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  #1  
Unread 10-24-2013, 07:35 PM
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Rules, evidence, intuition?

Following up on a recent debate on a missing-person horary thread, I hope to generate a discussion on the extent to which horary astrologers do (or should) follow strict rules of interpretation and evidence, vs. seeing horary as a more intuitive process.

If you follow strict rules, they do vary between authors, so who is your primary authority?

If your rules are more personal or eclectic than widely shared, would your practice actually move your horary astrology into the intuitive camp?

Hoping for an interesting discussion, W.

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Unread 10-24-2013, 11:22 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Very interesting topic!

Maybe we should start from the very beginning of every horary question: CONSIDERATIONS BEFORE JUDGEMENT

I am a student of traditional astrology (and I will still be the student 20 years from now) and so far I've read some of the works of Bonatti, Lilly, Dykes and Frawley. When it comes to CONSIDERATIONS BEFORE JUDGEMENT, I follow Frawley's liberal view. Here is my reasoning:

Nothing in this universe happens by chance or accident. If this universe operates on chance then astrology wouldn't "work" in the first place. From time to time there will be early or late ascendant in the chart, ruler of the ascendant combust, late degree of the Moon etc. and all this so called "considerations" are actually part of the answer rather than some restriction. The universe doesn't stop working, it doesn't say:"Look, I am on coffee break now but if you ask the question half an hour later I will give you the answer". By far most ridiculous "consideration" is the use of planetary hour. Every moment in time has the answer for the question "born" in that particular moment. If someone's natal chart doesn't match the criteria of planetary hour we cannot say that his chart is not radical. Questions are also born, just like people.

That's my view on "considerations". As for the rest, I follow tradition. I find it amusing when "modern" horary artists start to look at every asteroid trying to find the answer.
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  #3  
Unread 10-24-2013, 11:53 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

I think from the moment of casting the Horary chart, the native/astrologer is already following his or her own intuition. Also Moon as the ruler of intuition is the significator of the Horary as always. The chat itself is birth given through the subconsciousness mind which again is the Moon, intuition, birth.
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Last edited by poyi; 10-24-2013 at 11:55 PM.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 12:23 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Bernadette Brady never has published any book regarding to Horary. However in her Predictive Astrology: The Eagle and the Lark. She introduced her book with an analogy of The Eagle and the Lark. It is a very beautiful story to read, to me the meaning of the story is astrologer can achieve a great deal and even reaching the divines through the physical strength of the Eagle (solid techniques) and the voice of the beautiful Lark (aspiration of the soul, our intuition). Only when both the Eagle and Lark work together, one can then reach the Divine and all the unknown of our world.

Part of the story:

Quote:
...The lark had never been this high. She could see the whole world spread out beneath her....Firmly she stood up the eagle's back and, filling her lungs with air began to sing....together as a team they had brought music to the gods.
Inhalation: Inspiration, Exhalation: Aspiration.

Astrology to me is both science and art. You can't be purely just psychic about the readings but you truly can't reach the maximum potential by only following strictly on rules and techniques. But techiques are the foundation of Lark's succeed, she would never reach to the high sky without eagle's physical strength, while through the lark, eagle is no longer ashamed of his limitation of lack of the internal life force from the soul.
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Last edited by poyi; 10-25-2013 at 12:30 AM.
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  #5  
Unread 10-25-2013, 01:02 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

You know, I swore to myself that I wasn't going to get involved in any controversaries anymore, because my Libraness just doesn't like it.

However....

There is a reason there are rules in horary. As in, the rules help the astrologer to answer the question. Oh, I did the whole "my intuition" deal in the beginning (hey, supposedly, my intuition is strong, since I have Moon in Pisces, with Neptune in partile trine to Moon, and a huge 12th house stellium ) Every time I looked at a chart based on my own (which is in the real world seriously sound) "intuition" my answer was wrong. As in incorrect, finito, and which is why I almost gave up on horary. In point of fact, learning the traditional rules of horary, which involve to the truly student sect, reception, and aspect theory, has helped in my study of natal charts. So I suppose I could say that the sidebar by chance has made me a better astrologer.

There is a difference between "intuition" and judgement. And as an "intuitive" which usually means that you can experience the emotions of the querent as your own (waybread at least will get the Deanna Troi reference, and I can unequivocally state that there are times that I honestly need to retreat from everything because it becomes overwhelming), that can actually cloud the judgement. Experiencing the emotions of the querent gets in the way of rationality. And considering astrology as an "intuitive art" or a subjective method of divinitation is in my opinion a slander and misconception of the language. There is a difference between the Psychic Hotline, Tarot, the Ouija Board and astrology.

If we stop treating astrology as an "art" subject to the interpretation (I get realism, and the whole impressionism idea was cool but...lacking) of the practioner, and rather treated it as what it actually is...as in the language of the stars, then we need to respect the rules. How do you interpret language? Do you pay attention to things like subjective and conditional? How do you treat personal pronouns? Are they masculine or feminine? And what about idioms? Once, in French 2 in high school, a very good friend of mine was attempting to say that he was full because he ate too much. Je suis plein does not mean the same thing as J'ai trop mange. One means I ate enough, and the other means...well do the work.

It does not, in the end, matter if you wish to follow the rules for horary (though I often find it seriously ironic that many, many modern natal astrologers will default to traditional methods for horary...I'm all like...jeez, why one and not the other??) or if you wish to just help a querent with a natal chart. Sect, sign position, degree, quadrant, applying or separating, house/sign rulership, aspect theory...these all are nothing more than the extra tools that can take either an horarist or any astrologer from good to amazing.

I expect that many will disagree, and I'm ok with other people "feeling" or "intuiting" the way that they will. I'm tired of being told that my opinions don't count, or that I don't understand anything. I understand much, and have learned much. It is ok to disagree. One needn't participate in all the arguments to which one is invited.

tamara
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  #6  
Unread 10-25-2013, 02:40 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Really interesting comments, everyone! My hope is to stimulate a discussion, not to generate a food-fight here.

Cap, I've not read Frawley's book. I got so annoyed with his parody of modern astrology a few years ago that I don't want to give this man any royalties. Which isn't to say that his horary book couldn't be excellent.

But is the situation with the "considerations" as he's described it? To say that an ascendant degree is too early or too late, for example, shouldn't necessarily imply that the universe has somehow stopped working and gone on coffee break. Rather, that the universe does not always reveal itself to the human mind, simply because we ask that it do so. I read the strictures as suggesting that, while the universe will unfold as it does, the astrologer's ability to discern it may be faulty at particular times.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 03:32 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Yes, I follow strict rules of horary interpretation which actually are quite mechanical and leave little room for variable interpretation.
HOWEVER!! These rules are of the long-forgotten oldtime Ottoman astrology approach to horary which I learned as an oral tradition, and which I have come to refer to as "Ankara horary". They are fairly similar to the horary practices of pre-Bonatti, Islamic transitional era authors (some of which we now have in English translation) but are often quite different than the generally accepted rules of Western horary methodology which has evolved subsequent to Bonatti and Lilly, and which is known as "standard horary practice".
I shall add that in all my approaches to astrologically-based prediction, I use very little intuition, and prefer the more "mechanical" predictive models.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 03:59 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

It's a breath mint.

It's a candy mint.

Stop! You're both right. It's two mints in one! (am I dating myself with this old Certs commercial?)

Why does anybody have to have it ONLY one way? To argue one over the other is wasted energy. Normal is what is normal for you. Results are what we are looking for. Even at that, what may work in one situation might not work as successfully the next time. It's just the way it is.

IMHO - the astrology chart (horary, natal, composite or whatever...) is a portal which aids us in a transcendental process of "tuning in" to insight and information that exists just outside the range of our animal brain's normal range of functioning. By activating "intent" we trigger a process of focus which is aided by both logical methods of analysis AND the intuitive magic to extract, interpret and understand meaning from what our attention is focused on. The fact that some rely more so or less on "scientific methodology" is simply a matter of personal preference which is supported by the results. If either method were hands down that much better for ALL ASTROLOGERS, it would have been evident a long time ago and the discussion would be mute. For that reason alone there should be no debate, just sharing methods and techniques to teach each other and to progress astrological understanding.

To one and all... For the sake of personal balance remain open to what you don't yet know. Remember, bones aren't the only part of the body that becomes stiff and inflexible over time. A qualifying comment I've always tried to include with any "reading" I've ever given is, "The element of error is not with astrology. It lies in the human ability to understand and interpret the information that exists in the medium." And I would also add that; part of the responsibility to "interpret and understand" lies with the client as well, in how they then translate the information the astrologer provides them with. From the get-go we have the "human factor" X 2 weighing in to scramble the essence of meaning. So, there is Art to astrology, especially in the way communication is expressed and understood.

So, do what you do, and when a chart speaks to your intuition and it "feels right," go with it... but check it against a practical methodology. Those times when intuition doesn't jump out and scream at you, use the "tools" of analysis and go through it step by step... then question, do your results "feel" right?

It is actually two mints in one
A*L
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  #9  
Unread 10-25-2013, 04:14 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

To think about that Eagle is much bigger in size than the Lark.

I think the mechanical interpretation as following the technique of flying high like the Eagle will be the major proportion of it. The reader can reach a perfect A score like the Eagle with the penetrating eye sights but for the Lark that little tiny bird with that inborn beautiful voice can add to the extra A+. But one must exalted the flying techniques to start with, however, that little lark's voice unlike the hard working practices most people can achieve through time and mental intelligence, Lark's voice would need to come from some kind of blessing. But then again, Lark can only achieve her goal through Eagle and stood on his back to sing her song.

The style of Speculation in astrology, perhaps is related to your natal 5th house.
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  #10  
Unread 10-25-2013, 02:33 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Cap, I've not read Frawley's book. I got so annoyed with his parody of modern astrology a few years ago that I don't want to give this man any royalties. Which isn't to say that his horary book couldn't be excellent.
His method is very simple and he's cutting off all unnecessary considerations in order to reach simple YES or NO. I am using his method most of the time and I have 90% success (confirmed). Of course, I will try to make it 99%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
But is the situation with the "considerations" as he's described it? To say that an ascendant degree is too early or too late, for example, shouldn't necessarily imply that the universe has somehow stopped working and gone on coffee break. Rather, that the universe does not always reveal itself to the human mind, simply because we ask that it do so. I read the strictures as suggesting that, while the universe will unfold as it does, the astrologer's ability to discern it may be faulty at particular times.
Here are short excerpts from his book:

...In ages past, when the astrologer was working for the king, upsetting his employer with an unpleasing judgement could be fatal. But twisting the judgement to give a pleasing answer was little better an option, as events would soon show that the judgement was wrong. The astrologer needed a diplomatic way of fending off unwelcome questions, so a list of 'considerations before judgement' was developed. This list is sufficiently comprehensive to ensure that it gives an excuse for not judging any chart that might endanger the astrologer. When a king whom not even his mother could love asked, 'Does the princess of the next country love me?' the astrologer could draw up the chart, confident he would find Saturn in 7th house, or Lord 7 debilitated, or fewer than 3 degrees (some lists state 5) or more than 27 degrees of a sign on the Ascendant, or, or, or...

...There are astrologers who make much of them, deliberating long over whether a chart is 'radical' by which they mean 'capable of being judged'. These astrologers have their own translation of that famous Hermetic dictum, running 'As above, as every now and again so below'. Every chart can be judged. Astrology does not stop working...

Last edited by Cap; 10-25-2013 at 02:47 PM.
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  #11  
Unread 10-25-2013, 02:47 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

I generally follow the rules set out by Ivy Goldstein Jacobson in her big book on Horary, and lots in the smaller books.

I look to see where the ASC is, whether the Moon is VOC, and whether there is a Ptolemaic aspect between the ruler of the ASC and the ruler of the house in the question.

I don't respond to questions that are asked by other people for someone else, or questions that are not deeply personal, meaning that lots of people could ask them. When lots of people could ask the same question, then we get into a multiple birth times conundrum which makes the question invalid. Only the person who is the greatest affected by the issue can ask the question, IMO.

IMO, most questions can be easily looked at by simply looking at the actions of the Moon.

I start with the Moon. In this forum, I usually don't have to get any more complicated than that.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 02:58 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
. Sect, sign position, degree, quadrant, applying or separating, house/sign rulership, aspect theory...these all are nothing more than the extra tools that can take either an horarist or any astrologer from good to amazing.

tamara
My experience in beginning to learn about these elements, as well as your remarkable delineations using these tools, leads me to believe this is really true.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 03:08 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
I look to see where the ASC is, whether the Moon is VOC, and whether there is a Ptolemaic aspect between the ruler of the ASC and the ruler of the house in the question.
That is the essence of Frawley's approach also.

Dignity shows power to act
Reception shows inclination to act
Aspect shows occasion to act


The chart without an aspect rarely indicates YES.

Last edited by Cap; 10-25-2013 at 03:12 PM.
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  #14  
Unread 10-25-2013, 06:43 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap View Post
His method is very simple and he's cutting off all unnecessary considerations in order to reach simple YES or NO. I am using his method most of the time and I have 90% success (confirmed). Of course, I will try to make it 99%.



Here are short excerpts from his book:

...In ages past, when the astrologer was working for the king, upsetting his employer with an unpleasing judgement could be fatal. But twisting the judgement to give a pleasing answer was little better an option, as events would soon show that the judgement was wrong. The astrologer needed a diplomatic way of fending off unwelcome questions, so a list of 'considerations before judgement' was developed. This list is sufficiently comprehensive to ensure that it gives an excuse for not judging any chart that might endanger the astrologer. When a king whom not even his mother could love asked, 'Does the princess of the next country love me?' the astrologer could draw up the chart, confident he would find Saturn in 7th house, or Lord 7 debilitated, or fewer than 3 degrees (some lists state 5) or more than 27 degrees of a sign on the Ascendant, or, or, or...

...There are astrologers who make much of them, deliberating long over whether a chart is 'radical' by which they mean 'capable of being judged'. These astrologers have their own translation of that famous Hermetic dictum, running 'As above, as every now and again so below'. Every chart can be judged. Astrology does not stop working...
Cap, I have seen this "off with his head" explanation for ignoring the considerations before judgment from other sources, but I wonder: where does Frawley give any evidence that this was actually the case? We know about astro-executions in Roman times, but these pre-date the development of horary astrology. Is Frawley's rationale just speculative, make-believe "history"?

We do know that most astrologers in the past were not court astrologers. (Campion's 2-volume history of astrology) For those who were, an absolute monarch could just as easily execute them for refusing to give a judgment as for giving a bad one.

Lilly seems to have been a strong proponent of considerations before judgment, who also claimed a high success rate. He lived in turbulent times but was never a court astrologer, so far as I know.

Again, it isn't that the heavens stop working. The chart is in the hands of an astrologer whose discernment may become clouded.
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Last edited by waybread; 10-25-2013 at 06:49 PM.
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Unread 10-26-2013, 03:20 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

From my reading of the earlier horarists (Vedic from the 6th century and the pioneers of Western horary during the early to mid Islamic transitional era) I have found very little emphasis among these authors upon considerations before judgement (strictures) In my opinion, such considerations grew from about the time of Bonatti, increasingly through the time of Lilly, and then continued on in Western horary subsequent to Lilly's time, into the present.

Now, maybe the developing emphasis on these considerations before judgement represent an evolution, a further perfecting of the horary art. Could be!
But I have not followed them at all* (indeed the only real stricture I follow-not judging a horary if the SN rises in the ascending sign-is NOT a recognized stricture in standard horary!!) andyet I have obtained a very satisfactory record of accurate horary delineations (predictions) over the years...


*although not recognized by horary authors prior to Bonatti, nonetheless I admit to following a modification of the early/late ascendant consideration first advocated by Bonatti: for me, I generally choose not to attempt to delineate a horary if the ascendant degree is less than 1 or more than 29 (because I feel the cosmic currents are in a state of flux at such times and so I tend to believe that the indications under such circumstances might be unreliable)
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Unread 10-26-2013, 07:43 AM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Astrology is an art? yes, why not? But I don't know any art existing without rules and real work from them. That makes this art to become nearer and nearer to be a science. Every science has a beginning, and the rules are these.

The rules are the instruments of the technic, they give a real method while only intuition is given only by what you have been inspired in the moment. But who are you in that special moment? Yes, all scientific know it: in the science there is firstly the knowledge (and you know that nobody possesses the total-knowledge) and secondly the tool which you apply and thirdly the person who manipulate with the tools which make him able to work with his selected knowledge. Therefore the rules are the boundaries allowing every scientific work to be mostly objectiv and to be controlled by others.

In other words: you have to be able to show your path - how could you do it with intuition?
For me I understood after the starting point of our question/problem, that there is ... a little ... brake for learning and learning - but perhaps, hopefully, I am wrong ....?
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Unread 10-26-2013, 06:25 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Cap, I have seen this "off with his head" explanation for ignoring the considerations before judgment from other sources, but I wonder: where does Frawley give any evidence that this was actually the case? We know about astro-executions in Roman times, but these pre-date the development of horary astrology. Is Frawley's rationale just speculative, make-believe "history"?
We do know that most astrologers in the past were not court astrologers. (Campion's 2-volume history of astrology) For those who were, an absolute monarch could just as easily execute them for refusing to give a judgment as for giving a bad one.
Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, you, me and even Frawley. He didn't make any historical claims, he just expressed his view on considerations before judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Lilly seems to have been a strong proponent of considerations before judgment, who also claimed a high success rate. He lived in turbulent times but was never a court astrologer, so far as I know.
More than a half of charts in Lilly's CA were not "radical" by Lilly's own standards of "radicality". He taught one thing but practised another. You can find the complete list here:

http://beachastrologer.blogspot.com/...-mr-lilly.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Again, it isn't that the heavens stop working. The chart is in the hands of an astrologer whose discernment may become clouded.
If you think that finding Saturn in 7th house will somehow cloud your judgement then, by all means, don't judge that chart. My opinion is that, in such case, Saturn is just where he should be in order to provide an accurate answer for the question asked. Everybody has to decide for themselves.

One more thing, astrologers are allowed to be wrong from time to time. Today, there are no more evil kings who will execute us on account of the wrong judgement. Sometimes people tend to forget how great and magnificent thing is to be able to predict the future. Who could blame us for wrong prediction?
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Unread 10-26-2013, 07:04 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
Astrology is an art? yes, why not? But I don't know any art existing without rules and real work from them. That makes this art to become nearer and nearer to be a science. Every science has a beginning, and the rules are these.

The rules are the instruments of the technic, they give a real method while only intuition is given only by what you have been inspired in the moment. But who are you in that special moment? Yes, all scientific know it: in the science there is firstly the knowledge (and you know that nobody possesses the total-knowledge) and secondly the tool which you apply and thirdly the person who manipulate with the tools which make him able to work with his selected knowledge. Therefore the rules are the boundaries allowing every scientific work to be mostly objectiv and to be controlled by others.

In other words: you have to be able to show your path - how could you do it with intuition?
For me I understood after the starting point of our question/problem, that there is ... a little ... brake for learning and learning - but perhaps, hopefully, I am wrong ....?
Example of Ancient Rules of Art For Painters

There are three Primary colors
Red
Blue
Yellow

When Green is required
Mix Yellow plus Blue = Green

When Orange is required
Mix Yellow plus Red = Orange

When Purple is required
Mix Red plus Blue = Purple

Those are basic Rules of the Art of Painting


Astrology
irrespective of whether Art or Science
necessarily has rules as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Bonatti defines it very clearly.

It doesn't matter what I think.

The Rules are The Rules.

The first step in Horary is to receive the Question.

The second step is to cast the chart.

Step #3 is identifying the Hour Ruler.

Step #4 is using the Hour Ruler -- that you identified in Step #3 --- to determine if the chart is Radical.

A non-Radical Chart cannot be read.

Note that Strictures have nothing to do with whether or not a chart is Radical. Strictures are merely advisories and warnings to the astrologer to very carefully weigh all factors, as it relates to the Stricture.

Aside from that, it's easy to tell if a Question is frivolous.....just read the Chart.

The Querent is the least qualified to determine if a question is frivolous, if for no other reason than the Querent is biased/prejudiced.

In a Perfect World™ the Querent would consult with the astrologer. The astrologer would ask questions to both help the Querent identify exactly what it is they would like to know, and to determine if the Querent has the authority to ask the question in the first place.

And the reason is so the astrologer can assign the correct significators.

If a woman tells a man, "Go to the astrologer and see if I am pregnant," then the man is a proxy for the True Querent and you use the 1st House, but if a man asks simply because he suspects, then he still gets the 1st House -- since he is the True Querent -- but the woman is the 7th House.

Also, on the issue of having authority to even ask a question, many professional astrologer associations prohibit 3rd Party Questions, unless the persons involved have signed a written release form granting permission.

"I wanna know what my 'Ex' (whatever) is doing...
."....fine, but if your "Ex" wanted you to know what they were doing, they would have called, faxed, texted or sent (via priority mail) a detailed itinerary, and since they haven't, then you'll have to call your "Ex" and ask them what they are doing, because you can't use Horary for that.

In the US and Canada, if you do an unauthorized 3rd Party Horary for Suzy Psycho or Willy Wife-Beater or Chester the Child-Molester and something happens, you as the astrologer are civilly liable.

Depending on the exact State or Province, you could be held criminally liable, too.

So, yeah, sure, to a Stalker, the question of where is my "Ex" and what are they doing (so they can hunt them down and stalk them) is probably important to them,..... but the question is still frivolous.

One is not allowed to know things for the sake of knowing.

You're entitled to know something, if, and only if, it has a substantial impact on you, and "substantial impact" is defined by the most rational person, not the least rational
.
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  #19  
Unread 10-26-2013, 07:11 PM
Harold Harold is offline
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Example of Ancient Rules of Art For Painters

There are three Primary colors
Red
Blue
Yellow

When Green is required
Mix Yellow plus Blue = Green

When Orange is required
Mix Yellow plus Red = Orange

When Purple is required
Mix Red plus Blue = Purple

Those are basic Rules of the Art of Painting
But do you have to know those rules to be a great artist?

If you do, why are astrologers called "artists"?
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  #20  
Unread 10-26-2013, 07:26 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold View Post
But do you have to know those rules to be a great artist?
Assuming the question is rhetorical,
Can a great artist produce Green by mixing Red and Blue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold View Post
If you do, why are astrologers called "artists"?
If a great artist can produce the color Green by mixing Red and Blue then that particular great artist obviously has no need of Rules
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  #21  
Unread 10-26-2013, 07:43 PM
Harold Harold is offline
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Assuming the question is rhetorical,
Can a great artist produce Green by mixing Red and Blue?
So, an artist can never be great unless he can paint in green....?

I think you are missing the point. Great art is not about knowing how to mix colours. Its about how you use what you have to reveal a truth through your chosen medium.

Horary astrology is about letting a chart reveal the truth about a given situation through your interpretation of the chart. Sure, there are the rules. . . . but great astrology is much more than just the rules.

Beyond the rules, there is the art.
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  #22  
Unread 10-26-2013, 07:51 PM
Sunny Sunny is offline
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Example of Ancient Rules of Art For Painters

There are three Primary colors
Red
Blue
Yellow

When Green is required
Mix Yellow plus Blue = Green

When Orange is required
Mix Yellow plus Red = Orange

When Purple is required
Mix Red plus Blue = Purple

Those are basic Rules of the Art of Painting


Astrology
irrespective of whether Art or Science
necessarily has rules as well
Yes, so it is. If I have not been clear: there is no art without rules.
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  #23  
Unread 10-26-2013, 07:56 PM
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Cap, thanks.

Most professional historians would take exception to the idea that, where facts are available, uninformed opinion or sheer speculation is a reasonable substitute!

Thanks for the link-- Deborah Houlding has a comparable article on the differences between Lilly's explanation of reception and his actual usage at: receptionhttp://www.skyscript.co.uk/reception.html
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  #24  
Unread 10-27-2013, 07:14 PM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

This article on the history of terms in astrology may be of interest. Rules, yes-- but whose?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/Hould...lemy_terms.pdf
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #25  
Unread 10-28-2013, 03:47 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Rules, evidence, intuition?

Right about terms!! Ptolemy himself talked about previous Egyptian and Chaldean term systems, and then went on to modify yet another system of terms ("taken from an old book" ) into what became the Ptolemaic terms. Manilius (before Ptolemy) suggested yet another system of terms based on 1/2 degree sections of a sign via duodenary division (see Gould's introduction to the Astronomica) Then there were the terms of Astaurus (mentioned by al-Biruni), a system of Hindu terms (described in al-Biruni's "Elements") and then Lilly's reworking of Ptolemy's terms!
So we have (historically):
Chaldean-Egyptian-Manilius-Ptolemaic-Astaurus-Hindu-and reworked (Lilly) Ptolemaic systems of terms. And they are ALL different!

I gave up using term systems for any purpose, years ago: I use that most ancient system of planetary monomoiria (dating to early Hellenist times) which has always been the same and consistent, and includes ALL the planets (does not exclude the luminaries, which all systems of terms do: note that when using any system of terms one is mechanically discriminating against the Sun and the Moon in arriving at essential dignity: Sun and Moon can score essential dignity by domicile, exaltation, triplicity and face but are automatically excluded from scoring essential dignity by term: puts Sun and Moon at a 20% disadvantage to the other 5 planets in scoring essential dignity and increases the potential for Sun and Moon to be peregrine by 20% over the other 5 planets!! Using monomoiria instead of terms, eliminates this mechanical essential-dignity bias against Sun and Moon...but of course no authority has "authorized" use of monomoiria instead of term systems over the past 1500 years, so it would not be "...traditional..."to do so...)

Last edited by dr. farr; 10-28-2013 at 03:49 AM.
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