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  #1  
Unread 01-20-2019, 07:48 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Random Political Thoughts without Memes

Any political points of view are welcome, as long as they're expressed in words, rather than memes. Political theory connects with economic theory, so economics is also on the table. Could be about local politics in your area, and no need to take sides on the current national and/or geopolitical tensions. If you do take sides, let's agree to have a reasoned discussion without name-calling--as much fun as it is, there's enough of that on other political threads.

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  #2  
Unread 01-20-2019, 07:50 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Any political points of view are welcome, as long as they're expressed in words, rather than memes. Political theory connects with economic theory, so economics is also on the table. Could be about local politics in your area, and no need to take sides on the current national and/or geopolitical tensions. If you do take sides, let's agree to have a reasoned discussion without name-calling--as much fun as it is, there's enough of that on other political threads.
If Pelosi wants to stay in leadership
she may have a tough road head
During a recent candidate forum of Democrats vying for an Arizona congressional seat,
not a single one raised their hand to indicate support for Pelosi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCHgJxzEz7k
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  #3  
Unread 01-20-2019, 07:54 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

Here's a big one: Abolishing the Electoral College method of selecting our President. I see no valid reason why the office of President should be decided differently than any other elected political office in the nation--majority vote.
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  #4  
Unread 01-20-2019, 08:39 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

you must live in a city where welfare, gov't pay and taxes is where you put your vote then.

if you build it, they will come.

rural and non liberal townships in counties and states invest in their local through work and survival - people in city get it free, generally.

the argument of the red south taking up welfare is hilarious because the red south land owners wants people working their land but the northeast socialist thinkers want the workers owning property themselves or starving - with no means to provide the ownership or work.


the electrorate in most of US is the people who don't eat welfare checks for dinner and go to food banks for breakfast in between not doing nothing. If they go to food banks, it's because there is no work, not because there is no foodstamps.


The electorate college created this country and stupid revisionists who don't like the outcome one presidential election get their panties twisted worrying about getting gov't checks. no meme needed, right?


people are rational until they start talking about socialism and being all passive aggressive about why they can't compete. they answer themselves.
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  #5  
Unread 01-20-2019, 09:30 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

Lots of name calling!
I have a logical reason for abolishing the Electoral College, which is, as you implied, a type of "affirmative action" for the more rural areas. It was originally a requirement by "slave states", as they were called, before they would join the Union. It's purpose then was so the less-populated States could prevent an Anti-Slavery President from becoming elected. And, it worked until the Southern States began to secede, enabling Lincoln to be elected on a platform that would have allowed slavery to continue in States that already had slavery, but would prevent it in any new States.
Now, it's about the less-populated rural States from feeling dominated by more populated. But, as the last elections showed, that isn't necessary. The SENATE is popular-vote, and no matter how small a State's population is, compared to others, it still gets 2 Senators, same as all the rest.
Here's the most logical reason to abolish the Electoral College method: It literally DISENFRANCHISES voters when it comes to electing a President. The Supreme Court has upheld the One-Person-One-Vote concept, and the Electoral College winner-take-all system cancels that out.
In California, about a third of voters, mostly rural, voted for a Republican President. But NOT ONE of those votes mattered, because ALL Electoral votes went to the Democratic candidate. Obviously, the reverse occurred in majority Republican States.
A candidate for President should be a candidate for the entire Nation, with enough appeal to both urban and rural voters to win the Popular-vote of the entire Nation, without disenfranchising nearly half the voters. Or, in case of the years 2000 and 2016, more than half the voters. That just emphasized the point that the Electoral College is fundamentally flawed as a fair method for selecting the President.

Last edited by david starling; 01-21-2019 at 05:41 AM.
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  #6  
Unread 01-20-2019, 10:12 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

About the term "Socialism" as an economic system: It means the Government literally OWNS both the means of production and the means of distribution. Any other use of the word is bogus.

Last edited by david starling; 01-21-2019 at 05:41 AM.
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  #7  
Unread 01-21-2019, 11:22 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

Anyone care to interpret the slogan "Make America Great Again"? I have just 2 questions about it: When was America last "great", and when did it stop being so? In your opinion.
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  #8  
Unread 01-21-2019, 01:59 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Lots of name calling!
I have a logical reason for abolishing the Electoral College, which is, as you implied, a type of "affirmative action" for the more rural areas. It was originally a requirement by "slave states", as they were called, before they would join the Union. It's purpose then was so the less-populated States could prevent an Anti-Slavery President from becoming elected. And, it worked until the Southern States began to secede, enabling Lincoln to be elected on a platform that would have allowed slavery to continue in States that already had slavery, but would prevent it in any new States.
Now, it's about the less-populated rural States from feeling dominated by more populated. But, as the last elections showed, that isn't necessary. The SENATE is popular-vote, and no matter how small a State's population is, compared to others, it still gets 2 Senators, same as all the rest.
Here's the most logical reason to abolish the Electoral College method: It literally DISENFRANCHISES voters when it comes to electing a President. The Supreme Court has upheld the One-Person-One-Vote concept, and the Electoral College winner-take-all system cancels that out.
In California, about a third of voters, mostly rural, voted for a Republican President. But NOT ONE of those votes mattered, because ALL Electoral votes went to the Democratic candidate. Obviously, the reverse occurred in majority Republican States.
A candidate for President should be a candidate for the entire Nation, with enough appeal to both urban and rural voters to win the Popular-vote of the entire Nation, without disenfranchising nearly half the voters. Or, in case of the years 2000 and 2016, more than half the voters. That just emphasized the point that the Electoral College is fundamentally flawed as a fair method for selecting the President.
How we elect our President in the United States - THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE
https://www.khanacademy.org/humaniti...ctoral-college
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  #9  
Unread 01-21-2019, 03:47 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
About the term "Socialism" as an economic system: It means the Government literally OWNS both the means of production and the means of distribution. Any other use of the word is bogus.
It just doesn't work david.

The more power you give to the goverment (as in, to the politicians), the less effective it becomes. Its not that is just wrong in principle, its mostly that it does not work, because it helps spread corruption. You already have a large goverment, and your politicians (both republicans and democrats) earn large sums of money, and have large expenses. And you want to give them direct control of the economy? I've lived in that society, let me tell you what happens: you destroy your economy. This is what happened in Venezuela, in Cuba, in the Soviet Union, even my country Argentina.
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  #10  
Unread 01-21-2019, 03:55 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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you must live in a city where welfare, gov't pay and taxes is where you put your vote then.

if you build it, they will come.

rural and non liberal townships in counties and states invest in their local through work and survival - people in city get it free, generally.

the argument of the red south taking up welfare is hilarious because the red south land owners wants people working their land but the northeast socialist thinkers want the workers owning property themselves or starving - with no means to provide the ownership or work.


the electrorate in most of US is the people who don't eat welfare checks for dinner and go to food banks for breakfast in between not doing nothing. If they go to food banks, it's because there is no work, not because there is no foodstamps.


The electorate college created this country and stupid revisionists who don't like the outcome one presidential election get their panties twisted worrying about getting gov't checks. no meme needed, right?


people are rational until they start talking about socialism and being all passive aggressive about why they can't compete. they answer themselves.
I'm from a small town in the south, and I know A LOT of Republican voters who are on welfare and disability checks. I'm talking about members of my family. They don't consider themselves part of the problem, because for some reason, they believe they deserve their checks for their blown-out knees from obesity, their children they had out of wedlock, their disability from not exercising and eating bonbons, etc., while others do not.

It's not my entire family. It's not all small town Southerners. Many DO value work and self-sufficiency. Many more are sitting around, obese, unemployed, uneducated, watching Fox News, and throwing stones at things they know nothing about.
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  #11  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:10 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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It just doesn't work david.

The more power you give to the goverment (as in, to the politicians), the less effective it becomes. Its not that is just wrong in principle, its mostly that it does not work, because it helps spread corruption. You already have a large goverment, and your politicians (both republicans and democrats) earn large sums of money, and have large expenses. And you want to give them direct control of the economy? I've lived in that society, let me tell you what happens: you destroy your economy. This is what happened in Venezuela, in Cuba, in the Soviet Union, even my country Argentina.
What has happened in our country is that the corruption has come from the private sector. We all know our politicians are bought. We just disagree on which ones are more bought out and by whom, which ones are still most free to work on behalf of Americans. Donald Trump has somehow convinced a lot of people that a reality TV star known for ostentatious displays of wealth, not paying his employees, slapping his name on buildings, harassing beauty queens, and firing people on TV is the one they can count on to not be corrupt.

People on the right wonder why those of us on the left are so incredulous and up in arms. What if we made Miley Cyrus our president? Cardi B? That is the level of person the right has given us and asked us to take seriously.
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  #12  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:11 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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I'm from a small town in the south, and I know A LOT of Republican voters who are on welfare and disability checks. I'm talking about members of my family. They don't consider themselves part of the problem, because for some reason, they believe they deserve their checks for their blown-out knees from obesity, their children they had out of wedlock, their disability from not exercising and eating bonbons, etc., while others do not.

It's not my entire family. It's not all small town Southerners. Many DO value work and self-sufficiency. Many more are sitting around, obese, unemployed, uneducated, watching Fox News, and throwing stones at things they know nothing about.
Democrats use every single tax loophole to pay less taxes than they should, just as any other person. By your logic then, every single person that votes for the democratic party which promotes high taxes, shouldn't use deductions or tax loopholes. Or should not have off-shore bank accounts. Or should not create trusts to pass money to their heirs upon death. But they do...

Just because some people play by the rules that are in place, does not compromise their values. Sure there are republicans who are on welfare, and democrats who use tax loopholes to keep more money, but that doesn't mean anything.
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  #13  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:14 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Democrats use every single tax loophole to pay less taxes than they should, just as any other person. By your logic then, every single person that votes for the democratic party which promotes high taxes, shouldn't use deductions or tax loopholes. Or should not have off-shore bank accounts. Or should not create trusts to pass money to their heirs upon death. But they do...

Just because some people play by the rules that are in place, does not compromise their values. Sure there are republicans who are on welfare, and democrats who use tax loopholes to keep more money, but that doesn't mean anything.
How does what I said mean that Democrats shouldn't use tax loopholes? I don't see how one leads to the other in the least. And yes, if you take advantage of something you don't believe in, you ARE compromising your values.

I have had to pay extra income taxes every year for the past 10 years, because we make too much money and don't have kids. I walk my talk.
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  #14  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:19 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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What has happened in our country is that the corruption has come from the private sector. We all know our politicians are bought. We just disagree on which ones are more bought out and by whom, which ones are still most free to work on behalf of Americans. Donald Trump has somehow convinced a lot of people that a reality TV star known for ostentatious displays of wealth, not paying his employees, slapping his name on buildings, harassing beauty queens, and firing people on TV is the one they can count on to not be corrupt.

People on the right wonder why those of us on the left are so incredulous and up in arms. What if we made Miley Cyrus our president? Cardi B? That is the level of person the right has given us and asked us to take seriously.
Yes, but that is the problem. If politicians have little power, they can't be bought in the first place. Because politicians have the ability to grant favours, obviously evil people will try to buy them. What you need is a small goverment, that can't provide that.

Well.. Trump has many flaws... but he has delivered on his promises to his base. The econmy is doing better, the did lower taxes, he did create jobs, he is pushing for more border security- whether you agree with his policies or not, you can't deny he is in fact keeping his campaignj promises. Almost no other president (on a worldwide scale) has done that. Then we can discuss whether his policies are good or not, but that is what he promised, and he is delivering. And he is only 2 years in. You can't deny that fact.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 04:27 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Yes, but that is the problem. If politicians have little power, they can't be bought in the first place. Because politicians have the ability to grant favours, obviously evil people will try to buy them. What you need is a small goverment, that can't provide that.

Well.. Trump has many flaws... but he has delivered on his promises to his base. The econmy is doing better, the did lower taxes, he did create jobs, he is pushing for more border security- whether you agree with his policies or not, you can't deny he is in fact keeping his campaignj promises. Almost no other president (on a worldwide scale) has done that. Then we can discuss whether his policies are good or not, but that is what he promised, and he is delivering. And he is only 2 years in. You can't deny that fact.
We need a large government to do all the work Americans expect, and that government needs to be directed by the people, which means we need a lot of freely elected representatives in a position to know what voters want, be beholden to them, and have enough power to make those things actually happen. A small government with no power would be overruled by the rich, who would then do what they pleased...an oligarchy, or a neo-feudal system. We've had feudal politics before. It was disastrous for the majority of people.
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  #16  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:27 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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How does what I said mean that Democrats shouldn't use tax loopholes? I don't see how one leads to the other in the least. And yes, if you take advantage of something you don't believe in, you ARE compromising your values.

I have had to pay extra income taxes every year for the past 10 years, because we make too much money and don't have kids. I walk my talk.
Democratic party policy is to have high taxation, in order to pay for more social programs. Thus democratic voters should try to pay as much taxes as they can. Particulary the "wealthy" democratic voters. I did not accuse you of doing this, I merely pointed out that this does happen on every side of the political spectrum.

But I disagree on your conclusion. You can't be off welfare, if you live in a country that does not allow business to develop by lowering taxation. Half the people in venezuela hate Maduro, but they still accept the little scraps of food he hands out. Because they have no choice. Its that, or death.
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  #17  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
We need a large government to do all the work Americans expect, and that government needs to be directed by the people, which means we need a lot of freely elected representatives in a position to know what voters want, be beholden to them, and have enough power to make those things actually happen. A small government with no power would be overruled by the rich, who would then do what they pleased...an oligarchy, or a neo-feudal system. We've had feudal politics before. It was disastrous for the majority of people.
Feudalism is akin to a large politician elite. Nobles and Kings derive their rights from the goverment, not from capitalism. They live off high taxation from both the working class and the merchant class. In fact it was once we reduced the power of kings and nobles, that the merchant class was able to flourish.

It is a huge miss-conception to equate old feudal systems to big business.

Let me ask you something: How would big businessmen rule over you? if you don't like some company, you just don't buy their stuff and they break down.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Democratic party policy is to have high taxation, in order to pay for more social programs. Thus democratic voters should try to pay as much taxes as they can. Particulary the "wealthy" democratic voters. I did not accuse you of doing this, I merely pointed out that this does happen on every side of the political spectrum.

But I disagree on your conclusion. You can't be off welfare, if you live in a country that does not allow business to develop by lowering taxation. Half the people in venezuela hate Maduro, but they still accept the little scraps of food he hands out. Because they have no choice. Its that, or death.
It is incorrect to say that Democrats believe in high taxes. Not all Democrats agree on taxes, which ones should be imposed, when or for what cause. A major reason Democrats have lost a lot in contemporary times is because there is not universal agreement in the party about this or many topics. We value free thought and differences of opinion, while the Republican party brands all those who do not fall into line as "RINOs". I disapprove of the rich, bought-off democrats too, but I still vote for them if the choice is between one of them and a Republican whose views are even further off of what mine are.

My family members are not choosing between welfare and death, I assure you. They are choosing it over getting a job at the corner store or McDonalds.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 04:35 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
It is incorrect to say that Democrats believe in high taxes. Not all Democrats agree on taxes, which ones should be imposed, when or for what cause. A major reason Democrats have lost a lot in contemporary times is because there is not universal agreement in the party about this or many topics. We value free thought and differences of opinion, while the Republican party brands all those who do not fall into line as "RINOs". I disapprove of the rich, bought-off democrats too, but I still vote for them if the choice is between one of them and a Republican whose views are even further off of what mine are.

My family members are not choosing between welfare and death, I assure you. They are choosing it over getting a job at the corner store or McDonalds.
I'm merely pointing out that, historically, the democratic party has been for "high taxes and social programs", while republicans have been for "lower taxes and private business". And when you cast your vote for one or the other, you are also accepting that outcome. The analogy works both ways, regardless of political affiliation. Also don't democrats have the "DOGs" which are the equivalent of RINOs?

On point, its just the system that is in place. If someone offers you money, most people will take it. I'm not going to blame the individual citizen, and defend the rich politician. The one that is in the wrong is the goverment official, not the citizen.
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Last edited by Dirius; 01-21-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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  #20  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:37 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Feudalism is akin to a large politician elite. Nobles and Kings derive their rights from the goverment, not from capitalism. They live off high taxation from both the working class and the merchant class. In fact it was once we reduced the power of kings and nobles, that the merchant class was able to flourish.

It is a huge miss-conception to equate old feudal systems to big business.

Let me ask you something: How would big businessmen rule over you? if you don't like some company, you just don't buy their stuff and they break down.
They might buy a media conglomerate that starts a movement to call all mainstream media fake news, while pushing a no-facts-needed alternative view of the world that benefits first Republicans, and eventually, the fake Republican we call Trump, until half the country and even people from across the world espouse that viewpoint, stop watching all media produced by professional journalists, and vote based on that.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 04:44 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Feudalism is akin to a large politician elite. Nobles and Kings derive their rights from the goverment, not from capitalism. They live off high taxation from both the working class and the merchant class. In fact it was once we reduced the power of kings and nobles, that the merchant class was able to flourish.

It is a huge miss-conception to equate old feudal systems to big business.

Let me ask you something: How would big businessmen rule over you? if you don't like some company, you just don't buy their stuff and they break down.
Sorry to barge in, I've been lurking and just have a question.

I mean, couldn't businesses influence us the same way the government does? Like google saves our searches and gives us certain advertisements/marketing based off our search history. Organizations you work for probably save all your internet usage history and if you're on their wifi on your phone, couldn't they use that too? My HR professor said organizations are already doing this and that most just don't know how to use all the information they've collected. It's just subliminal messaging, like brainwashing.

Depending on which business has the most money and most influential partnerships with other organizations like, for instance, google, couldn't it be that the consumer might never hear about an alternative or new product and so we keep buying from a company we don't like?

I still see an issue with big government though, like if your politicians can be bought, then you're still going to have this issue regardless. I just wonder if either alternative presented here thus far is capable of addressing these issues.
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  #22  
Unread 01-21-2019, 04:55 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Sorry to barge in, I've been lurking and just have a question.

I mean, couldn't businesses influence us the same way the government does? Like google saves our searches and gives us certain advertisements/marketing based off our search history. Organizations you work for probably save all your internet usage history and if you're on their wifi on your phone, couldn't they use that too? My HR professor said organizations are already doing this and that most just don't know how to use all the information they've collected. It's just subliminal messaging, like brainwashing.

Depending on which business has the most money and most influential partnerships with other organizations like, for instance, google, couldn't it be that the consumer might never hear about an alternative or new product and so we keep buying from a company we don't like?

I still see an issue with big government though, like if your politicians can be bought, then you're still going to have this issue regardless. I just wonder if either alternative presented here thus far is capable of addressing these issues.
You are more than welcome to barge in, I think these are topics we need to be discussing.

Well as a start, as you pointed out, people use Google because they still get more benefits from using it, at least in comparison to other products. But they can stop using Google at any time, and use any other competitor.

If a company wants to get into a certain business, they will use a marketing campaign. Look at twich.tv: it is a direct competitor to youtube, mainly in the area of video-game streaming. In fact, in the last 2 years it has totally surpassed youtube. And this is despite Google's power and influence on the internet. Instagram is also doing a good job at taking money away from Google with its new wave of "influencers". Why? Because Google sells advertising space for twich and instagram in the first place. Ironic isn't it? Facebook has been loosing numbers in mass in the last 2 years, its stock has gone down. The same is happening to Apple, people are tired of their bad products.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 05:11 PM
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
You are more than welcome to barge in, I think these are topics we need to be discussing.

Well as a start, as you pointed out, people use Google because they still get more benefits from using it, at least in comparison to other products. But they can stop using Google at any time, and use any other competitor.

If a company wants to get into a certain business, they will use a marketing campaign. Look at twich.tv: it is a direct competitor to youtube, mainly in the area of video-game streaming. In fact, in the last 2 years it has totally surpassed youtube. And this is despite Google's power and influence on the internet. Instagram is also doing a good job at taking money away from Google with its new wave of "influencers". Why? Because Google sells advertising space for twich and instagram in the first place. Ironic isn't it? Facebook has been loosing numbers in mass in the last 2 years, its stock has gone down. The same is happening to Apple, people are tired of their bad products.
That's really interesting. I've actually never heard of twich.tv, but I did know that facebook was losing social appeal and that its stock had gone down. I can see your point. I don't really have an opinion yet, still in development.

Google selling advertisement space for competitors...that's curious. What do you think about that? Doesn't that mean Google is really deciding what companies succeed? Like don't you have to get Google approval, so to speak, to get that marketing campaign off the ground?

I'm also starting to think about net neutrality, but I need a minute to formulate my thoughts.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 05:12 PM
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Dirius Dirius is offline
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
They might buy a media conglomerate that starts a movement to call all mainstream media fake news, while pushing a no-facts-needed alternative view of the world that benefits first Republicans, and eventually, the fake Republican we call Trump, until half the country and even people from across the world espouse that viewpoint, stop watching all media produced by professional journalists, and vote based on that.
Well to begin with, lets be honest here and acknowledge that the media has promoted a lot of "news" that turned out to not be true. Just to mention some recent examples:
- The fake Buzzfeed dossier on Trump, which did not exist.
- The story of MAGA hat kids harrasing a native american, which was false.

They also go after Trump supporters by not reporting specific incidents of agression from the left to the right, like Antifa riots, protests, etc., while clearing reporting on issues that happen on the right. I'm not an american, but I am interested in american politics. And I can honestly tell you, that while some bias is expected from the media, what you see in the U.S. has no standards at all.

As for Fox news, I see the same bias that CNN has. But to be honest, what I do see on Fox news is reporting on every issue, while CNN does try to not mention certain problems. And I also, don't see so many "false" stories being reported on Fox news. And that to me is why one is worse than the other.
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Unread 01-21-2019, 05:16 PM
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Dirius Dirius is offline
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Re: Random Political Thoughts without Memes

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
That's really interesting. I've actually never heard of twich.tv, but I did know that facebook was losing social appeal and that its stock had gone down. I can see your point. I don't really have an opinion yet, still in development.

Google selling advertisement space for competitors...that's curious. What do you think about that? Doesn't that mean Google is really deciding what companies succeed? Like don't you have to get Google approval, so to speak, to get that marketing campaign off the ground?

I'm also starting to think about net neutrality, but I need a minute to formulate my thoughts.
You can also buy advertising from Facebook, or Instagram, or Twich.tv, etc. The ones that are deciding which companies succeed are the people, who try out the new product and use it instead of Google.

In capitalism, the power is always with the people. Because it is the market that decides what is good and what isn't. Your money is what votes companies in or out of the market.
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Last edited by Dirius; 01-21-2019 at 05:22 PM.
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