Independent Thinking and Patience vs. Passiveness

Silversong

Well-known member
Thank you so much for responding, IleneK! I was afraid that I wrote too much- there was actually a lot that I cut out! :pinched:. It just that I wanted to write down everything that I could to show that I'd really been thinking about this. So here is my rewrite:

I have found out recently that I am incredibly passive. It seems odd that I wouldn't know it, but it's something that was so natural me that I actually had no awareness as to how passive I am. So now, I need your help to answer three questions: does a strong tendency to passiveness show in my chart? If so, where? Can I study the relevant placements and aspects to begin changing my behavior in a more positive way?

Before delving into my chart, I began thinking about why I am so passive and the way I express it, which made me think of my interpretation of patience: speak once and wait for response/wait to politely call others' attention. To ask again or repeat myself seemed rude and unpleasant, so I always avoided that. Trust me, I am now going to learn to let go of that! :rolleyes:

I proceeded to outline my exploration into my chart:

I thought of all of the times when I read that Mars Neptune Oppositions cause a sense of passiveness or lack of initiative in the native's chart, so that jumped out at me. However, I couldn't imagine that it could be so simple, so I looked at the signs they occupy: Cancer and Capricorn.

I next diverted into a spontaneous contemplation on nature of Cardinal signs: Is Cardinal energy inherently Independent? When I take a cursory glace at each sign, it seems like that might be so. It was easiest for me to see in Aries and Capricorn, and after a little more thought, I thought I could understand the independence in Libran energy.

By the time I got back to Cancer, leaving it for last since my Mars is there, I reference an article that helped clarify the relationship between this planet and sign: http://austincoppock.com/2009/08/mars-cancer/
It speaks about the mythology of Mars and Cancer as planet/god and Sign/energy without going straight to crowning this as the Passive-Aggressive placement or things of that nature. When he explains that Cancer is builds foundations and creates an emotional safe-haven, I consider that to be a difficult undertaking that one chooses to do- another type of independent action.

From there, I explain the background of my perspective on independence, since I now think that I have found an insightful point worth exploring. However, as I create the background, it becomes plain to me that this perspective created a behavior pattern in which I rarely attempt to ask for help or speak up about my needs or make myself heard- Passivity.
In the past, as far as I understood it (and never rethought it until very recently), to be independent was to take the initiative on as much as possible without needing to ask for help. If I found something I needed without having to ask someone to guide me there, that was showing independence and ingenuity. If I was able to understand a lesson in class without having to ask for any extra help or tutoring, that was independence and intelligence. If I took the time to research as much as I could about a question before finally asking for help, that was independence and respect of the other person's time (even if I still felt a little like a failure and an imposition when I did have to ask).

After writing this background, I feel like I've gone a bit too far away from talking about my chart and I attempt to bring the focus back to it by discussing more aspects to Mars and how those could have a dampening effect on my Martian energy. I figure that Chiron must be relevant since he is supposed to symbolize a deep wound that everyone has. If he's conjunct Mars, I suppose that that means I have a painful relationship with assertion, action (versus reaction), and initiative. I think that this might be true as I don't know how to stand up for myself and oftentimes I feel that to ask for accommodations and insist on recognition is just asking to be ignored or attacked in some way and since I am afraid of that, I would rather not.

My entire question becomes even more complicated when I realize that I hadn't even talked about my Moon! Certainly, as the emotional center and the ruler of reactive behavior, my Moon must play a role? And if I was going to talk about my Moon, I felt obliged to acknowledge that while I am aware my sun sign is not necessarily about speedy response either, that's a completely different thing from being disinclined to respond at all. However, I felt like I had written much too much (like I said, I was trying to show how much thinking I had done about this before asking because it's not a frivolous question) already and stopped right there.

I am afraid that this rewrite might still be outrageously long but to reiterate: I need your help to answer three questions: does a strong tendency to passiveness show in my chart? If so, where? Can I study the relevant placements and aspects to begin changing my behavior in a more positive way?

Thank you very much, everyone!
 

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IleneK

Premium Member
Hi, Silversong,

Good to see you again.

I wonder if you would pick out one part of what you have written here to focus in on, or maybe distill and summarize what you what you want to look at. For me, and this is just me
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, I really can't get my arms around all that you are bringing up.

It might yield itself more readily to analysis and to your thought process if you could simplify it?

Cheers to you.
 

Silversong

Well-known member
I'm really sorry to everyone who saw that wall o'text and turned right around. :lol:

I think that this edit still shows what I've gotten so far while being much more readable.

And thank you so much for having the patience to read through all of that and respond, IleneK! :love:

It was actually really helpful to come back and go over my questions again!
 

Blacknight

Well-known member
I have found out recently that I am incredibly passive. It seems odd that I wouldn't know it, but it's something that was so natural me that I actually had no awareness as to how passive I am. So now, I need your help to answer three questions: does a strong tendency to passiveness show in my chart? If so, where? Can I study the relevant placements and aspects to begin changing my behavior in a more positive way?

I am afraid that this rewrite might still be outrageously long but to reiterate: I need your help to answer three questions: does a strong tendency to passiveness show in my chart? If so, where? Can I study the relevant placements and aspects to begin changing my behavior in a more positive way?

Thank you very much, everyone!

Hey, cool chart. You share very similar aspects to my own (mars in cancer opposing neptune/uranus in capricorn, taurus sun, etc). Here's mine if you're curious: (linky). (I love sharing my chart btw haha :wink:)

First of all, what made you suddenly realize you act passively in life? Have you noticed people commenting or is it something you've noticed internally?

As for the more technical stuff, I'm no expert; I notice a few things though. 7 of your planets are in signs considered female or what others might consider passive or introverted. This could contribute to your feelings of passivity. Additionally, your 3 planets in male signs only have prominent hard aspects to other planets, square or opposing; this could mean your more assertive qualities tend to be poorly expressed.

Jupiter in Leo is opposite Saturn in Aquarius within 49 minutes of a degree which could have a neutering effect on Jupiter's expansiveness & warmth. Your Mercury in Aries is squared to you Cancer Mars & Capricorn Neptune (forming a T square)... which may limit your communication and encourage verbal passivity.

I'd say 3 of your planets are really important in affecting your disposition... Those being your sun (will) moon (emotions) mars (fight) and also the ascendant for your outward appearance or physical aura. I think the moon would play a major part in how you feel about yourself; pisces is a soft position for your moon. Mars is also in its fall in cancer with opposition, so again assertiveness is not well aspected.

I also see you have a sweet grand trine in water signs (aspected between pluto, moon, & mars). Here's a quote I found for that position:

A grand trine in water indicates a deep reservoir of emotional support when we need it. In times of emotional difficulty or trauma, I suspect that your emotional strength will support you. In psychological terminology this is known as the ability to 'self-soothe', which enables you to find comfort within, even when you are feeling abandoned or alone. This is the resource that enables people to get through difficult emotional periods in their lives without cracking at the seams or falling apart.

I bet this configuration gives you great emotional intelligence. These are just surface observations. How all the aspects relate to planets & the houses they occupy will require someone more enlightened. :p

On the whole, I see charts as schematics of a person's inclination toward self expression. If you feel the need to be more assertive then be more assertive. Setting goals, even small ones, and accomplishing them is a good way to start your march toward assertion. Maybe try being more physically active. Start a fight with a stranger. :wink:
 

IleneK

Premium Member
I'm really sorry to everyone who saw that wall o'text and turned right around. :lol:

I think that this edit still shows what I've gotten so far while being much more readable.

And thank you so much for having the patience to read through all of that and respond, IleneK! :love:

It was actually really helpful to come back and go over my questions again!


Thank you so much for your effort at the rewrite. Let me have a bit of time to look at your chart and then I will get back to you.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Blacknight makes a good observation about all the planets in your chart in the feminine/receptive signs. Focusing in even more closely, all of your personal planets are in receptive signs except for Mercury, which we know is quite active.
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And in the end, without going into a detailed analysis of the points you raise, I think it comes down to a matter of balance. Your inclination is strongly towards receptivity, which makes you lovely and mannered in my opinion. What you are wanting is a little more action, assertion, and a little less reaction and reception.

Rather than pointing you to symbols in the chart, I would recommend an exercise in awareness, where you track and journal the your nature of your interactions for a month or so. At first you may not realize your passivity, it until a week later or a day later. But then it will be an hour later and eventually you will know it when it is happening, if you do cannot do that already. Once you gain awareness that you are behaving receptively when you want to act, then you can chose to act. In this way you will begin introducing making conscious choices about how you are behaving, which is the desired goal anyway, rather than just trying to be more asserting.

As to which planetary energies you might employ to this end, I would look primarily to very strong, angular, dignified Saturn ruling your 3rd house of communication as the teacher of your hard life lessons. But also, importantly, transiting Saturn, applies to a closing square to its natal position, and it is set to perfect in the middle of next month. It is timely that you raise this question and the potential for understanding on your part is great.
 

Silversong

Well-known member
Hi Blacknight! Thanks for stopping by! Cool, we do have a lot of planet placements in common! :happy:

It's kind of funny how I realized my passiveness. I mean, I always knew that I took a fairly hands-off approach to things, but I didn't really realize that it was my default response! :rolleyes: But yes; I was in a conversation, telling a story about how much trouble I had getting help with customer service when the person I was talking to was like- "why didn't you call more than once? Why didn't you ask somebody to help you talk to the people at the store?" And since I hadn't even realized that stuff until I was telling the story, I was like "Oh.... yea, I didn't really realize that I had those options! I was just going to wait and be "polite." :pinched: Yeah, no- I was totally relying on an unreliable system because I didn't want to speak up more. In short: passive.

I keep forgetting the polarity factor in my chart! Yep, reacting instead of acting is coded into my chart from a very basic level, eh? Much like a fair few other character traits that I'm working on becoming more aware of so that they don't feel like difficulties instead of just differences. That's life!

And that's an interesting point you make about all of my active-sign planets being hard aspect- I don't think I'd ever looked at it that way before, actually. I think that I'd just assumed that the difficulty of the hard aspects would force these planets to be more active- but maybe that doesn't make so much sense. :innocent:

Yep, that's what I hear about my Water Trine! Emotional Strength and the whole deal- I kind of wish it something that I could actively use, rather than acting more like a fail-safe, but it's not like I can't meditate on that or something! :sideways:

Ha, I won't be getting in any fights, but setting small goals sounds pretty good! Thanks! :biggrin:
 

Silversong

Well-known member
Thank you again, IleneK! :smile:

Teehee, my Mercury certainly makes sure to make himself heard over my more receptive personal planets!

Thank you for the journal idea! I actually had been thinking more about when I default to passiveness, and writing it down seems like the logical next step to take (that I might have been too lazy to follow through with, but not now! :joyful:).

Ah, Saturn.... I guess I even more reasons for seeing his current transit as important. And isn't synchronicity something?

I probably should make myself more aware of the impact of Saturn transits (when I can, at any rate!).

Ok, so in invoking Saturnine energy, I could see my attempts to act more consciously and less passively as a form of personality foundation building? As in: It will be hard to make notice of and loosen my default tendency to passiveness but with little steps and time I can do it. ((I still am very intimidated by Saturn and less than enthused at the amount of prominence he has in my chart sometimes.)) However, hard work and self-improvement go well together, right? :sideways:

Also... my Saturn is angular? I thought he'd have to be nearer to the fourth house cusp for that...?
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Thank you again, IleneK! :smile:


Ok, so in invoking Saturnine energy, I could see my attempts to act more consciously and less passively as a form of personality foundation building? As in: It will be hard to make notice of and loosen my default tendency to passiveness but with little steps and time I can do it. ((I still am very intimidated by Saturn and less than enthused at the amount of prominence he has in my chart sometimes.)) However, hard work and self-improvement go well together, right? :sideways:

Also... my Saturn is angular? I thought he'd have to be nearer to the fourth house cusp for that...?

Dignified Saturn endows you with strength, focus, foundation to accomplish this valuable undertaking.

My mistake about Saturn's angularity; was looking at the wrong house cusp.
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IleneK

Premium Member
Hi Blacknight! Thanks for stopping by! Cool, we do have a lot of planet placements in common! :happy:

It's kind of funny how I realized my passiveness. I mean, I always knew that I took a fairly hands-off approach to things, but I didn't really realize that it was my default response! :rolleyes: But yes; I was in a conversation, telling a story about how much trouble I had getting help with customer service when the person I was talking to was like- "why didn't you call more than once? Why didn't you ask somebody to help you talk to the people at the store?" And since I hadn't even realized that stuff until I was telling the story, I was like "Oh.... yea, I didn't really realize that I had those options! I was just going to wait and be "polite." :pinched: Yeah, no- I was totally relying on an unreliable system because I didn't want to speak up more. In short: passive.

I keep forgetting the polarity factor in my chart! Yep, reacting instead of acting is coded into my chart from a very basic level, eh? Much like a fair few other character traits that I'm working on becoming more aware of so that they don't feel like difficulties instead of just differences. That's life!

And that's an interesting point you make about all of my active-sign planets being hard aspect- I don't think I'd ever looked at it that way before, actually. I think that I'd just assumed that the difficulty of the hard aspects would force these planets to be more active- but maybe that doesn't make so much sense. :innocent:

Yep, that's what I hear about my Water Trine! Emotional Strength and the whole deal- I kind of wish it something that I could actively use, rather than acting more like a fail-safe, but it's not like I can't meditate on that or something! :sideways:

Ha, I won't be getting in any fights, but setting small goals sounds pretty good! Thanks! :biggrin:

You know, if we just look at the traditional planets and the Moon's nodes, and leave off the outer planets and Chiron, we can get a pretty clear picture of the inclination towards inertia [my old friend, with natal Sun, Moon, Mars, Saturn and Moon's nodes all in fixed
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] or what you may describe, at least in part, as passivity.

Your personal planets, the inner five and excluding Jupiter and Saturn, really tell the tale. We start with Sun in Taurus, perhaps the most fixed and serene of all the signs. Then Mars, symbolic of energy and assertion, is in the sign of its fall, so not able to act as easily as it normally would.

Then you have Mercury in an asserting sign, a sign that invites Mars to act, but as Mercury and Mars are squared, so there are obstacles to Mars' energy again. Mercury also forms a t-square to your lunar nodes, again suggesting obstruction in moving towards your life's calling. Moon in Pisces is happy to fit into any container in which it finds itself; very receptive and flowing. It is Venus in Cancer that is perhaps freest to act, for you to express your love through care, though that may not feel like a particularly active thing to do.

Then we move to Jupiter and Saturn both in fixed signs and in challenging
aspect.

So we have a lot of cohesion, fixity and receptivity in the most personal of your planets. Many folks are wired this way; others, the opposite way; and tons in other combinations and permutations, all with their life lessons and challenges to undertake in this life. And all call for heightened awareness as a means of engaging the energies that they have been given. That is why it is good that you have observed as much as you have. And as you really formalize it by journaling, you will have a much more objective view of what is going on and what you can do to be the way you would like to be, than if you are just letting life live you.

Let us know how it goes.
 

Blacknight

Well-known member
Hi Blacknight! Thanks for stopping by! Cool, we do have a lot of planet placements in common! :happy:

It's kind of funny how I realized my passiveness. I mean, I always knew that I took a fairly hands-off approach to things, but I didn't really realize that it was my default response! :rolleyes: But yes; I was in a conversation, telling a story about how much trouble I had getting help with customer service when the person I was talking to was like- "why didn't you call more than once? Why didn't you ask somebody to help you talk to the people at the store?" And since I hadn't even realized that stuff until I was telling the story, I was like "Oh.... yea, I didn't really realize that I had those options! I was just going to wait and be "polite." :pinched: Yeah, no- I was totally relying on an unreliable system because I didn't want to speak up more. In short: passive.
You know I had a similar realization when I was a teen that I would need to take control of my life in a more conscious way if I wanted to accomplish anything. In essence, I needed to accept personal responsibility and assert myself. But there's a definite balance between passivity & aggression. Passiveness isn't bad... sometimes it's better to let go of something trivial than make a big deal out of it. And aggression when misused can really rub people the wrong way and put you in a worse spot. What I've found though, is that injecting a good sense of humor into a situation where you need to be more assertive to get something done can work wonders. If you can make someone laugh & lighten up a little while asking for something, they'll be a lot more inclined to help.

I keep forgetting the polarity factor in my chart! Yep, reacting instead of acting is coded into my chart from a very basic level, eh? Much like a fair few other character traits that I'm working on becoming more aware of so that they don't feel like difficulties instead of just differences. That's life!

And that's an interesting point you make about all of my active-sign planets being hard aspect- I don't think I'd ever looked at it that way before, actually. I think that I'd just assumed that the difficulty of the hard aspects would force these planets to be more active- but maybe that doesn't make so much sense. :innocent:

Yep, that's what I hear about my Water Trine! Emotional Strength and the whole deal- I kind of wish it something that I could actively use, rather than acting more like a fail-safe, but it's not like I can't meditate on that or something! :sideways:
Yeah, and again let me emphasize that I am a child prancing around a library of astrological knowledge. I know just enough to cause some damage, haha.:devil: I'd say that depending on configurations, oppositions & squares can prove very useful. I think of them as an extreme challenge. For many, the challenge is too great, so people go back to their old familiar ways. But if the challenge is overcome & defeated, then the person has learned a lot and their character will have grown considerably. In that sense, hard aspects provide great potential if they can be mastered... like a wild stallion!!

Ha, I won't be getting in any fights, but setting small goals sounds pretty good! Thanks! :biggrin:
LOL... fight club reference (also a good movie for motivation if you feel like Edward Norton's character IRL).:wink:

Oh, quick edit... I also wanted to add that Ilenek gave good advice about journaling yourself. Consider also writing a list of short term & long term goals and crossing them off as you go along. The thing about assertion is that, when practiced, it naturally forces you to become more precise in what it is that you want or must do. A simple goal (in your mind) might be more complex than foreseen, so it breaks up into a series of smaller and more defined goals and so on until the simplest ones can be accomplished.
 
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Silversong

Well-known member
Thanks, IleneK. I needed to read that about my Saturn- I hope to learn to trust in my gifts more. :joyful:

Oh, yes. Inertia is probably a much better word for this behavior of mine. I wonder what else goes with passiveness to complete the picture... But yes, I get very comfortable with leaving things as they are.... It's funny how I want to be ok with that, since it's the natural way I respond to things, but wanting to accept this inertia is in of itself is an expression of that very thing! Really, it's like a perpetual motion machine! :sick: :lol:

Not realizing your points about my personal planets and forgetting to take that top-down approach to my question is definitely one of the side effects of jumping around to answer specific questions :innocent: (In my defense: staying in full student mode gets kind of boring and I would like to be able to look at my chart to answer questions about myself. :whistling: However, I might have been skewing a bit more toward questions rather than maintaining a balance with my self-study lately.)

My Mercury standing in Mars' way and vice versa, Mercury's squares to my Nodes that I haven't even begun to understand (but have realized the role it plays in my purposeless-ness) and my Moon's over-adaptability: it all sounds about right. I'm glad that you point Venus out to me as the freest, relatively speaking. Unfortunately, I don't often feel like I am all that Venusian (not least because I have issues with all the talk about my having a "traditional" sensibility toward love. But really, I haven't had much experience really expressing my Venus nature.) Still, I'm glad to be reminded that Venus has technically escaped the drama that is my other aspect shapes/relationships. :sideways:

Thank you again, IleneK. Being more conscious of my behavior patterns is one of my ultimate goals in learning astrology, and journaling is something that also helps. And I will certainly let you know how it goes! I'd actually begun a bit of journaling since you first suggested it and I find that my biggest obstacle thus far is just recognizing when something needs to go in there! :lol: But I've actually been able to be a bit more aware, so I am just going to keep on regardless of when I forget.
 

Silversong

Well-known member
You know I had a similar realization when I was a teen that I would need to take control of my life in a more conscious way if I wanted to accomplish anything. In essence, I needed to accept personal responsibility and assert myself. But there's a definite balance between passivity & aggression. Passiveness isn't bad... sometimes it's better to let go of something trivial than make a big deal out of it. And aggression when misused can really rub people the wrong way and put you in a worse spot. What I've found though, is that injecting a good sense of humor into a situation where you need to be more assertive to get something done can work wonders. If you can make someone laugh & lighten up a little while asking for something, they'll be a lot more inclined to help.

I like that, thank you- it's nice to build a kind of rapport with people when asking for help, indeed.

:biggrin: I'm in the same place as an astrology student, I understand! I would say that your perspective on the hard aspects is pretty in line with the way they're seen in general, actually. And I am inclined to agree.

Woah, I totally didn't catch on to the Fight Club reference. Thanks for explaining.

Oh, quick edit... I also wanted to add that Ilenek gave good advice about journaling yourself. Consider also writing a list of short term & long term goals and crossing them off as you go along. The thing about assertion is that, when practiced, it naturally forces you to become more precise in what it is that you want or must do. A simple goal (in your mind) might be more complex than foreseen, so it breaks up into a series of smaller and more defined goals and so on until the simplest ones can be accomplished.

Thanks for the advice, Blacknight! I've never been that good at having goals (as silly as that sounds, it's true). It would be good for me to practice at that! :joyful:
 
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