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  #1  
Unread 09-27-2015, 07:38 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Imagine two windows looking out onto a yard at both ends of a house. Same yard, different angle of view. Some things are visible from both windows, some are not. Same tree, for example, but opposite sides of the tree. What's wrong with that? Just walk down the hallway and enjoy the view from either window. Why is there this need many have for just one vantage point? If you have this need, could you please explain it to me? My chart is extremely Mutable (Piscean Asc., Sagittarian M.C.) and I enjoy the variation. Maybe it has something to do with Fixed-sign charts?

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  #2  
Unread 09-27-2015, 11:09 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I choose sidereal because when I use a telescope, the planets are placed according to the sidereal zodiac.
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Unread 09-27-2015, 02:39 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I like David's observations as this all being One whole unity with different perspectives: is a matter macrocosm and microcosm.

By that, I mean, if you want to look at it from the viewpoint of the macrocosm of the heavens, with a telescope, like good duendoroja prefers, then you may choose sidereal. If you want to look at it from the groundedness of the earth's microcosm, its seasons, you may choose tropical.

As they say, "All roads lead to Rome."

PS: While I have mutable angles, like David, the planets in my chart are very strongly weighted towards fixed signs. So, I guess that may invalidate the "fixed sign" suggestion of not preferring variation! :-)

Best to you all,
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Last edited by IleneK; 09-27-2015 at 02:43 PM.
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  #4  
Unread 09-27-2015, 06:47 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

It can be all well and nice attitude to say you can use both and you can put it up like it is just a different perspective out of different windows towards a different side of the same thing.

BUT I'd like to add into this thread that you can see many many many many threads in this forum and other forums about this same issue to learn more about this kind of discussions and different opinions.

You could also try to think of it like a mathematical equation that you need to solve and in order to get the correct answer, you need to go through a certain process of calculations and you can go back and forth, but there is only one correct way to solve that equation

There is a reason for precessed solar return returning more accurate and correct answers than non-precessed. To correct for precession is a sidereal method.

This is why I think to myself, they can not both be correct.
They deliver different answers.
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Unread 09-27-2015, 07:29 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
It can be all well and nice attitude to say you can use both and you can put it up like it is just a different perspective out of different windows towards a different side of the same thing.

BUT I'd like to add into this thread that you can see many many many many threads in this forum and other forums about this same issue to learn more about this kind of discussions and different opinions.

You could also try to think of it like a mathematical equation that you need to solve and in order to get the correct answer, you need to go through a certain process of calculations and you can go back and forth, but there is only one correct way to solve that equation

There is a reason for precessed solar return returning more accurate and correct answers than non-precessed. To correct for precession is a sidereal method.

This is why I think to myself, they can not both be correct.
They deliver different answers.
It is only with kindness and respect that I mention that perhaps you are unaware of equations that have more than one unique solution? And we all know that looking at the same thing from different perspectives will give you two views of that same thing.

But I expect that there is not much to gain by going too much further, as astrology is both art and science. And as this appears to be a matter of personal perspective, rather than empirical demonstatration, this subject likely falls into the domain of sex, religion and so on, such that we not ought become too contentious about it.
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Last edited by IleneK; 02-23-2016 at 09:01 PM.
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  #6  
Unread 10-07-2015, 12:32 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slenkar View Post

I think it is best to look at both charts

E.g. Steve Jobs is Aquarian/Pisces

He was a cult-like leader -Pisces
But was also a big computer guy -Aquarius

Looking at the chart of BB King you see almost perfect planetary dignity in his sidereal chart.

Tom Cruise has Venus in Leo in tropical and he was a showoff when he was in a relationship
(jumping on the sofa when on the Oprah show cos he was happy about his relationship)
This is the description on a lot of astrology sites.
BILL NYE ON ASTROLOGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQPFoDkGFrU

REPLY TO BILL NYE ON ASTROLOGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CyVHkFF7Sk
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  #7  
Unread 10-08-2015, 05:27 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Bill Nye displays the traits of a "skeptical Sagittarian"--upfront, blunt, high-energy, unconflicted and uncomplicated--of the Tropical sort. I realize it's his public persona, but I'm not seeing Scorpio even lurking underneath. Had a show called "The Eyes of Nye". I see his Moon-sign is Taurus, but no birth time available.

Last edited by david starling; 10-08-2015 at 06:04 PM.
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  #8  
Unread 10-08-2015, 05:59 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Bill Nye displays the traits of a "skeptical Sagittarian"
--upfront, blunt, high-energy, unconflicted and uncomplicated
--of the Tropical sort.
I realize it's his public persona, but I'm not seeing Scorpio even lurking underneath
.
Clearly, to focus on one sole planet is misleading and leads to unreliable generalisation

becauseobviously
"sceptics who are upfront, high-energy, unconflicted and uncomplicated" are not all Sagittarians
which is your implication

and in any event
sidereal and tropical are merely two different methodologies

just because an astrologer prefers tropical
does not mean sidereal is redundant
particularly since vedic sidereal astrologers are renowned for their accurate predictions
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  #9  
Unread 10-08-2015, 06:05 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Imagine two windows looking out onto a yard at both ends of a house.
Same yard, different angle of view.
Some things are visible from both windows, some are not.
Same tree, for example, but opposite sides of the tree.
What's wrong with that? Just walk down the hallway and enjoy the view from either window.
the two windows are not only "looking onto a yard at both ends of a house"
but also have the same sky view

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Why is there this need many have for just one vantage point?
If you have this need, could you please explain it to me?
Useful then if you would explain whether you also have this need or not
i.e
whether you are able to use BOTH Tropical AND Sidereal or not


Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
My chart is extremely Mutable (Piscean Asc., Sagittarian M.C.) and I enjoy the variation.
Maybe it has something to do with Fixed-sign charts?
Maybe

Or
maybe not

i.e. the implication is that anyone in India who follows Sidereal astrology
has for thousands of years
been born with "Fixed-sign charts"
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  #10  
Unread 10-08-2015, 06:25 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Yes. I'm coming around to the (tentative) view that Tropicalism is great for Identity and behavioral attitude, and Vedic for Prediction. Very frustrating for Vedics in the West, trying to dismiss Tropicalism as altogether invalid, when Tropical Sun-sign identity works so well for so many non-astrologers. Problem for me, it's late in the game to start learning Vedic well enough to become proficient in it. Tropicalism is predictive as well, but doesn't seem to be as fine-tuned. On the other hand, predicting time of Demise doesn't really appeal to me (I understand that's often done in India). I'm all about functioning and maintaining balance, and Tropicalism works for that. I'm an old dog, and learning new tricks isn't easy for me. But I can definitely see the value in both Traditionalism and Vedic.

Last edited by david starling; 10-08-2015 at 07:22 PM.
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  #11  
Unread 10-08-2015, 06:50 PM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I should have said "Fixed -sign Angles". I'm referring to those, entirely unlike yourself, who aren't just comfortable with the method they grew up with, or ended up using, but insist it's the Only method for everyone everywhere. It was just a minor question regarding a remote possibility. Here's one for you--the Synastry of Sense of humor and how important is humor compatibility in a relationship?
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  #12  
Unread 10-08-2015, 07:30 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Yes. I'm coming around to the (tentative) view that Tropicalism is great for Identity and behavioral attitude, and Vedic for Prediction. Very frustrating for Vedics in the West, trying to dismiss Tropicalism as altogether invalid, when Tropical Sun-sign identity works so well for so many non-astrologers. Problem for me, it's late in the game to start learning Vedic well enough to become proficient in it. Tropicalism is predictive as well, but doesn't seem to be as fine-tuned. On the other hand, predicting time of Demise doesn't really appeal to me (I understand that's often done in India). I'm all about functioning and maintaining balance, and Tropicalism works for that. I'm an old dog, and learning new tricks isn't easy for me. But I can definitely see the value in both Traditionalism and Vedic.
I'd put the western predictive tradition up against jyotish for doing predictive astrology, they're both good. But here's the thing: it's not easy doing correct predictions in either system.

Unfortunately, even doing western predictive (more accurately it would probably be the Arabo-Persic stuff from the early middle ages, with a bit thrown in from the earlier Hellenists and the later Renaissance folks) is going to involve a whole bunch of reading, because it's not like modern astrology.

On the other hand, astrology is a lifetime commitment to learning. If you really want to do either jyotish or western predictive - well, we're none of us getting any younger, but at least we live in a time when books - and people - are a lot more available thanks to the internet.

If you're alive I don't think it's too late, whichever other system you prefer
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  #13  
Unread 11-17-2015, 01:52 AM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I'm here to learn, and I've been given, or directed to, some excellent information. I'm now (recently) of the opinion that the two coordinate systems do mesh, in a way very important to my interest (obsession?) with the Astrological Ages: In my informed opinion, the Sidereal Ages and Tropical Ages are both in effect. The Sidereal affect our sense of Spirit and Permanence, while the Tropical affect us on the Material Plane in a Temporal way. Both versions at once are now telling us of the Aquarian Age--Body, Mind and Spirit will unite under these circumstances, because the Permanent will align with the Temporal in this powerful, Fixed-air sign.
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  #14  
Unread 02-20-2016, 12:59 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I have been studied vedic astrology as a hobby in a couple of years and is a big fan of KRS on YouTube, because it was more correct from the point of view of the stars and had completely dropped the modern tropical school system i was educated in, where Liz Greene was the big star, as you all know tropical astrology follows the seasons not the star signs. Then in August 2014 when my progressed Sun entered Capricorn 0 degrees (tropical) a meeting came up out of the blue about career and validated the tropical system to me again and at the same time validated the house system placidus and 1 degree progressed movement for me. So both systems works for me and i can not logically explain why. I´m not an expert in the vedic astrology and it´s very different because they focus on the Moon, the stars and they have the nakshatras and the padas etc. so its a matter of perspective and i think there will always be a fight between the two systems. I find the vedic astrology to be more fatalistic, than the western astrology school i was educated in 18 years ago.
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  #15  
Unread 02-21-2016, 08:09 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Progressed Sun into Capricorn is not a sign of a job or a meeting
This is not enough to go on.

Did you look into your SSR that year as well as transits to your SSR?
That could well explain a job coming to you
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Unread 02-21-2016, 10:48 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I will not discuss my astrological proof, progressed Sun in Capricorn in this thread, because the topic is Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal? I hope you understand
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  #17  
Unread 02-21-2016, 02:58 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Imagine two windows looking out onto a yard at both ends of a house. Same yard, different angle of view. Some things are visible from both windows, some are not. Same tree, for example, but opposite sides of the tree. What's wrong with that? Just walk down the hallway and enjoy the view from either window. Why is there this need many have for just one vantage point? If you have this need, could you please explain it to me? My chart is extremely Mutable (Piscean Asc., Sagittarian M.C.) and I enjoy the variation. Maybe it has something to do with Fixed-sign charts?
That's a wonderful analogy, David. But I don't think it actually applies to tropical vs. sidereal. One being the corrupted version of the other sounds more accurate.
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  #18  
Unread 02-21-2016, 03:12 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

This may seem off topic, but I hope someone can relate.

I have been studying astrology for seven years. That is a short time but it has been enough time for me to develop my own style.

When you look up at the night sky through a telescope, the sky is not as tropical reports it to be. There are many zodiacs: fagan-Allen, lahiri, deluce, raman, ushasashi, krishnamurti, djwhal khul- and all of them report the planets in proper signs, plus or minus 10 degrees.

Only tropical is way out there, claiming planets are in signs they are not physically in. Look through a telescope to see what I mean.

So, because I have refused the tropical zodiac, the members of this community have forced me to post in Vedic forum. I make my horaries in lahiri/whole sign, my synastry and Davison relationship and solar/lunar returns in the same, but I read just like any other western astrologer.

I only want truth, you see.

When I used to study tropical/placidus, I only identified with the aspect reports. But when I discovered Vedic, I could finally identify with the sign placements.
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Unread 02-21-2016, 05:48 PM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I COULD make the case that as far as the meanings of the Signs goes, they were Seasonal from the time they were first clearly recorded in ancient Babylonia c. late 3rd Millennium, and that the Zodiacal constellations were merely temporary "sky-hooks" for Seasonal imagery. And, that when Tropical Astrology came in around 150 B.C., it brought them back into play for a few centuries. But, I won't, because I really do believe it's an "angle of view" matter.

duenderoja, the constellations are comprised of stars that are actually not close together, EXCEPT from our Angle of View here on Earth. Which is fine, as is your ability to see more clearly using the Vedic "lenses". That's another analogy, prescription glasses, enabling one to see things more clearly with them than without them. It's not a "one-prescription-fits-all" situation. I do sympathize with Siderealists of all sorts in the Western countries, because so many people have all ready identified with their Tropical Sun-sign. Explaining that there are other, very effective Astrological systems in addition to Tropicalism isn't easy, so some Siderealists become frustrated, and attempt the argument that Tropicalism isn't valid, and that it should be simply discarded.

Last edited by david starling; 02-21-2016 at 07:56 PM.
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Unread 02-22-2016, 11:44 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Take a look at some climate charts around the world. The seasonal argument only works for the northern hemisphere. And even there it only works for the areas with temperate climate. Near the equator you have no actual seasons, the only difference they know there is more rain vs. less rain and the closer you come to the arctic the less seasons you get again. So this theory would only work for a rather narrow strip between the arctic and the tropics on the northern hemisphere, like central Europe. But they use the tropical zodiac for the entire globe. So obviously there's something not quite right here.
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  #21  
Unread 02-22-2016, 01:21 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

David starling,

I said that I practice just as any other Western astrologer. The only reason I spend a lot of time in the Vedic forum, is because this community pushes me there. No one will engage my charts or questions simply because I am using a different zodiac.

I also see it the way you do, that they are different lenses. But why cannot everyone else? Why must I be pushed to the side simply because I choose to use a different zodiac?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Take a look at some climate charts around the world. The seasonal argument only works for the northern hemisphere. And even there it only works for the areas with temperate climate. Near the equator you have no actual seasons, the only difference they know there is more rain vs. less rain and the closer you come to the arctic the less seasons you get again. So this theory would only work for a rather narrow strip between the arctic and the tropics on the northern hemisphere, like central Europe. But they use the tropical zodiac for the entire globe. So obviously there's something not quite right here.

I also agree. And truth be told, astrology would be more prevalent if people actually found their Sun signs to be true for them. I am speaking of the general public. And the most common sentiment that I have come across – is that the sun sign the tropical zodiac assigns to people does not apply to the person. So they dismiss astrology out right. "Astrology is too general, astrology is too vague."

Have you ever wondered why astrology is so prevalent in India?
Besides the cultural argument.

I personally believe that people who get into astrology are able to convince themselves that they are what the description says they are when it is the aspects that are telling the truth the most.

Last edited by duenderoja; 02-22-2016 at 01:45 PM.
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Unread 02-22-2016, 01:32 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

duenderoja, I've engaged in your charts when I visit this forum now and then

I use western sidereal astrology of Fagan-Allen, Donald Bradley, Ebertin, Eshelman. It isn't vedic, it is western sidereal. It takes the Earth's precession into account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlVgEoZDjok
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Unread 02-22-2016, 01:37 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Yes, you do! You are very open-minded! There are a few who do engage my charts, but I would like to be a part of the community, you see.
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Unread 02-22-2016, 05:27 PM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Vedic is awesome! Keep up the good work! Interesting handle, duenderoja--what language is it from (if you don't mind me asking)?

Muchacho, a compass won't work at the Poles, but is still a useful navigational instrument. Anyone from Down Under care to comment on whether Tropical Astrology's Northern Hemispheric seasonal metaphor (Aries as the 1st Sign of Spring) appears to work for the Southern Hemisphere as well?
It's not really a Seasonal "argument"; it's a metaphor which might actually apply worldwide, and that would explain why it was discovered where the "correct" seasonal order was perfectly apparent (correct for Tropical Astrology worldwide). There are trees that can be grown in some climates and not others, but their fruit can be enjoyed everywhere, for a simile.

Last edited by david starling; 02-23-2016 at 01:00 AM.
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Unread 02-22-2016, 06:49 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Spanish. Red fairy.
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