Victimhood: what and why?

applesandlilacs

Well-known member
Me personally I always consider the term "victimhood" as something more of a manipulative tool used by narcissistic personality types to justify their behavior towards others.

That being said I did play this card in my early twenties and I don't necessarily consider myself to be a narcissist though I do have an ego like all people. Mine stemmed from the fact that I was annoyed that I as an adult had to fix the s*** that other people broke in my life that I had nothing to do with. And to say I was livid could be an understatement.

I used to always say "we're the only species on this planet that has to spend 60 years getting over our first 18."

I also think if people haven't been taught good coping mechanisms in life and they don't know how to self-soothe, victimhood is kind of like a way of trying to do that for themselves. Since you need this resolution, but you don't know how to facilitate it, so this is the closest you get to it.

Some people don't realize they're not drowning. They literally think they're drowning, but it's just that nobody has ever told them just to stand up. That they're really only in two feet of water. They don't have "bigger picture" perspective. The question is in the long run do they want perspective?, do they want to have a better life?, do they think that they're capable of having a better life?, do they think they're worthy of having a better life?

I was drawn to astrology because I liked the idea of having a label to something I was feeling, it made it tangible for me. I felt more in control. Maybe, that is another concept to consider feeling powerless.

As for the natal chart I would say hard aspects from Saturn, Neptune, or Pluto to the Sun, Moon, or Chiron (house placement), maybe even Mercury since that is your information relay.

I was think what if someone comes off like a "victim", but doesn't feel that way, would that be planets in the first house in hard aspect?

My natal markers: Moon conjuncts Saturn(♍,11th) squares Neptune (♐,2nd) Mercury(♌,10th) squares Chiron-r(♉,7th).
 

Flapjacks

Well-known member
There is a distinction between someone whom feels a victim but uses that to empower themselves or others, and someone whom is paralyzed by it. Why the paralysis happens, I think, is largely due to a lack of faith in oneself to enact change (and, if we are being honest, that might not be an erroneous conclusion).

I think of that experiment with the dogs and learned helplessness, where the dogs would not leave a cage even when the opportunity presented itself. Experimentally, those dogs could be fully aware that their fate was not in their own hands (I mean, paws), whether experimenters opened the door or not. We cannot know their consciousness, and there lies the flaw of the experiment. It is not a defect to recognize your own power or lack of it. One could see those dogs as broad minded, knowing the cage was controlled by the humans, in which case rejecting the situation entirely is not irrational or helpless. They imposed limitation on themselves only according to mere observation of not participating in the game, as interpreted by their oppressors.

We are all going to experience happiness or sorrow or whatever of the many states of consciousness we can possibly be in at any given moment. Surrendering to the experience of where you are is necessary in order to move into another state. Astrology is a path to validation and explanations for the state you are in, and so it can be a part of that process.

Personally: I know a woman whom is the martyr type, that always feels she is being wronged, no matter the intentions of her supposed aggressors. She is manipulative and secretive, but tries to come off as guileless. It baffled me and made me uncomfortable around her.

Then she told me a story from when she was a teenager. She said she dated a boy in high school for a year or so, and then found out he was molesting her little sister, and had been for months. She said she had never stopped feeling guilty - that she brought someone like that into her sister's life, and that she couldn't see what was happening or who this guy really was.

I suddenly understood that this woman did not trust her own judgement, and so to be safe she made everyone a potential threat. She has repeated experiences to reinforce the insecurity and expectation of betrayal. She seems to believe she doesn't deserve consideration, support, to be heard, or to be loved. She martyrs herself for all this guilt, but is still angry and distrustful at the same time, making herself a constant victim.

It became clear that in order to be comfortable, and to quell her paranoia, she required validation for her perceptions. She lights up when someone agrees with her, like she never expects it to happen. Every bit of support counts. So, that is what I do. If I agree with her, I am sure to let her know. I make sure she knows her input and ideas and views are valuable to me (because they are). I have seen people behave the opposite with her, berate and belittle, and it is so destructive - she cries and cannot handle it. It is upsetting.

I find that many people are looking for validation concerning their experience. Consistent, but honest, validation can help a person come to terms with their feelings of being wronged. You cannot really help anyone if you hold onto expectations about how they should act and feel (as with the dogs, whom "should" know they can leave the cage if it is open). Healing and coming to terms with yourself and your situation can be a slow process.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Some good wisdom in your post, applesandlilacs.

I used to always say "we're the only species on this planet that has to spend 60 years getting over our first 18."

I wasn't sure "victim" was the best word, given that a critic could apply it pejoratively (as in, "Stop playing the victim card!" or that a person who was genuinely hurting could take it as such. However, this potential to weaponize the word "victim" by either party could occur with any synonyms for victim, such as self-pity, victim or martyr complex, suffering, scapegoat, and so on. Not to mention our manipulative terms like "guilt trip."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutory_delusion

The flip side is for the aggrieved person to charge the seemingly unsympathetic person with other weaponized terms like narcissist, Pollyanna, insensitive, and so on. We could imagine that a partner who is tired of listening to a lot of whining and complaining (notably about him and his personal shortcomings) does not have to be a diagnosed narcissist to want to tune out the unhappy GF.

Then gaslighting is an interesting concept. If I maintain a certain position, coming from my reality-grounding, and someone else denies my truth-claims and says, "No, this isn't what really happened," or "This isn't what life is like," is that person trying to sneakily undercut me (gaslighting) or does s/he simply have a legitimate disagreement and view of reality that I'm unwilling to entertain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

As you point out, control issues could easily be involved, on both sides.

I have to stress that I didn't begin this thread to offend anybody, or to self-justify. It's regretable that ShadowStriker and I had a recent interaction that ended negatively, but honestly, my questions about victimhood and horoscope readings had been cooking along in my mind for some time previously.

I should also mention that I have ample episodes from my own life that would objectively situate me as a victim, ranging from what I, in hindsight, believe to have been child abuse to domineering job supervisors who seemingly set out to destroy my career. (I received a settlement from a human rights complaint that I filed, in support of the latter claim.) I know what it's like to be married to an abusive problem drinker.

It's not like I'm running around like Pollyanna, pasting a happy face on my own life experience. I'm not saying that others can or even should buck up and get over their unhappiness, whatever it might be.

It's more that, if people who request a reading on this forum actually are unwilling to even consider improving their lot through others' insights or suggestions, can we really do very much, other than offering sympathy?

Or even less effectively, buying into someone's self-defeating narrative? It just perplexes me when people are unhappy about themselves, and have adopted a really negative astrological reading to explain-- but not improve-- their lot.

I've played the victim at times in my life. I've felt in charge at times in my life. I just think that feeling in charge of one's life works a lot better. When that's possible.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Thanks, Frisiangal. Can you link that article?

I did a search for 'Victim and Persecutor' and clicked on a 3-page replies from a thread sometime in 2010.
Went on to look for further threads with same keywords, and couldn't get back to first one!! Have tried to find it again but I think I must have overworked the Astro.com search engine. It now says nothing found!
You may have better luck.

The article I have was put together for me by a former member. I don't know how and where she got it all from.

Neptune is one slippery fish. Liz Greene, in her book on Neptune, said it has to do with a longing to merge with the divine, with an attendant self- or ego-annihilation in the process
.

She says a lot more in that book.

Neptune doesn't show us what is (that's Saturn) but what might have been, might be, could be.

I disagree. Neptune is a physical planet. The possibilities of its functional characteristics are therefore visible for all to see........but if an individual chooses not to see them????
The coulda's, woulda's, shoulda's, might be's images, can fall under Neptune's faith in what is possible. When they aren't and/or can never physically exist/occur, they are more to be found in Black Moon Lilith's realm.:wink:

Friesiangal, I hope you will say more about your take on medical astrology, in which a physical symptom may be a manifestation of a troubled inner state

Holistic astrology works from the practise that spirit-mind-feelings-body should work in unison. If one part is out of synch., the occuring imbalance can find an outlet through a physical dis-order or dis-ease.

I think that 10 years of postings in the Medical Astrology section might offer co-incidental explanations of occurances during life, although there is no logical answer for the 'why' of inherent disorders from birth. I have not studied the astrology of past life/reincarnation/karma theories which cannot be physically proven to correlate with discomforts. It's this life that counts.

As previously mentioned, Neptune is strongly associated with anything viral, parasitical, toxic, alien to the total human organism that can invade, weaken, poison, and disintegrate its immune system. It precedes the final stage of organic destruction of Pluto. It's said that Neptune symptoms are difficult to find and diagnose; yet they ARE there. A reason that allowing renovative change (Uranus) to occur that alters all outdated patterns (Saturn....limit of physical body.....skin?) BEFORE they get under the skin, can keep sickness at bay.
Aaaah; a Neptunian music of the future pipe dream?:smile:
 

InfoOverload2

Well-known member
Some good wisdom in your post, applesandlilacs.



I wasn't sure "victim" was the best word, given that a critic could apply it pejoratively (as in, "Stop playing the victim card!" or that a person who was genuinely hurting could take it as such. However, this potential to weaponize the word "victim" by either party could occur with any synonyms for victim, such as self-pity, victim or martyr complex, suffering, scapegoat, and so on. Not to mention our manipulative terms like "guilt trip."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutory_delusion

The flip side is for the aggrieved person to charge the seemingly unsympathetic person with other weaponized terms like narcissist, Pollyanna, insensitive, and so on. We could imagine that a partner who is tired of listening to a lot of whining and complaining (notably about him and his personal shortcomings) does not have to be a diagnosed narcissist to want to tune out the unhappy GF.

Then gaslighting is an interesting concept. If I maintain a certain position, coming from my reality-grounding, and someone else denies my truth-claims and says, "No, this isn't what really happened," or "This isn't what life is like," is that person trying to sneakily undercut me (gaslighting) or does s/he simply have a legitimate disagreement and view of reality that I'm unwilling to entertain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

As you point out, control issues could easily be involved, on both sides.

I have to stress that I didn't begin this thread to offend anybody, or to self-justify. It's regretable that ShadowStriker and I had a recent interaction that ended negatively, but honestly, my questions about victimhood and horoscope readings had been cooking along in my mind for some time previously.

I should also mention that I have ample episodes from my own life that would objectively situate me as a victim, ranging from what I, in hindsight, believe to have been child abuse to domineering job supervisors who seemingly set out to destroy my career. (I received a settlement from a human rights complaint that I filed, in support of the latter claim.) I know what it's like to be married to an abusive problem drinker.

It's not like I'm running around like Pollyanna, pasting a happy face on my own life experience. I'm not saying that others can or even should buck up and get over their unhappiness, whatever it might be.

It's more that, if people who request a reading on this forum actually are unwilling to even consider improving their lot through others' insights or suggestions, can we really do very much, other than offering sympathy?

Or even less effectively, buying into someone's self-defeating narrative? It just perplexes me when people are unhappy about themselves, and have adopted a really negative astrological reading to explain-- but not improve-- their lot.

I've played the victim at times in my life. I've felt in charge at times in my life. I just think that feeling in charge of one's life works a lot better. When that's possible.

I think the worst thing someone can do is to oppose someone's internal struggle.

Acknowledge their pain, acknowledge that their persona and life was
to an extent predetermined. And that if they are experiencing severe hardships it means that they are here to slay giants.

Think about it: If you're in a fight - do you want to hear "Eye of The Tiger" or "Let me explain what you can do to fix yourself and stop complaining".

When I see someone suffering, now I just know that their soul's journey is a tough one. And they haven't come to terms with "the weight of choice". My choices that I struggle with, aren't yours, or hers, etc. So you can go through life making your easy choices and ignoring the ones that truly lead to betterment.

"Why me" - when someone asks this they should be told that they are suffering because they are learning. It is a test. How are you gonna perform?

How far in your life do you want to go? Do you have what it takes to push past your pain? Do you have what it takes to acknowledge that the space you exist in at this very moment is horrible? Can you keep searching? Can you choose to act on your awareness of struggle?
Even if people die without finding their peace and contentment in this life, their soul will learn lessons.

It is hard to transform. There is a compulsive nature to pain, and victimhood. It's safe there, it's void of change. & change is directly linked to awareness. Then comes the weight of choice, internally. It doesn't work if the person hears it from you or me. The technique of interpreting a natal chart or therapy, should be trying to raise awareness.
 

sadge

Well-known member
Hi folks-- so, I'm not going to express myself well or be able to give this topic the sensitivity it deserves, but.... how do you explain victimhood (def: a person who has been harmed or injured by another or external event, *type A and type B) in a chart?

Mostly people come to an astrology forum because they're unhappy or mightily bothered by something. We don't see OPs stating, "I'm really popular, happily married, and rich: how do you explain that?"

Usually we see people who are truly lonely, upset at how their lives have gone, financially broke, and so on. Sometimes their conditions are only temporary, sometimes they seem to be life-long. In reading horoscopes, our commitment is to be helpful to them: but sometimes this seems impossible.

*Type A: People who have a strong, objective case for being a victim: an abused child, a war or famine refugee, a persecuted religious minority.

*Type B. People who feel victimized by events that happen to a majority of people in one way or another: a bad break-up with a lover, few friends, a feud with a family member, unemployment, low self-esteem.

These categories are not entirely discrete: sometimes people whom I would classify as objectively victimized have a positive can-do attitude towards life, sometimes turning their personal tragedy into a positive commitment to help others in a similar situation. Sometimes a lonely person seems deeply committed to sustaining an unhappy isolation vs. trying to improve her situation.

Sometimes "victims" simply want us to tell them when the stars will hand them a desirable mate, clear out their debts, or hand them a job. Sometimes with no thoughts that we can be the authors of our own misfortunes, in which case, there's more inner work to be done. They don't want an astrological truth that might suggest there's no job or mate in sight.

I stress that people with a mental health condition, like clinical depression, are kind of a special case. They cannot "think" themselves happy, but oftentimes they can mitigate their condition with medication, therapy, or self-help activities like yoga. Also, an addict by definition cannot "think" himself out of an addiction.

What is your take on the problem? Do some people choose to understand themselves as victims rather than taking positive steps toward to improve their lives in ways consistent with their horoscopes? If so, are they actually an opening for astrological advice on how to improve their situation? If so, how would you express your advice such that the person is open to your horoscope reading?

What would be the horoscope placements for self-defined victims, if any?

Neptune? Chiron? Saturn?

Your thoughts?



You're complicating something to the point that you're missing the most obvious issue here:

Drop your judgmental lens. That's it.

Understand a chart from the perspective of the native. There's a life story in there, and you don't have the right to judge them, period. You're suggesting that you know whether someone is a real victim or not, according to your own criteria, what you see on the surface. People go much deeper than that, but only if you take the time to find it.

Billions of victims suffer in silent ways all over the world. Focus on what matters, not how you think they might s*ck.
 

waybread

Well-known member
There is a distinction between someone whom feels a victim but uses that to empower themselves or others, and someone whom is paralyzed by it. Why the paralysis happens, I think, is largely due to a lack of faith in oneself to enact change (and, if we are being honest, that might not be an erroneous conclusion).

....
We are all going to experience happiness or sorrow or whatever of the many states of consciousness we can possibly be in at any given moment. Surrendering to the experience of where you are is necessary in order to move into another state. Astrology is a path to validation and explanations for the state you a
re in, and so it can be a part of that process......

.....I find that many people are looking for validation concerning their experience. Consistent, but honest, validation can help a person come to terms with their feelings of being wronged. You cannot really help anyone if you hold onto expectations about how they should act and feel.... Healing and coming to terms with yourself and your situation can be a slow process.

Just beautiful. Thanks.

Sadge, I have to say that, as a criticism, (vs. as a simple sharing of one's own experience) "Don't be so judgmental" is pretty ironic, given that your comment itself is highly judgmental. Declaring judging others to be wrong, or at least unproductive, is a judgmental comment when applied to another person. Surely you see this.

I totally agree with you that we need to try to read a chart from the person's own perpsective. Sometimes this goes better than at other times, and for a variety of reasons.

But Sadge, given your judgmental approach to my OP (or to the person you think I am) I have to say that I've read hundreds of charts for people, normally to good effect. I don't think people s*ck: your words, not mine. Generally I average 3 or 4 PM requests for chart readings per month, and many more thanks from people on the threads (here and at Astrodienst) who think I did right by them. Obviously there are good times and bad times to even read a horoscope.

But this result obviously isn't good enough when somebody's hurting, and hoping that an astrological reading will help them in some way-- yet nothing in their lives opens up or gives a glimpse of possibilities as a result, despite your or my interactions with them.

I think I was lucky to have read at a very early stage in my astrological studies the primer by Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. Basically he sees people as having a fair bit of control as to how they interpret their charts and lives. Essentially he says that we can choose empowering or disempowering interpretations of our horoscope placements. Planets can be "teachers" or "tricksters." He's not notably judgmental about it, but treats the disempowering interpretations with a lot of compassion.

Are you familiar with Forrest's book?
 

waybread

Well-known member
InfoOverload2, well, I sure can't relate to "Eye of the Tiger!" I'm not out there to street-fight with anybody. So I guess I'd opt for viewing astrology's highest use is a tool for self-awareness; and ideally, self-improvement.

This song more resonates for me during tough times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_sk3EQPX1U

I don't know how metaphysical you intended your post to be, but I understand it at a highly metaphysical level. At one point in my life I read and was highly impressed by the Jane Roberts Seth books. "Seth" never discussed astrology so far as I recall, but he did say that souls choose the circumstances of their incarnations, and generally, the people with whom they will reincarnate with. He doesn't at all take a past lives/bad lives heavy karma approach. Rather, souls choose the circumstances most conducive to their personal growth and creativity. Souls may choose difficult lives to further particular growth trajectories. But any life, even a child who dies at birth, has a learning experience, according to Roberts/Seth.

To me, it was just a short hop from this view of life to think that if souls choose the circumstances of their birth, then there is a horoscope for it.

Sometimes when I see a really difficult chart, I think of that person as being a spiritual athlete, who wanted an extra-challenging lifetime. But of course, if the person hasn't asked for a metaphysical reading, I'm loathe to foist it on them. I mean, I think that the person wants to know when he's getting a job offer, not necessarily that he's engaged in an existential struggle. But I absolutely do take your point.

Can you link some sample of your approach to horoscope reading when the person is deeply unhappy and feels unable to progress? It would be instructive to see how you handle it.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

My views are rather contrary to some or perhaps even most today seem to think about how "life happens", and I will not try to preach my views to anyone, but I will take this chance to elucidate them in my responses here.
Let me also say that I have gathered quite a bit of intrinsic and extrinsic proof to stick to how I believe "life happens", at least for now.
...Yes. That's what all people who come on this forum believe. And I find it so annoying.

"When will I get married?"

I don't know; maybe when you propose to the person you love? You don't need a planet transit or need to wait for your spouse to make the move.
Just to be fair, when someone asks "when will I get married", it is not because they haven't had the courage to 'propose' yet, but because they do not have anyone there to propose to yet, and think that at 27, they are the only ones (which is the annoying part sometimes, but then different cultures and life situations play a role, too). Depending on what the rest of their life is like (in other areas, I mean), they might or might not take their being 27 and lonely too seriously. Either way, they do take themselves to be victims. And, that is why they look to astrology and astrologers/ us astrology-aspirants for help.

Some perhaps just even want to simply be heard and get a response back. It is like having a conversation with someone next to you. Only here it is virtual, but at least someone out there (here) is listening to you. Loneliness is very 'consuming'.

"When will I get rich, get a girlfriend, etc..."

When you decide to.
Not really because life is not as simple as "when you decide to" and you get that. No, not even when you work for it day and night. Else we would all be able to turn all our dreams into reality. Sometimes you don't get what you want at all. Now, "getting rich" is a foolish example to use, since how does one define "rich", but there are other more concrete examples like: will we be able to save our home by paying off the mortgage? Might actually not happen, simply because you desire it to, and despite your working your behind off. Life happens, even if it sounds fatalistic.

But free will is always a thing.
Of course, it is, or there would be no reason to get out of bed in the morning. However, "free will is a thing" within certain confines only, and that because of various factors. Some I will mention, which might make sense to those believing in absolute free will. For instance: man is a social animal, lives in a society made up of people and circumstances and events, so those serve as confines. One's own background and the opportunities available to one in life also are certain other confines.

Other factors, which I believe in, don't often make sense to those that believe in absolute free will. Those I will not get into here.

Transits are like "markers" for victim periods of your life I guess.
Everything is for you the way you (want to) understand it to be or the way you accept it to be. Basta!

Transits are MUCH more than just "markers for victim periods" and Astrology is capable of MUCH more than just being able to talk about one's character or personality traits. Of course, that only in the hands of a good, experienced Astrologer and one that has an open mind that goes beyond just absolution of free will and everything else being absolution in terms of fatalism.

What about the positive quality of Pluto? Like transformation and deep understanding? Did you own that?
How does transformation happen? Isn't it oftentimes through an unhappy event? That is why the outers are taken to be as malefics.
It doesn't really matter if someone is objectively a victim or not. What matters is that they pull themselves out of the victimhood nonsense, or their life will continue to be victimized. There are people who feel victimized for the tiniest of things and live miserably. And then there are those who are real victims, who become anything but a victim.
This, AppLeo, is something I commend you for.
 

Ukpoohbear

Well-known member
I think this topic is hot to touch but I do not think you are being negative on purpose Waybread but working through your own issues. I do not accuse you of not caring about people who you think to be stuck as victims but it is a bit judgemental.

I did notice that you were searching for something in yourself and for this I am saying my observation, that you also did say to another poster

“But here's the hard part. Sometimes being no more than nice to people, and buying into their self-defeating autobiography, doesn't actually give them the help they say they want.”

I think that is all people are doing for you here and we are all capable of missing the point we make to others.

Also, you said

“Obviously I'm not comparing degrees of victimhood amongst people who have experienced war, incest, cancer, rape, and battery.”

You should not compare what you see as less degrees. Itneeds to be less categorised as good and bad victimhood and say that it is more complicated than that because before they were treated like a victim or had a horrible event happen to them, were they ok? And by ok I mean what strengths were they born with and what strengths have they got from others or the material world to help them recover?

You had bad Pluto transits and you said ‘victim doldrums.’ You were able to move pass that and you are asking how come you could do it and others can’t? Maybe you felt pushed out of the doldrums but maybe you also can’t understand why people can’t move out of doldrums like you did?

I have come to the conclusion that victimhood is a negative word and should be used for people who manipulate people around them which is abuse anyway. Everything else is allowed and if someone is judgemental towards that then they have feelings of being a victim too. But I think this is about working through your own ego and not about others problems.
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
I think we are all victims in some way. There is always some area of life, where we are either dissatisfied, or that we are unhappy about, or at least where we feel we could have done things differently. There is always something/some area (past or present) that causes us unhappiness or fear.

On another note, I have to support Waybread on something, which I often also find to be the case. Perhaps I have understood her post differently. I find troubling (sometimes even annoying (-which has more to do with my own nature and mood on that particular day) when I hear someone repeatedly asking things like: will he accept me as his gf or bf or when will I lose my virginity because I am 25 and still don't have a bf or gf or what have you.
I think perhaps this thread is also a subtle nudge to people to wake out of self-pity and live life instead of wasting it away on playing the 'victim' or self-pity.

That said, we should also, due to the impatience or apathy of our own character, avoid judging others (despite their being only 25) because we can never know all the battles they have been fighting in their life.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
"Victimhood culture"
"Race-shaming"
"Gender-shaming"
"Physical appearance-shaming"
"Physical ability-shaming"
"Income level-shaming"
"Intellectual ability-shaming"
"Astrological expertise-shaming"
Etc.
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
Just to be fair, when someone asks "when will I get married", it is not because they haven't had the courage to 'propose' yet, but because they do not have anyone there to propose to yet, and think that at 27, they are the only ones (which is the annoying part sometimes, but then different cultures and life situations play a role, too). Depending on what the rest of their life is like (in other areas, I mean), they might or might not take their being 27 and lonely too seriously. Either way, they do take themselves to be victims. And, that is why they look to astrology and astrologers/ us astrology-aspirants for help.

Well they obviously won't get married if they're alone. You don't need to ask an astrology question. People who are likely to get married are people who don't need to ask a question on it.

They're just people being sad and trying to use astrology, which obviously won't help them, to make their lives feel better.

Some perhaps just even want to simply be heard and get a response back. It is like having a conversation with someone next to you. Only here it is virtual, but at least someone out there (here) is listening to you. Loneliness is very 'consuming'.

Well if people don't care about astrology actually helping them with the silly questions they ask and they just want to be heard, then I guess it doesn't matter.

"Will I be a goat tomorrow?"

Ah, well... you have Neptune transiting your 1st house, so with imagination you can be. Having a Capricorn Rising also makes the likelihood of having goat properties ten fold.

Not really because life is not as simple as "when you decide to" and you get that.

It actually is. Life really is that simple.

No, not even when you work for it day and night. Else we would all be able to turn all our dreams into reality.

A lot of people do create dreams in reality though. Especially in countries with a high concentration of freedom. The people that don't create their dreams just don't try hard enough and are weak.

Sometimes you don't get what you want at all. Now, "getting rich" is a foolish example to use, since how does one define "rich",

Why does it matter if a term is difficult to define or not?

but there are other more concrete examples like: will we be able to save our home by paying off the mortgage? Might actually not happen, simply because you desire it to, and despite your working your behind off. Life happens, even if it sounds fatalistic.

Yeah well, those people shouldn't have used their property as collateral when they borrowed money. Not my fault.

Of course, it is, or there would be no reason to get out of bed in the morning. However, "free will is a thing" within certain confines only, and that because of various factors. Some I will mention, which might make sense to those believing in absolute free will. For instance: man is a social animal, lives in a society made up of people and circumstances and events, so those serve as confines. One's own background and the opportunities available to one in life also are certain other confines.

90% of your life is created by yourself. 10% is just life throwing **** at you. But how you react and the choices you make really determines the quality of your life. Absolutely no doubt about that in my mind. People's lives suck because they did it to themselves.

Other factors, which I believe in, don't often make sense to those that believe in absolute free will. Those I will not get into here.

Okay.

Everything is for you the way you (want to) understand it to be or the way you accept it to be. Basta!

Transits are MUCH more than just "markers for victim periods" and Astrology is capable of MUCH more than just being able to talk about one's character or personality traits.

Disagree. BEcause once you start talking about transits, and other things, you walking on shallow territory. That's when astrologers abuse or make stuff up. That's where clients are begging or using confirmation bias for a certain belief. That's when things start to lose their truth.

I mean, honestly, when my Saturn return happens, I don't think I'm going to feel anything.

Of course, that only in the hands of a good, experienced Astrologer and one that has an open mind that goes beyond just absolution of free will and everything else being absolution in terms of fatalism.

Yes.

How does transformation happen? Isn't it oftentimes through an unhappy event? That is why the outers are taken to be as malefics.

Yeah, because outside circumstances shouldn't matter. Your individuality and your own choices should matter.

This, AppLeo, is something I commend you for.

Thank you.
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
AppLeo,

I will not be as laborious in my efforts this time around because I feel you and I are coming from two absolutely differing wavelengths and world, and one needs a) a very open mind to be willing to understand the other's POV, and b) frankly speaking I feel you still have a lot of experience in life to gain.

I could challenge and openly disagree with a lot of what you asserted, but I do not have the patience right now to substantially and convincingly refute it. Also because I feel our wavelengths on this subject do not match.

Astrology is not a 2+2=4 sort of science. It indeed is a divination. You canNOT, in my opinion, learn it by reading a handful of books. It goes much deeper than that. I know exactly when I don't understand a chart, not because it is a complicated one, but because I don't 'feel' it. Astrology is something you feel. A chart should talk to you. Pluto is not simply good or bad. I think you get where I am going with this, or perhaps not. But then there is a certain vagueness attached to it.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
AppLeo,

I will not be as laborious in my efforts this time around because I feel you and I are coming from two absolutely differing wavelengths and world,

I suppose.

and one needs a) a very open mind to be willing to understand the other's POV,

My mind is open. Just because I don't adopt and accept other people's beliefs doesn't mean I'm closed minded. If being open means accepting everyone's beliefs and not having a strong belief of your own, then I don't want to be open minded.

and b) frankly speaking I feel you still have a lot of experience in life to gain.

Yeah, yeah that's what everyone says when I start saying something they don't agree with.

If I did agree with you, you would say I'm wise beyond my years.

There are old people who have the same views as I do.

So nice try with that argument...

I could challenge and openly disagree with a lot of what you asserted, but I do not have the patience right now to substantially and convincingly refute it.

Sounds like an excuse if you ask me.

Also because I feel our wavelengths on this subject do not match.

You feel...

Do you think our wavelengths match?

Astrology is not a 2+2=4 sort of science.

Must be a faulty science.

It indeed is a divination. You canNOT, in my opinion, learn it by reading a handful of books. It goes much deeper than that. I know exactly when I don't understand a chart, not because it is a complicated one, but because I don't 'feel' it. Astrology is something you feel. A chart should talk to you. Pluto is not simply good or bad. I think you get where I am going with this, or perhaps not. But then there is a certain vagueness attached to it.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. Maybe I'm just not cut out for astrology.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Must be a faulty science.
That is enough for me to repeat myself: you have a lot of growing up to do in terms of experience. And no, I don't think and feel that our wavelengths match. And, when I say that, it does not singularly have to do with your not readily accepting what I said, but the manner in which you deny and that without maintaining an open-door to what has been said.

And, it is not just this thread.

A piece of advice that people gave to me also when I was hardly 20 or less is that there is lots that I will learn as "life happens" that no right "kind of science" or book can teach me. And, I know that when I will be 50 or 60, I will be much richer in what I know than I am know. And, yes, that comes with experience, and experience grows with age, and experience teaches you much more than any text book or "the right kind of science" can.
 
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blackbery

Well-known member
You state that you have overcome your sense of being a victim.

Good for you.

At what age and stage of your life did you come to this victory?

I ask because you seem angry that people don't just pull up their socks and stop with the self-pity because you think it's time.

Have you walked a mile in their shoes?

Do you understand the insecurities and pain of a person of color?

Or a gay person?

Your problems might be considered trivial compared to others. Regardless, you felt like a victim because of the circumstances of your life. If you had confided in a friend at the time and they told you to "pull yourself out of being a victim" would this have helped you? Or would have liked a person to listen to you, to validate your feelings and to offer emotional support?

You might have planetary aspects that make you stronger emotionally than others. My family history is littered with suicides because of situational depressions and inability to deal with certain situations. One family member took her own life because her husband left her for another women. Another took his life when he lost his job and couldn't support his family and felt like a failure.

Allow people the time to mature and evolve at their level. Allow them to accept and overcome their pain and suffering (or victim hood as you call it).


“I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”
— Maya Angelou




InfoOverload2, well, I sure can't relate to "Eye of the Tiger!" I'm not out there to street-fight with anybody. So I guess I'd opt for viewing astrology's highest use is a tool for self-awareness; and ideally, self-improvement.

This song more resonates for me during tough times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_sk3EQPX1U

I don't know how metaphysical you intended your post to be, but I understand it at a highly metaphysical level. At one point in my life I read and was highly impressed by the Jane Roberts Seth books. "Seth" never discussed astrology so far as I recall, but he did say that souls choose the circumstances of their incarnations, and generally, the people with whom they will reincarnate with. He doesn't at all take a past lives/bad lives heavy karma approach. Rather, souls choose the circumstances most conducive to their personal growth and creativity. Souls may choose difficult lives to further particular growth trajectories. But any life, even a child who dies at birth, has a learning experience, according to Roberts/Seth.

To me, it was just a short hop from this view of life to think that if souls choose the circumstances of their birth, then there is a horoscope for it.

Sometimes when I see a really difficult chart, I think of that person as being a spiritual athlete, who wanted an extra-challenging lifetime. But of course, if the person hasn't asked for a metaphysical reading, I'm loathe to foist it on them. I mean, I think that the person wants to know when he's getting a job offer, not necessarily that he's engaged in an existential struggle. But I absolutely do take your point.

Can you link some sample of your approach to horoscope reading when the person is deeply unhappy and feels unable to progress? It would be instructive to see how you handle it.
 
Natural loss of loved ones or incidental loss of loved ones. Victim to natural occurrence or accidental.

Bus did not arrive on time, late to an appointment. Victim to circumstance.

Abused as child.
Victim to the lack of empathy they share between each other.
Victim to their lack of control.
Victim to their outbursts.
Victim to their obsession.
Victim to their laziness.
Victim to their instability.

Etc.. could go on with that one.

Everyone is a victim, it's just that some people are able to be a victim on other levels.

The ones you truly need to worry about are the ones who go silent never opening it up to the world ever, not even to close people, these ones are likely to let it eat them alive.

-Robin Williams.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/03/robin-williams-disintegrating-before-suicide-widow-says


f47e31a054ada8d327c8a53626b84faf--so-sad-great-quotes.jpg


Robin2.jpg


robin_williams_0.jpg


ee9bec3823ca95886976343cf4116aab--so-sad-robins.jpg
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
That is enough for me to repeat myself: you have a lot of growing up to do in terms of experience.

What does that have to do with anything?

And no, I don't think and feel that our wavelengths match. And, when I say that, it does not singularly have to do with your not readily accepting what I said, but the manner in which you deny and that without maintaining an open-door to what has been said.

I have an open door to things that make sense. I don't open my door to ideas that don't make sense.

And, it is not just this thread.

A piece of advice that people gave to me also when I was hardly 20 or less is that there is lots that I will learn as "life happens" that no right "kind of science" or book can teach me. And, I know that when I will be 50 or 60, I will be much richer in what I know than I am know. And, yes, that comes with experience, and experience grows with age, and experience teaches you much more than any text book or "the right kind of science" can.

Sure, I guess.
 
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