Point of Perihelion:

This Age Trident runs from Earth, at the center of the zodiac, to the circumference, and is pointing directly at tropical Capricorn. The leading tine of the trident is the Age-indicator for everyone as individuals. The center tine is for societies, and the last is for traditions. So, tradition is always one full Sign behind individuals, which connects us to the Age before ours.

These are Earth's Ages, and in the ancient Greek religion, the trident symbolized "Earthly Authority", bestowed by Gaea, personification of the Earth, over the 3 realms--The Sky (Zeus, a trident of 3-pronged lightening), the Sea (Poseidon, a fisherman's trident), and the Underworld (Pluto, a trident missing the middle prong, known as a bident).

Pluto's bident represents the Window itself, with its 2 prongs 30 degrees apart, now close to Convergence with the boundaries of tropical Capricorn. Two of the ancient gods with Earthly Authority are now approaching the outer prongs: Pluto is nearing the leading point, and Zeus/Jupiter is right at the trailing point.

Saturn is transiting within the Age Window also. Saturn is the current first-point holder of the Trident, which is pictured as the "Devil's Trident". Correlating, the early Roman Catholic Church, at the very beginning of the Age of tropical Capricorn, named him "Prince of this world".
It's a real Wang Dang Doodle going on between the prongs of Pluto's bident!

For Kiril: The tropical Age Trident has Direct-motion, and is approaching tropical Aquarius. So, both tropical and sidereal zodiacs show an Aquarian Age coming into view.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Zeus/Jupiter is currently the third-point holder of the tropical Age Trident, and is Conjunct its most powerful Age-position for our times.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
Graphics aren't yet in my skill-set.
Here's a way to visualize the tropical Age Window in form of a trident,
centered on the center-line of the Earth's elliptical orbit,
with the center point affixed to the Point of Perihelion:
Click to expand...
Good news - "Gaias Trident" for those whose skillset includes graphics :smile:


precesion01.jpg


[Deleted quote of post that was in violation of the rules and has been deleted. - Moderator]
 
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david starling

Well-known member
And yet, Kiril uses the tropical zodiac for Charts.

None of these sidereal graphics negates the tropical Ages. They coexist along with the other versions, which cannot be pictured in a tropical Chart. The tropical Ages are a function of the Anomalistic Year, and Progression of the Perihelion, rather than the other type known as Precession of the Equinoxes. Both are the result of Earth's wobble as it rotates.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
The third-point Trident holder, currently Jupiter, has Earthly Authority regarding tradition. So, if Jupiter incarnated as an astrologer, he'd be a Traditionalist. :biggrin:
 
Osamenor

Osamenor

Staff member
All,

Respect the topic of the thread you are posting in. I have just deleted several off topic posts. That included a post that was made to drive traffic to the poster's blog, which is strictly against the rules, and quotes of that post.

If you have an astrological blog, you may not post on this site to promote it, except on the Advertising board. Anywhere else, self promoting posts are spam and are treated as such.

On topic, promotion free,
Osamenor
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Kiril stoychev said:
Why the stars of the zodiacal constellations were important to the ancient Sumerians - because they are close to the ecliptic that marks the path of the Sun. And the Sun is this factor that created the tropical zodiac from which we can derive meanings.

So, in my opinion, which I support with Emeliyanov's research, the zodiac arose as a result of the interaction between the Sun and man (Earth), which gave birth to human civilization (respectively, life on earth). The sun is projected in the ecliptic on the celestial sphere, the earth is projected on the celestial sphere as the celestial equator (The celestial equator is the great circle of the imaginary celestial sphere on the same plane as the equator of Earth). The intersection of both is the point of the vernal (and autumn) equinox.


This is why this point is so important and it marks the beginning of the tropical zodiac.

Houses represent a local system between Earth and the Sun and are even more relevant than the signs.

In terms of ages, they are related to precession. Obviously, this movement must also be taken into account (but since the cycle is very long - 26,000 years, it would be relevant for the individual stages that humanity goes through - ages).

The equinox point is moving relative to the fixed stars, so we can look for a starting point in the fixed stars and track its displacement. But we can also say that the equinox is fixed and the constellations are displaced (because in the universe every movement is relative)




Indeed, we cannot see the vernal point, but we can see which constellation rises on the first day of spring. And today this is the Aquarius constellation.
Click to expand...

The line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes is the original method, made famous by Karl Jung, pointing out the Ages in the equal-Sign, sidereal zodiac. And you're right, it is an Earth-Sun relationship, just as the Ecliptic is both the Earth's orbital plane projected out into space, and the Sun's path as it transits the zodiac.

So is the Line of Apsides and Earth's Point of Perihelion, an Earth-Sun relationship, which I'm using to point out the Ages in the tropical zodiac.

What I don't understand is why, as a tropicalist, you're so intent on using the constellations for the Ages. You've already explained them as being named seasonally, for a tropical calendar over 4000 years ago.

The true cause of the Ages isn't the constellations, it's Earth's "wobble" as it rotates. The Moon is also involved, in that regard.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
passiflora said:
Not excited. All I remember of Jupiter in Capricorn on a social level is the Lehman bankruptcy, and this time it’s with Saturn-Pluto. What do you feel?

Where do these come from?
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First, Second, and Third Worlds. Also, individuals create societies, and societies create traditions.
First World fosters individualism, Second World socialism, and Third World, traditionalism. The book, "The Lonely Crowd"-{David Riesman} probably inspired it. He termed them "Inner-Directed", "Other-Directed", and "Tradition-Directed". The ultimate goal was to combine all three in becoming a "Self-Directed" person.
 
K

Kiril stoychev

Member
I'm not a tropicalist, I'm an astrologer. The science of astrology studies light in its various manifestations (especially Sunlight). BUT, in this sense, the light coming from the stars is also important. The point of view in astrology is geocentric, I would even say anthropocentric.
Therefore, it is important what the person sees. And today, if one observes the eastern horizon, on the day of the spring equinox, the stars of the constellation Aquarius will rise.
This will be the case for about 2000 years.


david starling said:
The line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes is the original method, made famous by Karl Jung, pointing out the Ages in the equal-Sign, sidereal zodiac. And you're right, it is an Earth-Sun relationship, just as the Ecliptic is both the Earth's orbital plane projected out into space, and the Sun's path as it transits the zodiac.

So is the Line of Apsides and Earth's Point of Perihelion, an Earth-Sun relationship, which I'm using to point out the Ages in the tropical zodiac.

What I don't understand is why, as a tropicalist, you're so intent on using the constellations for the Ages. You've already explained them as being named seasonally, for a tropical calendar over 4000 years ago.

The true cause of the Ages isn't the constellations, it's Earth's "wobble" as it rotates. The Moon is also involved, in that regard.
Click to expand...
 
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david starling

Well-known member
passiflora said:
Got it. I was wondering about the astrological connection of the worlds and the tines - how do you derive these?
Click to expand...

Sagittarius blended with Capricorn, under some version of Jupiterian authority for the 3rd point. The expressions "First World" and "Third World" used to be more widely used. Now it's "developed" and 'developing" nations. The Second World wasn't used, it was "Socialist" or " Communist". That would include "Fascist dictatorship". The First World is Capricorn blended with Aquarius, under Saturnian authority, like the Second World, but with more freedom of expression. The forced vaccinations are a second point characteristic. Whereas, gay marriage and drug legalization are first point.
Is this what you mean? Not sure about how you're using the word "derived". I'm just making correlations based on leading point, center-point and trailing point placements. Rather vague, I know, but it hasn't been a major area of study for me.
Btw, have you read "The Lonely Crowd" ?
 
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