Orb-influence

petosiris

Banned
There's a 10 degree overlap, 5 degrees on one side of a Sign-boundary and 5 degrees on the other. Each Sign becomes an unblended Sign-variety for its middle 20 degrees, then begins blending again with the qualities of the next Sign. The rulership, however, remains constant within the boundaries of a Sign. Mars, for example, is Domicle-ruler of Aries in both its blended and unblended portions.

Give some natural arguments that should overrule the markers of the equinoxes and solstices, where the planets visibly change directions and which are given to us by nature. :annoyed:
 

david starling

Well-known member
Give some natural arguments that should overrule the markers of the equinoxes and solstices, where the planets visibly change directions and which are given to us by nature. :annoyed:

I use the Equinoxes and Solstices to locate the first points of the Cardinal-signs. The other Sign-boundaries are measured from those.
 

david starling

Well-known member
So you don't consider the first degree of Aries also Pisces now?

Tropically, Aries is a measured, 30 degree interval along the Ecliptic. It's the Domicle of Mars, from its first-point boundary, located at the line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes, to the next Sign-boundary, which is a measured 30 degrees away.
 

petosiris

Banned
Tropically, Aries is a measured, 30 degree interval along the Ecliptic. It's the Domicle of Mars, from its first-point boundary, located at the line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes, to the next Sign-boundary, which is a measured 30 degrees away.

''There's a 10 degree overlap, 5 degrees on one side of a Sign-boundary and 5 degrees on the other. Each Sign becomes an unblended Sign-variety for its middle 20 degrees, then begins blending again with the qualities of the next Sign. The rulership, however, remains constant within the boundaries of a Sign. Mars, for example, is Domicle-ruler of Aries in both its blended and unblended portions.''

That makes no sense. If the beginning of Aries is influenced by Pisces, then it has to have its three rulers - Jupiter, Mars and Venus also ruling along with the Sun, Jupiter and Mars. A sign and its ruler(s) are very similar thing:

I have a theory that the degrees of the zodiac are related to their rulers only accidentally and by affinity. It seems more logical to me that Aquarius is a wintry portion of the zodiac that causes cold weather that is similar to Saturn rather than Saturn mystically ruling it and it itself causing the cold weather. Thus the rulership is only a useful metaphor, since the placement of the ruler influences the same weather, and ambient at the moment of the birth, whether favourably or unfavourably. The same should be true in the case of the fixed stars, no one should be baffled by the fact that some distant star exerts similar influence to that of an admixture of the planets in the solar system - for example Sirius has an effect similar to Jupiter and moderately Mars.

I believe that Ptolemy is saying the same thing in the following passage:
''and let us remember that in the combinations, again, we must consider not only the mixture of the planets one with another, but also their combination with the others that share in the same nature, whether they be fixed stars or signs of the zodiac, by virtue of their affinities with the planets, already set forth'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2B*.html#8

According to Bouché-Leclercq there is some evidence to suggest that some philosophers thought that Saturn itself causes the wintry weather of Capricorn and Aquarius, which he is quick to berate, though I believe their investigation of the affinity may have been way more subtle than that.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Mars is most effective in the middle 20 degrees. Aries first contains Piscean qualities mixed in with its own, decreasing to none by the 5th degree. It has Taurean qualities mixed in with its own beginning at 25 degrees and increasing towards the next boundary. In both cases, the qualities of Aries are dominant, regardless of the amount of blending. The rulerships of Pisces and Taurus aren't automatically included. Signs don't activate rulers, they impart qualities to them.
 

petosiris

Banned
Mars is most effective in the middle 20 degrees. Aries first contains Piscean qualities mixed in with its own, decreasing to none by the 5th degree. It has Taurean qualities mixed in with its own beginning at 25 degrees and increasing towards the next boundary. In both cases, the qualities of Aries are dominant, regardless of the amount of blending. The rulerships of Pisces and Taurus aren't automatically included. Signs don't activate rulers, they impart qualities to them.

Why 5? Why not 3 or 10 degrees of blending? :smile:
 

david starling

Well-known member
Why 5? Why not 3 or 10 degrees of blending? :smile:

Good question. I've considered both 3 and 6 degrees. I0 degrees would be excessive. It's the concept of Sign-blending that's important to the continuum, not the exact number of degrees. The transition has to be at least somewhat gradual, rather than an abrupt stop and start.
 

petosiris

Banned
Peto, what Orb are you using for the Moon and Sun?

I use the most wide 15° range on each side for all aspects. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1017699&postcount=15

Sounds more modern than traditional (bar the range of course), but Hellenistic astrologers didn't have orbs for the planets either. Some (Paulus, Olympiodorus and commentators on Ptolemy) mention these ranges for aspects (1, 3, 7 and 15) within signs, I use them regardless of sign boundaries.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Good question. I've considered both 3 and 6 degrees. I0 degrees would be excessive. It's the concept of Sign-blending that's important to the continuum, not the exact number of degrees. The transition has to be at least somewhat gradual, rather than an abrupt stop and start.

You have no idea, because nature has given a map and four markers for exactly 12 places with abrupt stop and start (of the four elements and their movable, fixed and dual qualities, not of the particular daylight or admixtures, which are truly continuous).
 

david starling

Well-known member
You have no idea, because nature has given a map and four markers for exactly 12 places with abrupt stop and start (of the four elements and their movable, fixed and dual qualities, not of the particular daylight or admixtures, which are truly continuous).

I'm not saying there aren't astronomically-discernable Sign-boundaries in tropical astrology for the Cardinal-signs. But they have Seasonal qualities, and the Seasons naturally blend, they don't stop and start abruptly. The planets display both Direct and Retrograde movement. A planet can enter a Cardinal season, then move back into the previous Seasonal quadrant.
 

petosiris

Banned
I'm not saying there aren't astronomically-discernable Sign-boundaries in tropical astrology for the Cardinal-signs. But they have Seasonal qualities, and the Seasons naturally blend, they don't stop and start abruptly. The planets display both Direct and Retrograde movement. A planet can enter a Cardinal season, then move back into the previous Seasonal quadrant.

Astronomically seasons DO NOT BLEND.
 

petosiris

Banned
But, the natural effects of seasons do.

This is taken into consideration with the different qualities of the twelve signs. :smile:

L3l6OD2.png
 

petosiris

Banned
Now astrology doesn't deal with the sublunar climate and the terrain per se, only the cosmobiological ambient that affects it. Although the seasonal lag is about a month (thus the solid sign is placed in the middle) for most temperate regions, it may be almost half as much for polar regions and over twice as much for oceanic regions.
 
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