Retrogrades

How do you think of retrogrades? I've been reading up on them, and most descriptions point to being past-oriented, inward directed energy, karmic life experience and subjective.

I have 6 retrograde planets in my chart: Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

From what I can tell it affects the expression of energies a lot.

When i was four I had a fight with my mother, and yelled the classic child argument of "but it isn't fair!" and my mother replied, "Life isn't fair!" My mother tells me the color drained from my face and with a look of absolute horror I said, "I'm in the wrong place." and then turned and walked away in a daze. That sums things up pretty well.

What do retrogrades mean to you and how do you think it manifests in your chart if you have them? If anyone also has a large number of them, I'm especially interested in your thoughts!

First, with six planets retrograde, introversion is powerful.

Second, Mars is the planet least often Rx (along with Venus; when Mars or Venus is Rx in a chart [it happens in only about 8% of all charts], then it must be an important component of the psyche.) On this count (retrogradation), Mars is asking us to look deeply at his significance in your chart.

Retrogradation, astronomically, shows a planet that is moving counter to the normal flow of things; it is swimming against the current; it is going back to where it has already been; and it is "turning in" (back) on itself. So you can see where the meanings you have mentioned come from. Astrology is based on the apparent sky (retrogradation is apparent, not "real") and works by analogy. This means that you can take any symbol (retrograde motion is a symbol, just as the planets, signs, aspect, etc. are) and, by use of analogy, figure out what it "means" in the chart.

A chart such as yours, with six retrogrades, suggests a life (destiny) in which progress or success in the outer world comes, if at all, at a high price, with much struggle, with many setbacks, causing one to turn inward. This seems hard... that destiny has dealt you these cards to play...but the bright side is that while most people are engrossed in the outer world (which is illusion), you are led along the path of spiritual awakening (not necessarily, but this is the potential).

We should be aware that all experience in life, in the final analysis, occurs wholly within the mind. Life is a subjective experience.

Five of your six Rx planets are widely separated from Sun. Only Mercury has the possibility of combustion in addition to being retrograde. Check his position in regard to this (combustion) and also notice if Mercury rises before or after Sun; the mind functions differently according to this position. Mercury is retrograde in 1/5 of all charts -- uncommon but not rare. Look in the ephemeris to see when Mercury turns direct.

Mars retrograde occurs in only 8% of all charts, a rarity and therfore very special. Check the ephemeris to see when Mars comes to his station and turns direct. One day in the ephemeris equals one year in the life. This turning direct signals a turning point in the life. I have Venus Rx in my natal chart. She turned direct at about age 16 or 17, which is when I broke the bonds tying me to the parental family and began to live independently.

The other outer planets are frequently retrograde (between about 1/3 to nearly 1/2 of the time) and so not unusual. But the outer planets are ponderous, slow-moving bodies. Their influence is deep and lasting, not to be ignored.

The subjectivity of retrograde bodies suggests that their nature and influence on our lives is difficult to bring into consciousness. This requires time and effort, close observation of ourselves. One of the lessons of heavy retrogradation is patience. Another is acceptance...learning gratitude for what we have, being thankful for life itself, and loving ourelves just as we are.

The usual situation in all charts is to have one or two retrogrades. All planets direct, or three retrograde is less common. Three Rx suggests mild introversion, all planets direct suggests a personality not much subject to introspection; the outer world is reality (I am oversimplifying, or exaggerating to some extent, but this is the inclination shown). With four or more Rx planets, the personality is fundamentally introverted. Six is extreme.

Also check to see if all of the planets in any hemisphere are retrograde (Sun and Moon don't count; they can't be retrograde and are ignored in this view). There are four hemispheres in a chart: east, west, above and below the horizon. Where this occurs, the nature of the angle at center of the hemisphere gives significance to the "difficulties" shown by retrogradation. For example, a person with all planets below the horizon retrograde (Fouth House -- family -- at center) is a person who experiences great difficulty in establishing and maintaining close family ties, feels alienated from the family, and is quite likely a solitary creature at base). It doesn't matter if only one planet in a hemisphere is Rx, as long as all the planets in that hemisphere are retrograde.

Greybeard's discussion is largely along my line of thought regarding retrogrades.

However, I am undecided as to whether rx = a disruptive or impeding or weakening or blocking of the influence of the rx planet (which is pretty much the outlook of Western astrology going back to Greco-Roman times) OR, the reverse (which is the outlook of Vedic astrology, going back to its earliest texts-Parasara, for example, saying that a planet in rx should be delineated as if it were in exaltation): so, I am undecided because, in reviewing rx planets in many various charts,I have seen about equal evidence to support BOTH perspectives!

Good point Dr. Farr.

I have 4 Rx planets. And if we look at them as "exalted" [not necessarily in the sense of "good", but certainly as powerful] we are on the right track.

My personal experience with my own chart (after living out most of a life) is that the Rx planets are in fact disruptive and impeding while at the same time providing the fodder for greater-than-normal expression of their energies in an often very positive way.

I believe (but am open to correction) that Rx planets operate more or less negatively on the external plane, but can often produce very positive effects on the internal. If, as I believe, our external lives and productions are nothing more than the projection of the inner self into the outer world, then it follows that the positive intenalization of the retrograde planet must also produce positive external effects. I think, as I mentioned, that this normally requires time and struggle, but not in all cases. I offer the chart/life of J. Krishnamurti (I recently posted his chart, and it's available at astrodata), who, with a predominant retrograde Uranus in his chart offered us the concept of "internal revolution" very early in his life...a very powerful and positive manifestation.

I expressed this idea thus: A chart such as yours, with six retrogrades, suggests a life (destiny) in which progress or success in the outer world comes, if at all, at a high price, with much struggle, with many setbacks, causing one to turn inward. This seems hard... that destiny has dealt you these cards to play...but the bright side is that while most people are engrossed in the outer world (which is illusion), you are led along the path of spiritual awakening (not necessarily, but this is the potential), but did not express the idea fully.

greybeard said:

I believe ... that Rx planets operate more or less negatively on the external plane, but can often produce very positive effects on the internal.

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This might very well be the case!

Have you read this article on retrograde planets?

http://gregoryrozek.com/en/retrogradeplanets/

It's really interesting!

Extensive and interesting article-thanks for posting the link.
The author makes a number of points worthy of consideration-however some of the author's conclusions I think are a bit too categorical-still, this article is worthy of reading and the points made therein are worthy of reflection!

In my own chart, I have:

-Saturn rx in Virgo in the 1st (whole sign) house: I have experienced both some of the extremely + and some of the extremely blocking/delaying influences, characterizing Saturn, in my life (7th House Moon in Pisces in partile opposition to Saturn)

-Neptune rx in Libra in the 2nd house (partile sextile with Pluto): again, both + and - Neptunian influences have been effected re to 2nd house matters for me (although this evaluation is complicated because of the SN being posited in Libra/2nd house as well)

-Mercury rx in Taurus in 9th house: Mercury being dispositor of the ascendant (and also atmakraka of the chart): regarding Mercury I must say that my life-experience with Mercury has been mostly of its + influences (partile trine of ascending degree to Mercury; also Mercury in close trine to 1st house Mars): but here's a note: another connection (in the literature) of retrograde, is "looking back" and "going back to"-and certainly the primary thrust of Mercurial activities for me has been investigating the past-past ideas and practices (such as in the field of astrology, and esoteric matters), alchemy, even my profession-homeopathic medicine; my teaching of classes (eg American University of Complimentary Medicine) have been regarding homeopathy-a healing practice from the past which has regained increasing popularity (in the West, and in India) over the past 40 or so years-so perhaps this is a clue to how my RX Mercury has influenced me....

Thank you greybeard and Dr. Farr for your insights and sharing your experiences. Also Wames that link was fun to read.

I do feel like the interpretations of retrograde planets seem simplistic or not quite correct in how they are viewed as inherently "bad" or "good" depending on the view... usually the "good" as a counter to all the "bad" interpretations.

I read that those with retrograde planets (Mercury, Venus, Mars) tend to "do better" during times that those planets are retrograde in transit. I believe this is true for me. I tend to feel at ease expressing myself during periods where others feel frustrated or set back. Almost like I am relieved when things aren't working smoothly for others and they slow down. This also feeds into how Rx is working in a natal chart, I think... being "out of sync" with others in regards to that planet's condition, and having those temporary "corrections" helps.

greybeard said:

My personal experience with my own chart (after living out most of a life) is that the Rx planets are in fact disruptive and impeding while at the same time providing the fodder for greater-than-normal expression of their energies in an often very positive way.

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This rings with me. I feel like I'm forced to take a step back and look at what's going on, and that can be very positive. It also seems to drive a need for constant self-exploration, which can be harmful if it does not provide any value, but more often I think it does.

On subjectivity: It's very odd to me that society in general puts so much value on objectivity. We experience the world through the lens of our senses, feelings, motivations and prejudices. You can only find lies if you pretend to be objective. If you want to approximate "truth" you need to allow your own bias to be part of that truth, to accept it as as part of yourself and honor it. Otherwise, you cannot honor other's truth and experience (seems contradictory I know). I wonder if these views are reflecting having so many retrogrades. I'm curious how you, greybeard, and dr. farr see subjectivity itself considering your own retrograde planets.

I think this may be another pertinent comparison: With my chart, I should be interested in journalism. Strong Mercury in 3rd, Sun in 3rd, Gemini ASC, and some other indicators. However, I generally despise journalism right now because of these "no bias" attitudes despite heavy bias and how the industry is sewed up with private interests. I tried to work in journalism, but it was too "fast paced" in a chicken-with-its-head-cut-off kind of way that I found distasteful, especially with the egos that came along with it. I feel like if my Mercury and Mars weren't retrograde (in some imaginary birth chart) I would be right there along with them. But I cannot behave like that... I'm impeded by the way my mind works and how I carry out tasks.

In general, my tendency to check, recheck, analyze everything, go back and check again, make everything perfect (exacerbated by a Virgo Venus square Rx Saturn I'm sure) has blocked me from many activities that require speed... which is contradictory because of a Gemini ASC, where I appear quick and actually work well multi-tasking! This is part of being introverted... when I'm alone I can take as long as I want with others perceiving me as being fast because they don't see me work (Mars also in 8th Cap... hidden work). I'm so insecure about it that I usually pretend I didn't take so long. I have all retrograde planets (except Moon) in the southern hemisphere. The outer world is definitely a source of discomfort.

Mercury turned direct in April 1999, the same month when my family got our first computer with an internet connection.

Mars turned direct during a summer college class in 2008 that changed all my aspirations of what I was going to do with my life; I actually decided to go for something without hesitating or second guessing myself. That class was a literal "awakening" after a huge low and loss of direction. Of course, Pluto sitting on my Mars right now is making me question all those decisions, but I'll push through.

ALSO: It took me over an hour to write this!

For me, subjectivity-how one thinks of one's self, how one knows oneself, how one sees and knows the world and their place in it (from their perspective) is the key for each person.

Self-exploration is healthy, necessary...the yellow flag flying when it becomes self-obsession, self-absorption.

Flapjacks, in reponse to one of your other posts somewhere, I said something like "someone who thinks, someone who sees". Do you see what lots of retrograde planets can do? Put my comment in the context of what you had said.

greybeard said:

Self-exploration is healthy, necessary...the yellow flag flying when it becomes self-obsession, self-absorption.

Flapjacks, in reponse to one of your other posts somewhere, I said something like "someone who thinks, someone who sees". Do you see what lots of retrograde planets can do? Put my comment in the context of what you had said.

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I noticed you started talking about objectivity in science in response to Phil in that thread as well. I take that response as an answer to question of how subjectivity affects you here, too.

Life, existence, it seems to me, is nothing if not paradoxical. This is that.

In addition to 4 Rx planets, we find them distributed 5-4 in Air-Earth. I suppose you could say I'm a down-to-earth theorist. More than one person has said I'm a walking contradiction...but I am misunderstood, Woe is me.

A few years ago I began digging into my ancestry. That adventure led me to see that if I didn't understand the times (they were Puritans) they lived in, I could understand nothing about them. So I began studying 16th and 17th century English history...which led me to European history. And of course that led me to Ardipithecus...In the paper on my ancestry that I began writing I called her Aunt Emily and in her biography included a picture of her with the caption that she had attended a symposium of Ethiopian astrologers 4.6 million years ago. I sometimes tell people that I am a colony of bacteria. I am not unaware of the unending chain.

Phil's observations were right on the money. But we do have to choose a point of beginning for practical reference, and I find it hard to begin the story of my (recent) ancestry with Aunt Emily, or some stromatolite in Shark Bay.

One of the characteristics of an introvert is subjectivity. The extravert is objective. The distinction has to do with "point of reference". The mind of the introvert can function quite well in the objective realm.

My retrograde Mercury has strong aspects to both Saturn and Neptune.

greybeard said:

Life, existence, it seems to me, is nothing if not paradoxical. This is that.

In addition to 4 Rx planets, we find them distributed 5-4 in Air-Earth. I suppose you could say I'm a down-to-earth theorist. More than one person has said I'm a walking contradiction...but I am misunderstood, Woe is me.

A few years ago I began digging into my ancestry. That adventure led me to see that if I didn't understand the times (they were Puritans) they lived in, I could understand nothing about them. So I began studying 16th and 17th century English history...which led me to European history. And of course that led me to Ardipithecus...In the paper on my ancestry that I began writing I called her Aunt Emily and in her biography included a picture of her with the caption that she had attended a symposium of Ethiopian astrologers 4.6 million years ago. I sometimes tell people that I am a colony of bacteria. I am not unaware of the unending chain.

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Interesting how you seem to think of time having no meaning and all meaning simultaneously. That is quite paradoxical!

The post I did about "no beginnings" may indeed speak for Rx.

I tell people I am a bacteria farmer.

The thought of being a super-organism is especially disturbing to me though, and there is another paradox. The unending chain is omnipresent, but these boundaries we've created provide security. Sometimes I have an overpowering feeling that humans are coalescing into one, perhaps always have, proceeding dutifully towards extinction. It sends shivers up my spine. Perhaps that's my 8th house Cap Neptune (Rx, of course) speaking.

greybeard said:

Check the ephemeris to see when Mars comes to his station and turns direct. One day in the ephemeris equals one year in the life. This turning direct signals a turning point in the life. I have Venus Rx in my natal chart. She turned direct at about age 16 or 17, which is when I broke the bonds tying me to the parental family and began to live independently.

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Is it typical to have a noticeable event/change when the progressed planet passes over the natal position?

I referrred to the direct stations of progressed natal planets, which are typically accompanied by some sort of "turning point" in life, broadly corresponding in time with the station. Progressed stations embrace several years and represent a period of time coming to its apogee near the exact station. There may be no singular event, but the period is marked by changing conditions.

A rather uncanny coincidence occurs in my own chart, because both Mercury and Venus are retrograde natally. They both come to their direct stations about my age 15-16, and then both pass over their own natal positions simultaneously at age 37. They are co-rulers of my 4th. At age 37 I bought a homestead. At age 16-17, during or following the dissolution of my parental family, I established myself in an independent life.

None of these events/conditions was accompanied by a brass band and fireworks. Clearly, both -- but especially the events surrounding the stations -- were significant. The qualifier "noticeable" should be understood as meaning significant in the long term, but not necessarily striking or outstanding at the time it occurs.

There is a recent thread regarding Saturn opposing the 7th. The querent asks about marriage/relationships. It so happens that her natally retrograde Venus is now on her own place. The querent has not confirmed this, but I suspect that in one way or another "relationship" has come to consciousness at this time. I think she is in her early 40s and single...perhaps it is the woman's "biological clock" chiming away.

A good way to learn about (teach yourself about) these things is to study the documented lives of famous people.

greybeard said:

A rather uncanny coincidence occurs in my own chart, because both Mercury and Venus are retrograde natally. They both come to their direct stations about my age 15-16, and then both pass over their own natal positions simultaneously at age 37. They are co-rulers of my 4th. At age 37 I bought a homestead. At age 16-17, during or following the dissolution of my parental family, I established myself in an independent life.

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I had not thought about what would happen when the retrograde planet reached the natal position by progression after turning direct. Would that be a point of "completion" for the new conditions?

Eerily enough, my Mars went direct a few months before Mercury returned to the natal position, a time when I changed my chosen life path. It won't be until I'm in my 40s that Mars reaches it's natal position, though.

Saturn went direct at a time my living situation changed dramatically, moving far away, that allowed me to recover from some awful experiences (Saturn squares my Venus in the 4th, rules my 8th and 9th house).

Another thing that I've wondered about is, once the planet turns direct, what does that say about it's expression as a retrograde planet in the natal? Is it "no longer" retrograde?

On a related point: in the system of symbolic directions (which also includes solar arc directions) all planets are advanced FORWARD (at a certain rate over a certain given period of time) WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE RX IN THE ORIGINAL CHART: I have found this to work perfectly well, whereas using a "converse" direction (ie taking rx planets BACK) usually does not provide accurate indications (Charles Carter also was highly dubious of these "converse" directions: I have tested this thoroughly and I have become convinced that taking Rx planets BACKWARD in directing, is not an accurate procedure)

A natal planet will always and "forever" leave the stamp of its natal position and qualities on the "basic field" of the subject; however, the ramifications/evolution of that original "stamp" can be-and usually will be-modified through the passage of time.

Ditto Dr Farr on both statements.

A natal retrograde is for life... And we change through age and experience. But the basic Rx quality is deeply rooted.

I mentioned my own Venus Rx. At age 72 it's still there, but is now more under conscious control, rather than acting so much below consciousness. Nevertheless it is still deeply ingrained in my character, and even conscious decisions in its area of influence carry its stamp.

Remember, it was retrograde until age 16 and this means that its effects predominated throughout childhood, the formative years of life. There are two points in the chart....the natal position of Venus, and the end of the particular retrograde span -- the retrograde station of Venus prior to birth. This last point might be seen as the "release point", where the now "direct" Venus comes into a more open expression -- "past business" has been taken care of and now the native is free to move on. I have not investigated this idea, so it's "theory". I just looked, and by golly. As Venus passes over its own pre-natal retrograde station a very signifcant change in my life surfaces. Worth looking into.

Remember that a retrogradation cycle has 3 phases --
1. The direct and pre-conditioning phase. The planet passes over the degree where it will later come to direct station.
2. The phase of retrogradation. The planet has reached its retrograde station and is moving backward.
3. The second direct phase, which is one of outcome and consequence, unfoldment. It is completed when the planet passes over its Rx station and leaves the span of retrogradation behind, now direct.

This means there are three critical points in the natal chart, with reference to the retrograde planet.
1. The direct station, which is contacted twice. The first passage is seldom noticed; naturally, in the natal chart its occurrence is pre-natal. However, the degree of its occurrence (with aspects to it and so on) will probably describe the tone of the conditions underlying the retrogradation. The second passage, which is the actual post-natal progressed station is highly significant. As mentioned, it suggests a "turning poiint" of some kind in the life, the nature of which is determined by the nature of the planet (with its conditioning, rulerships, etc. in the individual natal chart) and by progressed conditions in the chart at the time of the station. Of course directions, profections, returns and such will fill in the picture.
2. The actual natal position. This position, along with its aspects and other conditioning factors is what the native carries throughout life. It does not change with directions, progressions and such things, but is affected and modified by the events and circumstances they bring. But the natal planet will be true to its own nature as shown in the radix. This degree is contacted three times: pre-natal, natal, and post-natal passage of the now-direct progressed planet. A conjunction "intensifies", "concentrates", "emphasizes". The conjunction implies action which is "natural", self-concerned. The position of the natal planet, the degree it inhabits, is important insofar as its relationship with the two stations -- where within the span of retrogradation does the natal planet reside? One important feature of this position is Timing of events (conditions) after birth. The timing of events is extremely important...that is, the age at which things happen.
3. The retrograde station. The first passage is pre-natal, but the second may be contacted during the lifetime (improbable with the heavy planets) and as suggested above may represent a point of release.

We should be aware of what else is going on in the chart, both natal and at the times of contact between the natal retrograde and the critical points. Nothing in a chart stands alone.

My natal jupiter is retrograde in aries about 2° past the MC. Unfortunately, one of the characteristics of this configuration has been an interest in many different careers. Instead of having one focused career to last 40 years, I would rather have 40 different careers that last a year each.

Progressed jupiter went direct when I was in college, around that time is when I made a commitment to a particular path. That turned out to be love/hate thing and, as one might expect, my interest in other options never really diminished. While it has been a fun adventure, I never really felt settle.

Progressed jupiter reached the natal degree last year, but I haven't really noticed anything yet. It could be because I'm still focused on the aftermath of the uranus-pluto square clobbering my ascendant/chart ruler in the prior 2 years. Coincidently, the uranus-pluto square reached my MC/IC axis last year about the same time progressed jupiter reached its natal position. So it might be that transits and progressions confirm each other, but the transformation will take a few years to complete (due to slow uranus and pluto). I guess I won't really know until I can look back retrospectively from 5+ years from now. To add to theme, my progressed MC is conjunct my 11th house south node (ruler venus on libra IC). I did some celebrity research on this and found that it most often corresponds to a refocus of career (not total change) into specific area/specialty. In most cases it was this refocus that brought greater success and fame that put them on the celebrity list. However, I can also see the potential to steer the career toward a quieter phase that will allow more focus on the home life.

Unfortunately, I will never get to see progressed jupiter leave the shadow period.

My chart