The place to rant about all things horary

tikana

Well-known member
i have actually experimented with that .. I was getting buch of times yes yes yes yes
I was rambling that's IMPOSSIBLE!
once i got a NO i was like HURRAY!!! my logic tanked
bloody thing was a yes

LOL:w00t:

btw i gave up on "should i go to my top pick grad school??" ahhaha answer "stay away it is weak!" (detrimental)
I was thinking "what the hell!" I talked to a few people who went there.. they were raving about the school
I finally gave up on it. LOL wont even bother applying ... no matter what i do it is a NO
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
what else shall we rant about?

How about "I reject your so many years of studying and substitue my thoughts based on how the 'gestalt' of the chart feels to me?'

"Read CA, or the texts? Why bother when I found this really cool website that tells me everything I need to know..."
 

tikana

Well-known member
Tsmall

yeah it bothers me that people just do not bother to grind horary.. when i started hoorary gawd long time ago. the information was scattered.. now it is more in the opened and organized but people tend to put stuff in the open without having any kind of back up...and when you ask "where did you get this?" the replies are lets just say vague. Horary has set of rules but at the same time it demands common sense and critical thinking.

T
 

Dirius

Well-known member
I think the problem, more often than not, is that most newbies simply don't understand the phrase:"considerations before judgement".

- It means:Things to consider, before pronouncing judgement

- It does not mean: Things to consider before judging the chart.

What it means is that, before giving your delineation on the chart, you should take a look and consider these factors (like Moon VOC, Early ASC, etc) which could get in the way of the final resolution for the chart, or affect the outcome in a particular way.

It does not mean that the chart is invalid. In fact, as tsmall and tik said before, all those variables have a special reason to be there. Moon VOC is there for a reason.

--

On the subject of invalid charts, I believe that the only invalid charts are those that concern with questions asked more than one time

What it seems most annoying here is that people believe that you can ask multiple times, or that horary charts only lasts for a certain period of time.

A lot of people don't understand the concept that you can't ask twice.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I think the problem, more often than not, is that most newbies simply don't understand the phrase:"considerations before judgement".

- It means:Things to consider, before pronouncing judgement

- It does not mean: Things to consider before judging the chart.

What it means is that, before giving your delineation on the chart, you should take a look and consider these factors (like Moon VOC, Early ASC, etc) which could get in the way of the final resolution for the chart, or affect the outcome in a particular way.

It does not mean that the chart is invalid. In fact, as tsmall and tik said before, all those variables have a special reason to be there. Moon VOC is there for a reason.

--

On the subject of invalid charts, I believe that the only invalid charts are those that concern with questions asked more than one time

What it seems most annoying here is that people believe that you can ask multiple times, or that horary charts only lasts for a certain period of time.

A lot of people don't understand the concept that you can't ask twice.

Not only do a lot of people get that you can't ask twice (or 16 times) but what really, really, REALLY irks me are those who use the forum as a free astrology site. I have to wonder what exalted planets they have, because so often we don't get an attempt to read the chart that we can teach to, but rather a demand for an answer, and if no answer is forthcoming then "we" get blamed for the fallout. Grrrrrrr.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I'd like to present a different take on all this. In doing so, I truly defer to the really good horary astrologers and traditionalists.

Why the sarcasm, tsmall and Tikana? If this is a learning forum, then let's teach and learn, not put others down.

The first horary astrology books I picked up were Karen Hamaker-Zondag's and Olivia Barclay's. She (in case some are unfamiliar with her) was the woman who rescued Lilly's horary astrology from the modern woo-woo astrology gutter.

Barclay has a list of cautions, if not strictures against judgement. These she got from Lilly. Later, other astrologers went through Lilly's case studies and found that he ignored a bunch of his own cautions and strictures, which subsequently led to their demise. However, Barclay was a major teacher of traditional horary in Britain, and from what I can gather, she had a lot of success in horoscope reading. Her Horary Astrology Rediscovered is well worth a read.

Then will the real traditional astrologers please stand up? I'm traveling now and don't have my books and notes with me, but some of you may have copies of Dunn's extensive compendium on traditional horary astrologers, Horary Astrology Re-examined.

Some of those medieval astrologers said, do not read a chart with an early or late degree rising, because it indicates that the querent is pulling your leg, and is not serious about the question. I think it was Lilly (but check Dunn on this) said that the reason to discard a chart if Saturn is in the 7th or rules the 7th is because the 7th rules the astrologer. Saturn indicates that the client will not like the answer. All of these cautions were designed to protect the professional astrologers' reputations. Since professional astrologers of the past had to guard their reputations against all of the real quacks and charlatans afoot, this was a serious consideration.

It's fine to dismiss these cautions or strictures nowadays, as a group of anonymous amateurs with no "skin in the game" read charts for people, but it is helpful to consider the important reasons why the cautions were there in the first place.

And is the alternative that any and all charts are fit to be read? Even if the querent is making a joke of the question, lying, or liable to become verbally abusive if you give an answer she doesn't want?
 

waybread

Well-known member
I might add that I've been fortunate to learn a bunch of horary astrology from "Paul," a former member here, member of Astrodienst, horary moderator at Skyscript, and just a crack horary astrologer. Although he's not here (and can't come back) to point out my errors if I misrepresent him, I will say that I asked him a number of questions about difficult charts that I attempted to read.

Paul's answer to many of my questions was that a chart should tell a story relevant to the querent's question. To me this means that despite the precision of symbols on a chart and the rules 'n' regs for reading them, at some level reading a horoscope is a subjective art. This precisely means that at some point, you may need to make a judgement call, or rely on your intuition. At some point, if the chart does not tell a story remotely relevant to the question, you might indeed "discard" (decline to answer) it.

My evidence that intuition and subjectivity are highly important comes from trying to work through the examples in the above-mentioned books, plus J. Lee Lehman, The Martial Art of Horary Astrology. In their case studies, they follow through with the actual outcomes. While I could follow the authors' objective symbol analyses up to a point, there often seemed to me to be a leap, in which their mental synapses made connections that I just could not read transparently off the chart. While this difficulty might merely reflect my own shortcomings, it also seems to me that much transpires for the experts in somehow reading between the symbols.

I think this information is confidential so I will not name several really fine astrologers with whom I have communicated who admitted to having psychic abilities. Deborah Houlding, owner of Skyscript (and author of its horary primer) was once a professional psychic.

I have no psychic abilities, but when I have been aware of a forum poster who has asked a question more than once, sometimes there was something "off" about the repeat chart. Ideally, this is what some of those cautions/considerations/strictures should be telling us.

So I think we need to be careful in assuming we know what goes on during a horary reading.

I also think that astrology gives us a rare and precious privilege to look into the soul of another human being, or of a moment in time. Although I have been flippant on occasion with people whose charts I've read, I am not proud of myself for those times, and try to do better with the next readings. Of course, we should be straight with people, and sometimes "tough love" is called for. But we dare not forget how sacred horary astrology was to Lilly and his predecessors in our craft.

Moreover, I had difficult times in my life when I had no knowledge of astrology, and when I would have so deeply appreciated an astrologer taking the time to read a chart for me without expecting I was trying to learn astrology from the process. We all start out as newbies. Most of us have painful times in our lives when we're groping for answers.

So some compassion is called for.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Barclay has a list of cautions, if not strictures against judgement. These she got from Lilly. Later, other astrologers went through Lilly's case studies and found that he ignored a bunch of his own cautions and strictures, which subsequently led to their demise. However, Barclay was a major teacher of traditional horary in Britain, and from what I can gather, she had a lot of success in horoscope reading. Her Horary Astrology Rediscovered is well worth a read.

Then will the real traditional astrologers please stand up? I'm traveling now and don't have my books and notes with me, but some of you may have copies of Dunn's extensive compendium on traditional horary astrologers, Horary Astrology Re-examined.

Some of those medieval astrologers said, do not read a chart with an early or late degree rising, because it indicates that the querent is pulling your leg, and is not serious about the question. I think it was Lilly (but check Dunn on this) said that the reason to discard a chart if Saturn is in the 7th or rules the 7th is because the 7th rules the astrologer. Saturn indicates that the client will not like the answer. All of these cautions were designed to protect the professional astrologers' reputations. Since professional astrologers of the past had to guard their reputations against all of the real quacks and charlatans afoot, this was a serious consideration.

It's fine to dismiss these cautions or strictures nowadays, as a group of anonymous amateurs with no "skin in the game" read charts for people, but it is helpful to consider the important reasons why the cautions were there in the first place.

I sort of agree with that.

The VOC Moon is the perfect example. Usually it represents that the querent hasn't really planned on setting things in motion to bring the events of the chart together.

It many situations (though not all) the chart is nothing more than a hypothetical situation the querent is merely curious about. That is why I believe the astrologers from the past refused to give judgement on such charts. As an example, it would be pointless to predict a marriage to a male querent, if he isn't even planning to pop the question in the first place.

However, I do believe in what tsmall wrote, that these considerations do take part in the judgement, because they reflect part of the situation that gives origin to the question and thus can be included in the judgement.

I suppose that also, many people "try" astrology without really believing in it. This creates a lot of "test" questions...

Lets also add that, hundreds of years ago Astrology consultations were more "public" in way. Today in the internet age, everything is annonymous and delineations are usually done through e-mail or forums. Certainly back then people had to meet with the astrologer face to face, and were probably more inclined to keep some information regarding the situation private (like affairs/cheating/scandals/pregnancies/etc).
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Why the sarcasm, tsmall and Tikana?
If this is a learning forum, then let's teach and learn, not put others down.
this is a rant thread :smile:
so lets not put others down who rant on a rant thread
by the way
that's a rant

Of course, we should be straight with people, and sometimes "tough love" is called for.
But we dare not forget how sacred horary astrology was to Lilly and his predecessors in our craft.

Moreover, I had difficult times in my life when I had no knowledge of astrology,
and when I would have so deeply appreciated an astrologer taking the time to read a chart for me
without expecting I was trying to learn astrology from the process.
We all start out as newbies.
Most of us have painful times in our lives when we're groping for answers.

So some compassion is called for.
Compassion is impartial :smile:

and so
lets extend compassion to unpaid horary amateurs on our forum
who while give freely of their time
to support and help those having difficult times in life

yet are then taken for granted
and not only offered no gratitude for valuable time spent
but are then criticised for their freely provided contribution

Not only do a lot of people get that you can't ask twice (or 16 times)
but what really, really, REALLY irks me are those who use the forum as a free astrology site.
I have to wonder what exalted planets they have, because so often we don't get an attempt to read the chart that we can teach to,
but rather a demand for an answer, and if no answer is forthcoming then "we" get blamed for the fallout. Grrrrrrr.
well said tsmall
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I suppose that also, many people "try" astrology
without really believing in it.
This creates a lot of "test" questions...
Exactly
many post horary questions simply from curiosity

and furthermore
are disinclined to read, study, learn and practice
but simply want a free reading
which is not even valued

few update
many continually ask repeatedly the same question differently phrased
despite being informed of the horary rules

hence for those giving their time for free
not much incentive :smile:
ps
I'm ranting on the horary rant thread
 

Kitchy

Banned
[deleted reply to off topic comments-moderator]

[/SIZE][/I]What I love is when three different horarists come to the same conclusion by different means - outcomes align. I hate the bickering of the trad's about not using modern planets. There are ******* hybrid folks, like me, who look at the chart from both traditional and modern and are belittled. That doesn't stop me, but it *****.

Why can't horarists all agree on one basic matter - it is a birthchart that can be read with same outcomes, even though some people use different methods. What's wrong with gestalt of that?

Seems to me, when astrologers agree on the outcomes, why the bickering?

We've all read charts and got different outcomes than actually occurred using only traditional means. Why is it considered so blasphemhous to consider the moderns? Every planet tells a story in horary, even if you don't acknowledge it.

note: the words b-a-s-t-a-r-d and s-u-c-k-s were censored ******* & ***** , so if those words are offensive in their placement, feel free to replace with mongrel and stinks.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I'm down with the Jews and the Serbs & Tikana & Waybread - (down, as in - got 'yer back ladies) - and it hurts to watch you two go at it, even though it's always the best mixed mental arts match that I could ever hope to see.

(this is when Tikana & Waybread, reading my reply, simultaneously yell,"Oh, shut Up, Kitchy!" )



What I love is when three different horarists come to the same conclusion by different means - outcomes align. I hate the bickering of the trad's about not using modern planets. There are ******* hybrid folks, like me, who look at the chart from both traditional and modern and are belittled. That doesn't stop me, but it *****.

Why can't horarists all agree on one basic matter - it is a birthchart that can be read with same outcomes, even though some people use different methods. What's wrong with gestalt of that?

Seems to me, when astrologers agree on the outcomes, why the bickering?

We've all read charts and got different outcomes than actually occurred using only traditional means. Why is it considered so blasphemhous to consider the moderns? Every planet tells a story in horary, even if you don't acknowledge it.

note: the words b-a-s-t-a-r-d and s-u-c-k-s were censored ******* & ***** , so if those words are offensive in their placement, feel free to replace with mongrel and stinks.
Clearly then
it would seem
that when one posts an horary analysis using SOLELY traditional methodology
that's grounds for labelling it a form of "bickering"/"an attack" on moderns


astrology is a broad field
and includes Sidereal, Tropical, Ancient, Modern, Traditional, Vedic, Chinese and so on
it is quite simply not an attack to use one's own methodology :smile:
 

Kitchy

Banned
No Jupiter -

I am speaking along lines of when a modern consideration is rebuked or belittled for an horary astrologer's use of moderns - in spite of agreed outcomes of the question.

As I understand it, this is a rant zone, from the origin of post - It is not a place to argue or disagree or create rancor amid one another. Twisting of words by others is very good at creating that rancor.

By the way - when is the last time you read an horary chart?
 

tikana

Well-known member
No Jupiter -

I am speaking along lines of when a modern consideration is rebuked or belittled for an horary astrologer's use of moderns - in spite of agreed outcomes of the question.

As I understand it, this is a rant zone, from the origin of post - It is not a place to argue or disagree or create rancor amid one another. Twisting of words by others is very good at creating that rancor.

By the way - when is the last time you read an horary chart?


well...Kitchy
the thing is with modern horary it is not only including post saturn planets but also considering minor aspect like semisextile.

all roads lead to rome.

T
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
No Jupiter -

I am speaking along lines of
when a modern consideration
is rebuked or belittled for an horary astrologer's use of moderns
- in spite of agreed outcomes of the question.
Any Traditionalist is entitled to state their opinion
without being accused of allegedly "belittling" or "rebuking"

As I understand it, this is a rant zone, from the origin of post
- It is not a place to argue or disagree or create rancor amid one another.
To be realistic
a rant thread/zone
is very likely to be a place for lively disagreemnet

and
if that disagreement is then considered as "creating rancour"
then clearly
that is a personal perspective

anyone who shys away from lively disagreement
is best advised to find a thread without it
Twisting of words by others is very good at creating that rancor.

By the way - when is the last time you read an horary chart?
Read my posts :smile:
 
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