What is your opinion of the Whole Signs house system on natal charts?

jollyzal

jollyzal

Banned
Have you guys tried using that house system when reading a natal chart? A 12th house Mercury is definitely not the same as a 11th house Mercury. The planet rules the same house in both cases, but the meaning changes. Not to mention it also changes how strong a planet can act. There isn't a definitive and "correct" house system is there? In theory, in a person's chart, these planets all have the same energies and interact between them in the same way, except those energies are expressed in other areas of life.

In my own case I've found it difficult to say which one is correct, since in both cases I have a very strong Jupiterian, 9th house influence. My Sun is in the 9th in Placidus but in the 10th in the Whole Signs system. In a person's life, one's own higher studies (9th house) can trascend into one's job (10th house). How can you stop generalizing? How can you know what's the clear difference between a Sun-Jup in the 9th and a Sun-Jup in the 10th? Also, a Sun-Jup in the 10th is obviously stronger than a Sun-Jup in the 9th. What do you do in this case? I've also seen people who say Placidus is more psychology-based and Whole-Signs is more reality based. This is really vague as well. You can just say "Oh you have Jupiter in the 9th house in the placidus system so you're very enthusiastic about learning". And then they tell the astrologer they are teachers. "Oh yeah, that's because the results of that learning enthusiasm is getting a job as a teacher". If they told them that they're enthusiastic about learning but NOT a teacher then it would be fine as well and it would make "sense"
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
jollyzal said:
Have you guys tried using that house system when reading a natal chart?
A 12th house Mercury is definitely not the same as a 11th house Mercury.
The planet rules the same house in both cases, but the meaning changes.
Not to mention it also changes how strong a planet can act.
There isn't a definitive and "correct" house system is there?
In theory, in a person's chart, these planets all have the same energies
and interact between them in the same way,
except those energies are expressed in other areas of life.
In my own case I've found it difficult to say which one is correct,
since in both cases I have a very strong Jupiterian, 9th house influence.
My Sun is in the 9th in Placidus but in the 10th in the Whole Signs system.
In a person's life, one's own higher studies (9th house) can trascend into one's job (10th house)
Click to expand...
In order to gauge strength by angularity
Some astrologers use BOTH Whole Sign AND Placidus

because

Not all 10th house Sun-Jupiter conjunctions
remain 10th house when using Whole Sign
then change to 9th when using Placidus

however

SOME 10th House Sun-Jupiter conjunctions
do remain 10th house when using BOTH Whole Sign AND Placidus :smile:

clearly then
a 10th house Sun-Jupiter conjunction
that remains 10th house when using BOTH Whole Sign AND Placidus
is stronger by house placement
than a conjunction of Sun and Jupiter that is 10th house when using Whole Sign
but 9th house using Placidus

jollyzal said:
How can you stop generalizing?
Click to expand...
Certainly, generalisation is fun but unreliable
jollyzal said:
How can you know what's the clear difference between a Sun-Jup in the 9th and a Sun-Jup in the 10th?
Also, a Sun-Jup in the 10th is obviously stronger than a Sun-Jup in the 9th.
What do you do in this case?
I've also seen people who say Placidus is more psychology-based and Whole-Signs is more reality based.
This is really vague as well.
You can just say "Oh you have Jupiter in the 9th house in the placidus system so you're very enthusiastic about learning".
And then they tell the astrologer they are teachers.
"Oh yeah, that's because the results of that learning enthusiasm is getting a job as a teacher".
If they told them that they're enthusiastic about learning
but NOT a teacher
then it would be fine as well and it would make "sense"
Click to expand...
Keep in mind
that Sun-Jupiter conjunctions vary in strength
dependent on numerous factors
not only on house placement
SIGN placement
whether CAZIMI or not
aspects
and so on
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Usually I use Placidus, but if I don't "get" a chart in Placidus I will try other house systems, notably whole signs. I agree with member Alice McDermott (www.aliceportman.com) that different people respond differently to different house systems. So there's no single best house system for everyone.

Sometimes when you don't have an accurate birth time it's best to use a system that doesn't imply a lot of sensitivity to time in the placement of house cusps.

Where it gets dicey is with a late degree rising, because whole signs can move planets significantly into different houses compared with quadrant house systems.
 
conspiracy theorist

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
If we are going to pick the house system based on how much the placements fits your life, then I would personally go with the chart that puts my Mercury in the 1st and Moon in the 3rd -- which would mean whole signs for me. Self-actualization is a big goal in my life and I would say Sun in the 1st is a testament to this. I have a strong sense of boundaries and self that belies having 3 planets in the 12th house. I'm an introvert though and I know this doesn't necessarily point to the 12th house, but the one thing I definitely agree with is that I want a lot of alone time.

So my opinion is that whole signs has a lot of merit in natal chart readings as I've also given readings in whole signs that were pertinent to people and the content of their life. I use quadrant mostly out of habit.

And there is the other option of combining the two as well.
 
graay ghost

graay ghost

Well-known member
Sometimes I like to use whole house with Placidus cusps as the strongest point of the house (meaning that, yes, sometimes the strongest point of a house is outside the house). Though honestly I'm not sure whole house works very well for people with late ASC degrees. The ASC may still describe them but the planets in early degrees still seem to have a house 12 flavor, or at least not a house 1 flavor.
 
conspiracy theorist

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
graay ghost said:
Sometimes I like to use whole house with Placidus cusps as the strongest point of the house (meaning that, yes, sometimes the strongest point of a house is outside the house). Though honestly I'm not sure whole house works very well for people with late ASC degrees. The ASC may still describe them but the planets in early degrees still seem to have a house 12 flavor, or at least not a house 1 flavor.
Click to expand...

I have a late ASC and I actually can see my 12th house planets manifesting in a 1st house way, but I'm unsure how much this has to do with L1 in 1 and disposing all the Sagittarius and Pisces. It's a conundrum that won't be solve for now, I feel.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
duenderoja said:
"My Sun is in the 9th in Placidus but in the 10th in the Whole Signs system."
Click to expand...
nevertheless
jollyzal also states: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=661626#post661626

"My Jupiter is 24 minutes off of the Sun."
quite clearly Sun and Jupiter are in the same house :smile:
what interests jollyzal is the fact that Placidus places that Sun-Jupiter conjunction in 9th house
but in 10th house using whole signs
jollyzal said:
Wait, wasn't cazimi within 17 minutes of distance from the Sun?

My Jupiter is 24 minutes off of the Sun.

I know some people consider it to be a whole degree.
However in this so called "Ascensional" chart (it was invented in Argentina I believe)
my Jupiter is only 3 seconds off of my Sun.
I don't know if that counts.
And thanks for the compliment related to math,
but I learned all of that thanks to my bro when I was in that really hard school.
I was forced to do that or else I wouldn't have been able to get good grades.
Click to expand...
 
duenderoja

duenderoja

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
nevertheless
jollyzal also states: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=661626#post661626

"My Jupiter is 24 minutes off of the Sun."
quite clearly Sun and Jupiter are in the same house :smile:
what interests jollyzal is the fact that Placidus places that Sun-Jupiter conjunction in 9th house
but in 10th house using whole signs
Click to expand...

Jupiter, this was my point. Leo ruler in the ninth house has a very different interpretation than Leo ruler in the 10th house. Etc for Jupiter.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
duenderoja said:
Jupiter, this was my point.
Leo ruler in the ninth house has a very different interpretation than Leo ruler in the 10th house.
Etc for Jupiter.
Click to expand...
and that's jollyzals point :smile:

i.e.

jollyzal said:
In my own case I've found it difficult to say which one is correct,
since in both cases I have a very strong Jupiterian, 9th house influence.
My Sun is in the 9th in Placidus but in the 10th in the Whole Signs system.
In a person's life, one's own higher studies (9th house) can trascend into one's job (10th house).
How can you stop generalizing?
How can you know what's the clear difference between a Sun-Jup in the 9th and a Sun-Jup in the 10th?
Click to expand...
 
duenderoja

duenderoja

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
and that's jollyzals point :smile:

i.e.
Click to expand...

No, you still misunderstand. But I suppose it is a difference between Western and Vedic reading.

What I told the original poster to do in my first post that you corrected – was to look up the interpretations of whatever house Leo rules in the ninth versus the 10th house. Same for Jupiter.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
duenderoja said:
No, you still misunderstand.
But I suppose it is a difference between Western and Vedic reading.
Click to expand...
The discussion so far is clearly Western Tropical
and your comments relate to Sidereal Vedic
presumably you are a Vedic astrologer
In which case jollyzals natal chart planets as seen on that thread linked to
are in sidereal signs :smile:

However this thread is General Astrology
so Vedic as well as Tropical are discussable
 
duenderoja

duenderoja

Well-known member
This type of reading is not locked to one zodiac. It is a method that anyone can use.

[deleted off-topic comment - Moderator]
 
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jollyzal

jollyzal

Banned
I personally use Western astrology. I've tried Vedic, but I just don't identify myself with it at all. I don't feel Pisces Sun at all.
 
sibylline

sibylline

Well-known member
It's fine if anyone else uses them but I don't use whole signs for natal charts. I've had success with Placidus and other quadrant houses. Personally all of my planets except for one, Uranus, are in the same houses no matter the house system but based on that one I would say I agree more with its position in Placidus. For other people where multiple planets change houses Placidus still makes far and away more sense, and they agree with the Placidus readings.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
If someone has an early degree rising and isn't born at a high latitude, whole signs could easily come out much like Placidus. This doesn't match so well for late degree ascendant charts, or for high latitude births.
 
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