waybread
Well-known member
Don't you think it's a bit of both?
The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart
- Thread starter HoldOrFold
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Don't you think it's a bit of both?
Astrology was synonymous with fate in the Hellenistic period. When the early Church Fathers wrote texts against fate, almost all of their texts are an attack on astrology. Chris Brennan explains that as well in his book. If everything occurs through free will, then astrology is useless.
Senecar
Well-known member
The two are utterly opposite to each other, if you see one is working, then logically cannot accept the other.
It has to be one or the other.
Senecar
Well-known member
Yes, this is logically correct. But if fate is all we have, why do we bother making effort for anything?
If fate is what governs the universe, there will be a lot of problems and questions in the world. For example, is it then justified to punish criminals? Because fate made them to commit crimes, surely then it is not their fault. It is fault of the fate?
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Let me quote myself from this thread.
The Stoic were often asked this question. The person of his will is committing the crime, even if everything operates through fate. The Stoics never proposed the type of Russian fatalism that Nietzsche describes. Determinism does not mean everyone becomes an idiot or that he can't or should not to do anything. It is the acceptance of natural law and logos. You still have ethics and reason.
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The main question is:
Does astrology work?
If the answer is yes, then there can be no free will. An iota of free will would render astrology useless.
Many recent discoveries in biology underscore the simple fact that our choices sre dictated by biological factors. We have no free will.
I love being alive. Even if I'm a puppet, I got a free ticket to The Greatest Show On Earth
Does astrology work?
If the answer is yes, then there can be no free will. An iota of free will would render astrology useless.
Many recent discoveries in biology underscore the simple fact that our choices sre dictated by biological factors. We have no free will.
I love being alive. Even if I'm a puppet, I got a free ticket to The Greatest Show On Earth
I decide to cut my one of my nails under an angle of 47 degrees. If that is not predetermined via the ambient and its relation with the sublunar realm or the particular environment, would you say that astrology is useless? Ptolemy did not think so.
david starling
Well-known member
What about, "Astrology doesn't compel, it impels"? The requirements of society, environment, and tradition can all interfere with much of what the Charts tell us about ourselves as individuals.
Society, environment and traditions are under the control of universal, although to some degree the individual also makes a difference (genethlialogy) as do events (katarchic) astrology.
Senecar
Well-known member
If one's will can over-rides fate, then it is no longer fate. Fate means nothing can change it.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
david starling
Well-known member
Death is everyone's ultimate "Fate"
Define "Death".
I did not say contrawise, just stated that the acceptance of fate does not negate the existence of gods and laws, even if those too are agents of fate.
''The soul of man does violence to itself, first of all, when it becomes an abscess and, as it were, a tumour on the universe, so far as it can. For to be vexed at anything which happens is a separation of ourselves from nature, in some part of which the natures of all other things are contained. In the next place, the soul does violence to itself when it turns away from any man, or even moves towards him with the intention of injuring, such as are the souls of those who are angry. In the third place, the soul does violence to itself when it is overpowered by pleasure or by pain. Fourthly, when it plays a part, and does or says anything insincerely and untruly. Fifthly, when it allows any act of its own and any movement to be without an aim, and does anything thoughtlessly and without considering what it is, it being right that even the smallest things be done with reference to an end; and the end of rational animals is to follow the reason and the law of the most ancient city and polity.'' - Aurelius, M., & Long, G. (1910). The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.2.two.html
Compatibilism is necessary for making law and philosophy.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Define "define"
Senecar
Well-known member
Death is everyone's ultimate "Fate"
But please remember, people don't ask whether they will die in the end. They ask, when and how death will come to certain individual.
Death itself is not fate, but end of every life = event.
When and how death will come is fate.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
everyone who has ever lived has died eventually
eventual death is inevitable hence "Fate"
i.e.
those now alive
eventually won't be alive
Senecar
Well-known member
everyone who has ever lived has died eventually
eventual death is inevitable hence "Fate"
i.e.
those now alive
eventually won't be alive
That's not fate. That is just a property of life.
Fate is set path for an individual.
It will have detailed information on how and when event will unfold.
HoldOrFold
Well-known member
Yes, there's free will. Chart configurations have high end and low end manifestations of the same chart patterns. Astrology generally is the study of probabilities. Through free will and lucid moments in life you can select from a range of probabilities and leverage your chart into higher end manifestations.
This is seen in the pentagram, the 4 points are under the 5th pointing upwards, denoting spirit/akasha over matter/the 4 elements. Spirit, or consciousness, is related to free will. Pure determinism is when the elements and matter reign over spirit, i.e. the inverted pentagram. I believe that there is a significant portion of humanity that are effectively automatons though, without spirit. They would be completely at the mercy of genetics, cultural influences, astrological, elemental influences etc. without any free-will.
If you study hermeticism, like Franz Bardon's work, you can read about becoming a master over the elements instead of being mastered by them. There are practices which can increase your free-will, such as meditation. It increases your consciousness and detaches you from your various egoic structures which run your life. From that space you are able to make more original anomalous actions and manifest situations which aren't rigidly deterministic.
This is seen in the pentagram, the 4 points are under the 5th pointing upwards, denoting spirit/akasha over matter/the 4 elements. Spirit, or consciousness, is related to free will. Pure determinism is when the elements and matter reign over spirit, i.e. the inverted pentagram. I believe that there is a significant portion of humanity that are effectively automatons though, without spirit. They would be completely at the mercy of genetics, cultural influences, astrological, elemental influences etc. without any free-will.
If you study hermeticism, like Franz Bardon's work, you can read about becoming a master over the elements instead of being mastered by them. There are practices which can increase your free-will, such as meditation. It increases your consciousness and detaches you from your various egoic structures which run your life. From that space you are able to make more original anomalous actions and manifest situations which aren't rigidly deterministic.
Uhm, the downward pentagram is not the symbol of Stoicism, but I see the connection there with the initial letter. I quoted Marcus Aurelius, I don't get the feeling from his philosophy or biography that he was the neurospaston you describe.
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