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  #76  
Unread 12-08-2012, 07:16 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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I take it that I'm astrologically hopeless and now need to be saved by gardening or the Four Noble Truth
To be fair FarEastUranus, you did say
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I really appreciate any advice or insight, astrological or otherwise.
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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
You hit the nail on the head here. You will find much more to guide and sustain you over your entire life in the heartfelt practice of the Four Noble Truths. Gardening is good, too.
Good luck.
A Zen garden would be ideal

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  #77  
Unread 12-08-2012, 07:28 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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A Zen garden would be ideal
Excellent synthesis, JA. Cheers!
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  #78  
Unread 12-08-2012, 09:38 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

Venus -- final dispositor of chart.
Jupiter -- To the minute conjunction with MC
Libra Stellium 2nd House
Rising Sun

Interesting feature of chart...the close proximity to house cusps of important planets (Jupiter, Venus, Moon, Uranus)

Airy preponderance.

Extreme "good fortune" characterizes the life (the strong trines 10th to 2nd)

This airy, light-hearted, rather childish and superficial personality may mask the Earth...
But both lights and the ascendant are in Earth. When push comes to shove, when personal interests are affected or threatened, the game gets real. Sun rises, and Moon provides the only real tension aspects in the chart from Capricorn [Moon applies to most of her squares, while the other squares in the chart are separating] on the cusp of the 5th...The Fifth shows "creativity", and also very importantly, our power to hold to our own course despite pressures from the outside.

Note the interesting minor fomation, of Saturn/Pluto=Sun: it is both an inconjunct formation and a midpoint formation with Sun at apex.
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Unread 12-09-2012, 02:17 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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But both lights and the ascendant are in Earth. When push comes to shove, when personal interests are affected or threatened, the game gets real. Sun rises, and Moon provides the only real tension aspects in the chart from Capricorn [Moon applies to most of her squares, while the other squares in the chart are separating] on the cusp of the 5th...The Fifth shows "creativity", and also very importantly, our power to hold to our own course despite pressures from the outside.
It's true that I'm light-hearted and easy-going on an every-day basis. Very few people or situations actually tip me off balance. Used to be the class clown and hyperactive and diagnosed with ADHD on several occasions. I don't function on those terms anymore, but still have the hyper-distractibility alternated with the hyper-focus/tunnel vision.

Deep down, I know that my main battle is between me and myself. Others can shed the light or show me the door, but I'm alone to do the work. And I've always been acutely aware, starting from the time that I was very young, that there was "work" to do, something all-consuming, and it felt a bit constrictive, definitely serious (Capricorn?), sometimes downright scary. And the depth and the structural rigor that my work demands is in no way light-hearted, alas. I often wonder why I'm driven by this single-minded unnamed obsession, and I feel that there's a very complex and multi-layered deep reason that I'm unable to pinpoint. I know you don't believe in past life, but I've had regressions where I was buried in piles of stone...

About the "good fortune", I think that the biggest good fortune is that I have a easy contact with people and no matter the undertaking, someone key shows up unexpectantly to help me go further.

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Note the interesting minor fomation, of Saturn/Pluto=Sun: it is both an inconjunct formation and a midpoint formation with Sun at apex.
Greybeard you mentioned that there was a formation, but I don't picture what it is. Why is there no aspect lines with my Pluto on the astro.com chart? I see that Saturn and Pluto are 60 degrees apart (sextile), with the sun in the middle. How long did that exact formation last? Just a day or a few days? I found this internet description, which is all true, except the amassing great wealth part - perseverance , obsession(I hang on to project ideas for years until I finish), good instinct for business, perceptive, probing to the darkest abyss of the psyche, where most people simply do not want to look, the ability to re-make myself from scratch, and yes, aptitude for science.

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Saturn sextile Pluto
Your perseverance is nothing short of legendary. You pursue your goals with a passion which may become obsession. You have an amazing instinct for business, and are capable of amassing great wealth, or at least being in control of large amounts of money. You are deeply perceptive, and quickly penetrate to the essence of whatever comes under your scrutiny. You might go through many transformative changes, and ultimately lead, teach and guide others to deal with loss and transformation. You are not inclined to avoid the darkest, most fearful areas of the psyche, and therefore you can help others to reclaim their power. You have an excellent aptitude for science.
Another question, is there an opposition between Uranus and Chiron? I see a triangular formation between Uranus, Chiron and Saturn. Uranus is in the middle of a trine between Asc and Moon, and Chiron is in a grand trine with Asc and Moon? Some contend that Chiron is the true ruler of Virgo...
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Last edited by FarEastUranus; 12-09-2012 at 02:24 AM.
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  #80  
Unread 12-09-2012, 03:06 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

I do not use Chiron....a rock with an unstable, unpredictable (for any long term) and deteriorating orbit is not my idea of an astrological symbol. It is totally unnecessary to any understanding of a horoscope. When you to the circus, do you pay attention to the elephants, or to the few pieces of popcorn the crowd has thrown to them? I live in Idaho...get a map of the world and a pencil. Mark a pencil-width line from Idaho Falls to Boise. This is about the size of Chiron. It is not even a speck of popcorn on the floor at the circus. There are millions of asteroids, in several classes (and specific locations). Where do we draw the line? Astrology works, is effective, because it reduces the vast and complex universe, in its entirety, to a simple and minimal set of symbols -- making it comprehensible to the human mind while still embracing the All. Why do we want to clutter up a proven system with every "novelty" we run across? If you can't read a chart with seven planets, what makes you think your skill will improve with ten, or twelve, or eighteen? Why not choose 360 asteroids to use in the chart? That offers the potential for an object in every horoscope degree -- it would give "the full picture." Then we could chuck in dark moons and ghost planets, lots of lots, degree symbols, fixed stars (the supply is limitless) and a kitchen sink or two.

I don't use Chiron. It is totally superfluous.

The aspects between Saturn/Pluto and Sun lasted for a couple of days as the Sun moved along its course. The midpoint formation's duration was a bit briefer, simply because of its reduced orb. It is not a major formation, but its pointing into the First House at the Sun caught my eye, and I think it provides some insight into areas where you can best express (and will, whether consciously or unconsciously) your special attributes. The combination, aside from those you mention, can also have to do with issues of persecution, as well as the outcome or aftermath of deep social upheavals, tragedies or critical events (related to "and ultimately lead, teach and guide others to deal with loss and transformation.") The uses of power come into focus.

You are reading your chart by bits and pieces, not assigning each detail its proper place in the hierarchy of power within your character and life, not seeing the chart as an integrated whole.

Dhundhun mentioned the power of the Libra stellium. What is more important is that Venus is sole, or final, dispositor of this chart. She has deep and controlling power in the chart. I mentioned a couple of other points for consideration.

Jupiter is elevated ("stands above all else") and is exactly conjunct the MC (assuming a correct time of birth, which if I recall is dubious in your case.)

Moon provides the most important tension aspects in the chart. She is in detriment, and her lord Saturn is posited in the 12th and also in detriment. He participates in the formation we just discussed (aha! This may be more important than our first glance would imply), and beholds a separating square to Uranus.
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  #81  
Unread 12-09-2012, 03:43 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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Another question, is there an opposition between Uranus and Chiron? I see a triangular formation between Uranus, Chiron and Saturn. Uranus is in the middle of a trine between Asc and Moon, and Chiron is in a grand trine with Asc and Moon? Some contend that Chiron is the true ruler of Virgo...
In general Moon receiving any aspects from malefic planets is not good. Although Moon is receiving trine and sextile from Chiron and Uranus respectively, it will not do any good to Moon. I mean that your all 5th house affairs will be pretty weak. If you are looking for practical example - a business person busy money making and ignoring the loved ones.
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  #82  
Unread 12-09-2012, 04:38 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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I mean that your all 5th house affairs will be pretty weak. If you are looking for practical example - a business person busy money making and ignoring the loved ones.
Thanks, Dhundhun. When you say weak, do you mean full of tension, or near non-existent?

What are the 5th house affairs? Loved ones? I got lost in the example. I believe it's about creativity, romance, children, recreation, and these take on a Capricornian nature... But why the moon there? My mom is a Leo, a musician and music educator, and I can see the connection. She's one of the most creative persons I know, sings, dances, plays the piano, cello, accordion, really crafty, makes her own curtains and clothes, and can cook anything after tasting it once, be it Mexican, Chinese, or Russian. I don't have that down-to-earthiness of hers at all. She keeps telling me that I just need to tap in, and she didn't know how to do these things before she needed to. But I think we just have different types of creativity. I'm less interested in the crafty aspect of things. Or maybe unconsciously, I wanted to express something different from her, don't know. She's from a family where there were always chauffeur and domestic cook, and never dipped a finger in the kitchen until my grandparents were put in political prison for 10 years, and she had to go work near Siberia at the age of 15. I think those were really traumatic years, sibling spread all over the country, and the life or death of the parents unknown. It has given a toughness to her that is quite Capricornian...
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Unread 12-09-2012, 05:00 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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Thanks, Dhundhun. When you say weak, do you mean full of tension, or near non-existent?
It exists, but that is not your priority, thereby you ignore. Your case is a nice example, your mom being so creative, but you are away from most of the things she have as talent.

2nd house has more value for money (or any thing in practical sense). It is like being banker and like being lender. As you grow and mature, you will tend to become more and more practical, balanced (libra) and focused in 2nd house affairs.
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Unread 12-09-2012, 08:43 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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The aspects between Saturn/Pluto and Sun lasted for a couple of days as the Sun moved along its course. The midpoint formation's duration was a bit briefer, simply because of its reduced orb. It is not a major formation, but its pointing into the First House at the Sun caught my eye, and I think it provides some insight into areas where you can best express (and will, whether consciously or unconsciously) your special attributes. The combination, aside from those you mention, can also have to do with issues of persecution, as well as the outcome or aftermath of deep social upheavals, tragedies or critical events (related to "and ultimately lead, teach and guide others to deal with loss and transformation.") The uses of power come into focus.
There's a concentration of 12th, 1st, and 2nd house, Leo, Virgo, Libra. I'd have to think about it.
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You are reading your chart by bits and pieces, not assigning each detail its proper place in the hierarchy of power within your character and life, not seeing the chart as an integrated whole.
I've reached a plateau and it's been months. Shucks! The months may turn into years, and it definitely would take a lifetime to integrate everything holistically. You are right, I need to break into the next level.

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Dhundhun mentioned the power of the Libra stellium. What is more important is that Venus is sole, or final, dispositor of this chart. She has deep and controlling power in the chart. I mentioned a couple of other points for consideration.

Jupiter is elevated ("stands above all else") and is exactly conjunct the MC (assuming a correct time of birth, which if I recall is dubious in your case.)
Besides the "lucky" and "complacent" aspects, I am completely unaware of how Venus and Jupiter function in my life. I don't actively preoccupy myself with them, although of course I am an artist, which I almost take as a given... For me, it's the medium, but not the message, the form, but not the content. What does Venus as the sole dispositor tell me? Seems kind of like circular reasoning to explain that artistic talents come to me easily (music, art)...

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Moon provides the most important tension aspects in the chart. She is in detriment, and her lord Saturn is posited in the 12th and also in detriment. He participates in the formation we just discussed (aha! This may be more important than our first glance would imply), and beholds a separating square to Uranus.
I used to think that the Saturn-Uranus square was the key theme of my life story. Then someone said that the orb is too wide. I still think that it's an apt description of my life's mission.
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  #85  
Unread 12-09-2012, 09:16 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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It exists, but that is not your priority, thereby you ignore. Your case is a nice example, your mom being so creative, but you are away from most of the things she have as talent.
Yes, she may have more "creative" and "manual" talent, but I am a much deeper artist and thinker. In music, she could have been an accomplished performer if it hadn't been for the Cultural Revolution, but she is more of a music hobbyist and educator. I reached a much deeper level in music, also a much superior technique, as I never strayed to different instruments, just the piano for 20 years. In terms of contemporary art, she does not understand that world nor has the ambition to be an artist. She is more of a maker and a doer. When I was a kid, I used to always ask my mom why she would be so talented and so devoid of any higher professional or business ambitions. We don't really "get" each other but now we are great friends, and give each other the break we deserve. I think that my dad and I had the same core (he was a Picean theoretical physicist with very intense composer parents), and when he was alive, she was always on a mission to "change" us. That mutual resistance has finally loosened up and we can just let be.

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2nd house has more value for money (or any thing in practical sense). It is like being banker and like being lender. As you grow and mature, you will tend to become more and more practical, balanced (libra) and focused in 2nd house affairs.
I think that my Venus is in the 1st house. Or do you consider it in the second house?

I've always been puzzled by my 2nd house stellium and I doubt it means I'll be a banker. That would be too literal of an interpretation. I'll be doing what I've been doing all my life so I'm not looking for quick external success. Over the course of a lifetime, the message of my art will crystalize into a coherent body of work. I realize that I very rarely put my energy into something if I think that it's not going to make a big impact on my long-term goals. Thus cooking and sewing are not my big pass times, but the times I did, she was right, I was surprised to see that I know how to put a dish together better than most people. Thanks mom for passing me down those gifts
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Last edited by FarEastUranus; 12-09-2012 at 09:30 AM.
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  #86  
Unread 12-09-2012, 09:47 AM
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Smile Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

A Zen garden would be ideal [/QUOTE]

Ha! Yes it's very soothing. I have all sorts of DIY tea ceremony stuff. I very rarely get decoration objects that's not made by a friend or an artist that I want to support and that's not unique, one-of-a-kind in some way.

I do really have an urge to do pottery, clay sculpture, or ceramic art. That is very earthy
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Unread 12-09-2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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Is that all Venus means..."artistic"?

Sun square Uranus is certainly within orb...but it is separating.
Well the image of Venus could mean fertility, sensuality, creativity, artistry, abundance, relationships, affective abilities, warmth and playfulness, seductiveness... I have a no-nonsense, pared-down charm. Maybe I should really live out my 1st house Venus for once!

I think you meant Saturn square Uranus, but what is "separating"?
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Unread 12-09-2012, 11:38 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

Is that all Venus means..."artistic inclination"?

As I said earlier -- If I were you I would drop astrology like a hot potato. You only use it to stroke your self-centeredness, and have no idea how to use it or what its deeper meanings are. With five planets in Air, we might be led to think of you as "superficial".

Sun is not square Uranus, it is sextile. And even if it were square, your "purpose" is not described by some single aspect. It is seen by understanding the chart as a whole.

How to see the chart as a whole? Personally (each astrologer has their own methodology) I begin by looking at the whole-chart pattern. How are the planets distributed around the Earth? Are they all bunched up in one place (in your case No) or spread rather evenly all around the sky? (again, in your case No). Does one planet stand apart from all the others?

Your chart has some characteristics of two different pattern-types. The first is the type where one planet stands apart from the other nine. Jupiter does this, but only barely. The second pattern-type is where all planets lie within one hemisphere, defined by an effective opposition aspect. In your chart this is not the case; there is an effective opposition between Jupiter and Neptune, but the Moon stands outside this boundary.

Without discussing the technical reasons, I place your chart in the second pattern-type. It is a "Bowl", with Jupiter as the leading planet (a position which imbues this planet with superlative power in the chart; Jupiter also accrues power for other reasons....Jupiter must be considered as a primary force in the life.) In reading any chart, we always look for "the most powerful planet;" sometimes there is more than one which has considerably more influence than the rest. Venus is certainly powerful here, because she is Final Dispositor. Jupiter is accidentally the planet that dominates the chart; Venus is the essentially dominant one. The two are in almost partile trine -- and Venus is very closely conjunct Mercury, lord of Jupiter. We can see that these two powerful planets are in a harmonious relationship. Their positions directly on the cusps of friendly houses reiterates this harmonious relationship.

The pattern tells us a great deal about a person, without ever referring to any single planet. In your chart there is a T-square in Angular Houses and Common signs; it is focused in the First House, in the Sun. All of the planets but one are contained within the opposition of Jupiter to Neptune. The Moon stands outside this definitive formation, gives the pattern a tone that is dis-chordant, inharmonious, out of tune. The pattern is defined by the quincunx (an inconjunction) of Moon to Jupiter; it is within two degrees of perfection and clearly effective (acts as if an aspect).

We note that Jupiter is in detriment. We see that Moon is also in detriment, and furthermore is in the Fall of Jupiter. The discordant nature of the inconjunction is aggravated. This relationship of the two planets is very important. If this "aspect" defines the pattern of the chart, it also defines the pattern of the psyche and the pattern of the life. There is a basic disharmony here, an out-of-balance character to te chart. The strength of Libra (and Venus) point toward the urgent need to establish harmony and balance in the life. The inharmonious Moon-Jupiter relationship creates a powerful inner drive toward the establishment of harmony. We have just discovered a very fundamental characteristic of the life, a driving force.

The Moon has other interesting relationships. One is with Saturn. I might mention that Moon is the Mother in any chart. And in this chart, Jupiter is lord of the Fourth House, traditionally (in western astrology) the house of the father; Jupiter opposes his own house; he is distant, in exile, stands above all else and is a very dominant figure in this horoscope (we have already singled Jupiter out as the predominant planet). I mention this because the curious relationship of Moon and Saturn is a relationship between mother and father symbols.

I am not going to carry this any further. I'm sleepy, and I have shown in brief the method of analysis using pattern and structure.

One thing I will mention. I have already pointed out the minor formation of Saturn/Pluto-Sun. I suggested that it might concern persecution, or tragic social circumstances that somehow affect your life in their aftermath. Note that the secondary progressed Moon (which often depicts life events, and almost always portrays life-conditions and states of mind) contacts and activates all three members of this formation-complex at about your age 8 [allowing one degree = one year]. I already mentioned that Jupiter is "in exile"; note also the presence of Neptune in the Fourth (ruled by Jupiter and widely opposing him) and of Saturn in the 12th. I believe you have mentioned you are expatriate, and that your grandfather was in jail (persecution, tragic social circumstances and how their aftermath affects you). I wonder if and when these things touched your life.
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Unread 12-09-2012, 11:48 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

Aspects are of two types, dynamically.

When the faster planet occupies a lower zodiacal degree, the aspect has not yet become perfected (exact) and is "applying". It will perfect in the future.

When the faster planet occupies a higher zodiacal degree, the aspect has already become perfected and is "separating". The faster planet is movng away from the slower one. The "event" has already occurred, is in the past. Generally speaking, applying aspects are considered stronger and more effective than separating ones.

Saturn is in 11 degrees of Leo; Uranus is in 5 degrees of Scorpio. Saturn is faster than Uranus -- the square aspect was already completed 6 degrees ago, and Saturn is leaving Uranus behind. The aspect is separating.

Jupiter is in 1 degree Gemini, Sun in 11...Sun is faster than Jupiter. The square between them is separating, with an orb of 10 degrees (an acceptable orb when the aspect involves the Sun). However, Neptune is in 12 degrees of Sagittarius and is slower than the Sun. Therefore, because Sun is faster than Neptune, there is an applying square with an orb of 1 degree between them....a very powerful aspect. Further, both are angular, which increases their influence in the chart. The three planets are involved in a T-square in Common signs, and are all angular.

Some astrologers here will consider the opposition between Jupiter and Neptune as "out of orb" and therefore not effective. I consider the aspect to be within orb (10 degrees for heavy planets should certainly be considered as within orb, or at least allowed that potential). The orb is given additional "permission" because Neptune is in the sign and house ruled by Jupiter. Furthermore, the Sun -- whose 10 degree square to Jupiter is certainly allowable -- moves forward to carry Jupiter's influence to Neptune, thus perfecting the T-square. The square between Sun and Neptune has an orb of less than one degree (44' of arc) and is extremely powerful. The fact that Sun is simultaneously involved with Saturn and Pluto (also within partile orb of Neptune) serves to relate the significance of Neptune (by house particularly) with the significance of that formation of Saturn/Pluto-Sun. All together they paint a picture of life events and conditions -- which you will not find in any book.

The use of applying and separating aspects gives us one analytical tool for determing the relative strength (influence, effect) of planets and aspects in a chart. When combined with other such tools we have a very effective measure of relative strength. "Strength in the horoscope chart" is exactly equal to influence and effect in the personality and life. We are not interested in the horoscope per se, but in the personality and life of the individual the horoscope represents.

Last edited by greybeard; 12-09-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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Unread 12-09-2012, 12:53 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

HAve you done your progressed chart yet? We are not static beings.
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Unread 12-09-2012, 01:48 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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Is that all Venus means..."artistic inclination"?

As I said earlier -- If I were you I would drop astrology like a hot potato. You only use it to stroke your self-centeredness, and have no idea how to use it or what its deeper meanings are. With five planets in Air, we might be led to think of you as "superficial".
Ok, sure. Would you say that Pluto/Mars in Libra is also superficial?

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Your chart has some characteristics of two different pattern-types. The first is the type where one planet stands apart from the other nine. Jupiter does this, but only barely. The second pattern-type is where all planets lie within one hemisphere, defined by an effective opposition aspect. In your chart this is not the case; there is an effective opposition between Jupiter and Neptune, but the Moon stands outside this boundary.
Neither too focussed nor too spread apart...

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Without discussing the technical reasons, I place your chart in the second pattern-type. It is a "Bowl", with Jupiter as the leading planet (a position which imbues this planet with superlative power in the chart; Jupiter also accrues power for other reasons....Jupiter must be considered as a primary force in the life.) In reading any chart, we always look for "the most powerful planet;" sometimes there is more than one which has considerably more influence than the rest. Venus is certainly powerful here, because she is Final Dispositor. Jupiter is accidentally the planet that dominates the chart; Venus is the essentially dominant one. The two are in almost partile trine -- and Venus is very closely conjunct Mercury, lord of Jupiter. We can see that these two powerful planets are in a harmonious relationship. Their positions directly on the cusps of friendly houses reiterates this harmonious relationship.
Ok. Jupiter and Venus are the strongest planets and have a harmonious relationship. Airy dominance.

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Bowl : In this pattern the planets are grouped into a 'bowl' of one hemisphere of 180 degrees, or the equivalent of six zodiac signs. The pattern will have particular force if all the planets are contained within one hemisphere. A person with this pattern will be self-contained, and go in search of enterprises that are meaningful, fulfilling and personally relevant. They tend to have a ministerial quality that seeks the right kind of career or vocation that will produce the greatest benefit for themselves and others.
Only the Moon is outside of the bowl pattern, creating a handle according to Jones:
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Bucket : This pattern is similar to the bowl except that one of the planets is in the opposite hemisphere to all the others. This lone planet, or Singleton, serves as a handle, thus creating a 'bucket' form. In the bucket pattern is indicated a desire to become associated with activity in the mainstream of society, so that the person feels they belong. However, what this often means is that the person expects the world to discover their own unique talents, rather than them trying to fit in. They will usually direct their efforts to a single purpose, and strive to achieve objectives rather than act solely for their own self-preservation. The person will probably behave according to the nature of the Singleton planet that forms the handle of the pattern. This planet will exercise a greater influence than normal in the chart, and will be an important part of the dynamic of the person's activities and basic energy.
In French, we say never two without three, so finally, I think the Locomotive is the exact pattern, as exactly 150 degrees are unoccupied (between Jupiter and the Moon). The moon is again significant according to this pattern:
.
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Locomotive : This pattern is produced when all the planets are contained within 240 degrees or nine signs of the zodiac, so that a whole 120 degrees is completely unoccupied. The planet that rises clockwise following the empty space will significantly influence the life of the person with this pattern, no matter what is indicated by the sun sign. It will act as the 'locomotive' of the natal chart, driving the individual to achieve goals through determined and unrelenting effort, with an exceptional drive and fund of energy at their disposal. Such a person will often be a loner, waiting for the public to discover the truth of what they have been saying all along.
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The pattern tells us a great deal about a person, without ever referring to any single planet. In your chart there is a T-square in Angular Houses and Common signs; it is focused in the First House, in the Sun. All of the planets but one are contained within the opposition of Jupiter to Neptune. The Moon stands outside this definitive formation, gives the pattern a tone that is dis-chordant, inharmonious, out of tune. The pattern is defined by the quincunx (an inconjunction) of Moon to Jupiter; it is within two degrees of perfection and clearly effective (acts as if an aspect).
Yes. Father and Mother do not "get" each other, but respect each other mutually (sun trines moon). What I don't get is, how come the father symbol is represented by the Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn? Whereas the mother is only represented by the Moon?

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We note that Jupiter is in detriment. We see that Moon is also in detriment, and furthermore is in the Fall of Jupiter. The discordant nature of the inconjunction is aggravated. This relationship of the two planets is very important. If this "aspect" defines the pattern of the chart, it also defines the pattern of the psyche and the pattern of the life. There is a basic disharmony here, an out-of-balance character to te chart. The strength of Libra (and Venus) point toward the urgent need to establish harmony and balance in the life. The inharmonious Moon-Jupiter relationship creates a powerful inner drive toward the establishment of harmony. We have just discovered a very fundamental characteristic of the life, a driving force.
Yes, Jupiter falls in Capricorn. But... it is already in detriment in Gemini?

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The Moon has other interesting relationships. One is with Saturn. I might mention that Moon is the Mother in any chart. And in this chart, Jupiter is lord of the Fourth House, traditionally (in western astrology) the house of the father; Jupiter opposes his own house; he is distant, in exile, stands above all else and is a very dominant figure in this horoscope (we have already singled Jupiter out as the predominant planet). I mention this because the curious relationship of Moon and Saturn is a relationship between mother and father symbols.
Again, why is the father symbol so unstable? Jupitarian uplift, Saturnian shadowy figure, Solar uncertainties (Why Virgo? He was a Piscean...).

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One thing I will mention. I have already pointed out the minor formation of Saturn/Pluto-Sun. I suggested that it might concern persecution, or tragic social circumstances that somehow affect your life in their aftermath. Note that the secondary progressed Moon (which often depicts life events, and almost always portrays life-conditions and states of mind) contacts and activates all three members of this formation-complex at about your age 8 [allowing one degree = one year]. I already mentioned that Jupiter is "in exile"; note also the presence of Neptune in the Fourth (ruled by Jupiter and widely opposing him) and of Saturn in the 12th. I believe you have mentioned you are expatriate, and that your grandfather was in jail (persecution, tragic social circumstances and how their aftermath affects you). I wonder if and when these things touched your life.
Well, all 4 grandparents were in political prison at various times, paternal for 2 years, maternal for nearly 10. They were all released before my conception. What about Father's mother, and Father's father? Mother's mother? Is that represented by the chart? My 4 grandparents each have very complex backgrounds and were all from prominent families... A psychanalyst said that if he would work on me, he would have to start with my paternal grandmother...

We each left the country at different times, and I left at age 14 (end of 1990). But my father was already travelling in a lot of different countries since 1978, so did my maternal grandfather before and after the Cultural Revolution (a diplomat).
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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Some astrologers here will consider the opposition between Jupiter and Neptune as "out of orb" and therefore not effective. I consider the aspect to be within orb (10 degrees for heavy planets should certainly be considered as within orb, or at least allowed that potential). The orb is given additional "permission" because Neptune is in the sign and house ruled by Jupiter. Furthermore, the Sun -- whose 10 degree square to Jupiter is certainly allowable -- moves forward to carry Jupiter's influence to Neptune, thus perfecting the T-square. The square between Sun and Neptune has an orb of less than one degree (44' of arc) and is extremely powerful. The fact that Sun is simultaneously involved with Saturn and Pluto (also within partile orb of Neptune) serves to relate the significance of Neptune (by house particularly) with the significance of that formation of Saturn/Pluto-Sun. All together they paint a picture of life events and conditions -- which you will not find in any book.
What is the software you use to help you calculate this? Very fascinating.

Indeed I cannot find the interpretation in any book. But nor have you given it to me...

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The use of applying and separating aspects gives us one analytical tool for determing the relative strength (influence, effect) of planets and aspects in a chart. When combined with other such tools we have a very effective measure of relative strength. "Strength in the horoscope chart" is exactly equal to influence and effect in the personality and life. We are not interested in the horoscope per se, but in the personality and life of the individual the horoscope represents.
You have given me the mathematical explanation. Now I'm supposed to weave a story around this... Will sleep on this and get back to you tomorrow. Thank you.
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Unread 12-09-2012, 05:09 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

I'll try to cover your points and questions in order.

First, to Jazzy....If a person does not understand the natal chart, doing the progressed chart is not much more than an exercise in calculation. FarEast has "knowledge" but does not yet know how to apply and use it.

1. Pluto/Mars is intense, of course. But that is a modifying chart detail that does not fit into the chart overview. First is "Preponderance of Air." That takes precedence over the conjunction because it is general. We begin chart analysis with the most general, and work toward details. We are looking for the most general, but deepest, most pervasive, immutable, determinant features of the chart (personality, life).

Funny you should latch onto Mars/Pluto and not mention at all that we discovered a very fundamental, deep and powerful drive -- to establish harmony within an inner self that is out of harmony with itself. THAT is superficial, so I think you just answered your question.

2. The Moon is not a handle, not according to me and certainly not according to Jones. You have Jones sitting there with you, yet don't use his teachings or study them in depth. Again...superficiality. And you don't think for yourself and expand on what you have (or should have) learned. Moon is certainly not a handle planet -- doesn't even come close. Jupiter might be,,, almost but not quite. The handle of a Bucket MUST have a separation of at least 70 degrees from the main body of the planets, which is exactly the separation from Saturn. No matter which of three possible pattern-types you choose to classify this chart, Jupiter is in high focus and that is sufficient information for an incisive interpretation, without quibbling over "labels."

I'm sure you're a very interesting person. Sadly, you find yourself so interesting you fail to learn the astrology (and how to apply it) that might unlock the door to self-understanding, and instead just gaze at your reflection in the water.

3. I consider the pattern to be a Bowl, not a Locomotive. First, it does not have the trinal quality that is the defining characteristic of a locomotive. Second, except for the maverick Moon, the rest of the chart is contained within a Bowl that has a rim opposition, and it is Jupiter that participates in and rules the containing opposition, not Moon. Moon separates from, expands, the pattern -- it moves (progresses) toward a Locomotive rather than closing toward a Bowl. I would not argue against classification as a Locomotive, but I think we will find the Bowl more fitting.

What is important here is the defining quincunx of Jupiter and Moon.

4. I have said more than once on this forum: I am a male chauvinist. Father gets more goodies than mother. How come you don't understand that if Jupiter is "father" because he rules the 4th House (which I stated...I gave the "why"), then Mercury must equally rule "mother" as lord of the 10th? Saturn is a "father figure" in his essential nature; Jupiter is not, even though he is paternalistic. Jupiter is an accidental -- not essential -- symbol of father, in this chart but not in others, because of his house rulership (and other factors).

5. Jupiter is in detriment. I mention that he is in fall in Capricorn because Moon (in her detriment there) is affecting Jupiter from his fall, which aggravates the situation. In some other chart, if Moon were inconjunct Jupiter from Cancer (her own domicile and Jupiter's exaltation), the inconjunction would not be so severe and disruptive. And Jupiter -- in such a case -- might even be in his own sign of Sagittarius. Such an inconjunction would probably be no more than a minor annoyance. Here, however, it creates a major problem. And the problem is exacerbated because Jupiter is such a dominant force in the chart; the inconjunction affects the leading power in the personality, and also is the defining aspect of that personality Everything else in the pesonality is contained or defined by it. Look at the pattern; it speaks for itself.

6. I don't know why the father figure is "so unstable". I do my best to interpret horoscopes. I don't create them. You might want to talk to The Boss about this one.

7. I don't have any software to "calculate" all this. I look at the chart. It's all right there. I spent my first 30 years as a student of astrology without benefit of a computer; I'm used to looking at charts that way. When I cast a chart on my own program I do not include "aspect lines," nor does my tableau include a tabulation of aspects. Aspect lines get in the way of seeing the chart.

I don't interpret charts for people anymore. This is an astrology forum. I assume that means a person is interested in learning astrology. I enjoy helping people do that. I am not interested in playing to someone's ego by telling them all about themselves. You have Jones' "Guide...". Study it. Apply it. The goal in studying astrology (or any other subject or discipline on Earth) is not "knowledge" but Understanding. They are not the same.

My explanation is not mathematical. It is meant to analyze the interrelationships, relative strengths, and other features of the chart that will lead to an accurate and meaningful interpretation.

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Unread 12-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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I do not use Chiron....a rock with an unstable, unpredictable (for any long term) and deteriorating orbit is not my idea of an astrological symbol. It is totally unnecessary to any understanding of a horoscope. When you to the circus, do you pay attention to the elephants, or to the few pieces of popcorn the crowd has thrown to them? I live in Idaho...get a map of the world and a pencil. Mark a pencil-width line from Idaho Falls to Boise. This is about the size of Chiron. It is not even a speck of popcorn on the floor at the circus. There are millions of asteroids, in several classes (and specific locations). Where do we draw the line? Astrology works, is effective, because it reduces the vast and complex universe, in its entirety, to a simple and minimal set of symbols -- making it comprehensible to the human mind while still embracing the All. Why do we want to clutter up a proven system with every "novelty" we run across? If you can't read a chart with seven planets, what makes you think your skill will improve with ten, or twelve, or eighteen? Why not choose 360 asteroids to use in the chart? That offers the potential for an object in every horoscope degree -- it would give "the full picture." Then we could chuck in dark moons and ghost planets, lots of lots, degree symbols, fixed stars (the supply is limitless) and a kitchen sink or two.

I don't use Chiron. It is totally superfluous.
On the subject of size then... Earth is considered 'tiny for the universe', yet Pluto is many times smaller than Earth

The exact surface area of Pluto is about 3.3% of the surface area of the Earth


Pluto compared to a Country

Pluto's surface area is about 16,650,000 sq. km. and Russia is 17,075,400 sq. km.

So Russia's surface area is larger than Pluto's surface area
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Unread 12-09-2012, 06:03 PM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

And what would Chiron's relative surface area be?

Feel free to use Chiron if it pleases you. Feel free to discard Pluto if it pleases you.

I don't use Chiron, and gave my reasons. I think Chiron is nonsense, and adds nothing to an interpretation. It is possible I am wrong. But, stubborn old man that I am, you will have to show me it "works" before I change my mind. And you haven't done that, and will not.

I use ten planets. Seven is adequate. Using the other three fits into my methods, so I choose to employ them.

You seem to think astrology is based on the material, that it is somehow physical or concrete. That line of thought shows up (in my perception) repeatedly in things you say. I happen to hold a different point of view. No argument or discussion needed.

The possible selection of astrological symbols is as infinite as the universe itself. Our task is to select those symbols that provide us with the most manageable and useful system of thought.

The only "proof" or "validation" of any astrological symbol is in whether it works or not, and secondly, whether it provides information that other symbols do not. If it doesn't work it should be thrown out as junk; if it doesn't add to our understanding, it should be discarded as superfluous. The only way to prove a symbol is empirically, by using it repeatedly in charts. If it repeatedly appears as the significant factor in many different states or events (appropriate to its supposed symbolic meaning), then we can use it.

If you wish to defend Chiron, or convince me of its value, there is only one way to do that. Fire when ready, Gridley.

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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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I do not use Chiron....I live in Idaho...get a map of the world and a pencil. Mark a pencil-width line from Idaho Falls to Boise. This is about the size of Chiron. It is not even a speck of popcorn on the floor at the circus.....
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And what would Chiron's relative surface area be?
Do you have a magnifying glass or preferably a powerful telescope with which to examine that 'speck of popcorn on the floor at the circus'?
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Unread 12-10-2012, 05:01 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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1. Pluto/Mars is intense, of course. But that is a modifying chart detail that does not fit into the chart overview. First is "Preponderance of Air." That takes precedence over the conjunction because it is general. We begin chart analysis with the most general, and work toward details. We are looking for the most general, but deepest, most pervasive, immutable, determinant features of the chart (personality, life).

Funny you should latch onto Mars/Pluto and not mention at all that we discovered a very fundamental, deep and powerful drive -- to establish harmony within an inner self that is out of harmony with itself. THAT is superficial, so I think you just answered your question.
That preponderance of air is led by Jupiter conjunct MC, in a cooperative "raising up" of Venus-led Libran stellium, making up the uplifting trine air configuration.

Philandering Zeus (oh, how I wished my father was seductive and sexy, but he was an optimistic, open-minded, one-of-a-kind, truth-seeking nerd) and promiscuous Venus working together could give a "superficial" outlook, but in some myths, Zeus and Venus were father and daughter.

One can see Jupiter's influence for the aspiration for journeying, geographical, mental, and spiritual. There's a delight in all new, expansive experiences that bring a sense of freedom, new perspectives, and connections to truth. Furthermore, Jupiter enjoys assuming different personifications in the archetypal form of teachers, mentors, guideposts, and they always come in time for various stages of breakthrough in my life. I am aided on my path to truth and knowledge and the path is uplifting and involves the expansion of movement and thoughts (Libra to Gemini).

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2. The Moon is not a handle, not according to me and certainly not according to Jones. You have Jones sitting there with you, yet don't use his teachings or study them in depth. Again...superficiality. And you don't think for yourself and expand on what you have (or should have) learned. Moon is certainly not a handle planet -- doesn't even come close. Jupiter might be,,, almost but not quite. The handle of a Bucket MUST have a separation of at least 70 degrees from the main body of the planets, which is exactly the separation from Saturn. No matter which of three possible pattern-types you choose to classify this chart, Jupiter is in high focus and that is sufficient information for an incisive interpretation, without quibbling over "labels."

I'm sure you're a very interesting person. Sadly, you find yourself so interesting you fail to learn the astrology (and how to apply it) that might unlock the door to self-understanding, and instead just gaze at your reflection in the water.
I do not have a manual book by Jones and did not know about the 70 degree pre-requisite. Criticism taken into account.

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3. I consider the pattern to be a Bowl, not a Locomotive. First, it does not have the trinal quality that is the defining characteristic of a locomotive. Second, except for the maverick Moon, the rest of the chart is contained within a Bowl that has a rim opposition, and it is Jupiter that participates in and rules the containing opposition, not Moon. Moon separates from, expands, the pattern -- it moves (progresses) toward a Locomotive rather than closing toward a Bowl. I would not argue against classification as a Locomotive, but I think we will find the Bowl more fitting.

What is important here is the defining quincunx of Jupiter and Moon.
You mean the locomotive must be opposing a Trine? I am unaware of that as well.

Interesting you use the term Maverick moon. My mom is an upholder of tradition, family as a nucleus, blue-collar work ethics, community values and restrictions (Saturnine). The main tension in the family was held by her, wanting to restrict my dad and my own outrageous expansions and expeditions. But dad and I were not at all bothered, and she did all the worrying for us. So the aspects are actually quite apt description of the family dynamic.

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The planet that rises clockwise following the empty space will significantly influence the life of the person with this pattern, no matter what is indicated by the sun sign.
I noticed that Jones mentioned that in the case of a locomotive, the planet immediately after the empty space clockwise is the key. In my case, this is the moon. Of course, that does not negate Jupiter's influence in any way.

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4. I have said more than once on this forum: I am a male chauvinist. Father gets more goodies than mother. How come you don't understand that if Jupiter is "father" because he rules the 4th House (which I stated...I gave the "why"), then Mercury must equally rule "mother" as lord of the 10th? Saturn is a "father figure" in his essential nature; Jupiter is not, even though he is paternalistic. Jupiter is an accidental -- not essential -- symbol of father, in this chart but not in others, because of his house rulership (and other factors).
Wow! I did not realize that Mercury rules as the "mother" in my chart. Should I look at the final dispositor of Mercury - Venus? There's a splitting off of both the mother and father archetype. Mother into Venus and Moon, and father into Jupiter, Saturn, and Sun?

In the case of Saturn in Leo, should I look at the Sun in Virgo? Look for the final dispositor? What is the method here?

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5. Jupiter is in detriment. I mention that he is in fall in Capricorn because Moon (in her detriment there) is affecting Jupiter from his fall, which aggravates the situation. In some other chart, if Moon were inconjunct Jupiter from Cancer (her own domicile and Jupiter's exaltation), the inconjunction would not be so severe and disruptive. And Jupiter -- in such a case -- might even be in his own sign of Sagittarius. Such an inconjunction would probably be no more than a minor annoyance. Here, however, it creates a major problem. And the problem is exacerbated because Jupiter is such a dominant force in the chart; the inconjunction affects the leading power in the personality, and also is the defining aspect of that personality Everything else in the pesonality is contained or defined by it. Look at the pattern; it speaks for itself.
Ok. Would you consider an inconjunction better or worse than unaspected planets. For example, there are no aspects between Saturn and Moon, even though Saturn is my Moon's lord...

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6. I don't know why the father figure is "so unstable". I do my best to interpret horoscopes. I don't create them. You might want to talk to The Boss about this one.
Even though my Moon creates all the tensions represented by the squares, I am very conscious of my feminine nature (Moon and Venus). I think that in my psyche, Saturn and Sun are my unconscious planets. When I read and study them, the things I read do not immediately resonate or speak to me.

When I say "unstable", I mean that there's no fixed position or identity. It seems that my father is both "this" and "that" and "some of that". It's a very incoherent picture.

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7. I don't have any software to "calculate" all this. I look at the chart. It's all right there. I spent my first 30 years as a student of astrology without benefit of a computer; I'm used to looking at charts that way. When I cast a chart on my own program I do not include "aspect lines," nor does my tableau include a tabulation of aspects. Aspect lines get in the way of seeing the chart.
My dad was really adamant about refusing to get me the Texas Instruments calculator required for Trigonometry and Calculus. I cried and raged for days, to absolute no avail. In the end, I passed AP Calculus with the highest scores in the class, 2 years ahead of my classmates. So I understand what you mean about softwares as crutches.

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I don't interpret charts for people anymore. This is an astrology forum. I assume that means a person is interested in learning astrology. I enjoy helping people do that. I am not interested in playing to someone's ego by telling them all about themselves. You have Jones' "Guide...". Study it. Apply it. The goal in studying astrology (or any other subject or discipline on Earth) is not "knowledge" but Understanding. They are not the same.

My explanation is not mathematical. It is meant to analyze the interrelationships, relative strengths, and other features of the chart that will lead to an accurate and meaningful interpretation.
Thank you. I appreciate the analysis and the intentional withdrawal of all interpretations except the most "superficial" parts. Hope you enjoyed it too.
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Unread 12-10-2012, 05:16 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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One thing I will mention. I have already pointed out the minor formation of Saturn/Pluto-Sun. I suggested that it might concern persecution, or tragic social circumstances that somehow affect your life in their aftermath. Note that the secondary progressed Moon (which often depicts life events, and almost always portrays life-conditions and states of mind) contacts and activates all three members of this formation-complex at about your age 8 [allowing one degree = one year]. I already mentioned that Jupiter is "in exile"; note also the presence of Neptune in the Fourth (ruled by Jupiter and widely opposing him) and of Saturn in the 12th. I believe you have mentioned you are expatriate, and that your grandfather was in jail (persecution, tragic social circumstances and how their aftermath affects you). I wonder if and when these things touched your life.
I went to school one year early, at the age of 5, and performed very poorly (hyperactivity, lack of understanding and respect for authority, inability to complete any homework). When I was 8, one of my aunts thought that I had early tuberculosis and pulled me to a children's hospital for 3 months. My mom then decided to submit for a sabbatical for the whole year because I was so hopeless at school. She was also a star music teacher at the entire school district and felt embarrassed by my poor performance. This is actually when I did a lot of gardening, meditation, reading, lots of travelling with my dad, and also many hours of piano, administered by my mom. At the end of the year, we did an X-ray and there was nothing in my lungs - most patients, even when they recover, would have a scar showing in the X-rays. I really wonder if I had tuberculosis or not. I certainly didn't suffer at all physically.

After that year, I returned and picked up at 4th grade with a new group of kids, and I managed ok, but not spectacular. When I was in 5th, esp. 6th grade, all of a sudden, everything academic clicked into place almost as if in a flash and became effortless. And it has been since. But the ADHD has always been there, and I have been sent for diagnosis and treatment many times.

About the 4th house Sagittarius in exile, I am actually back to my home country after many years abroad (4 different continents altogether). Like many things in life, it was not a voluntary or conscious decision, but I might stay for some time. I feel more in exile in my own country, and it's not related to the fact that I no longer have its citizenship...
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Unread 12-10-2012, 06:21 AM
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

Astrological symbolism does not derive from mythology.

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The planet that rises clockwise following the empty space will significantly influence the life of the person with this pattern, no matter what is indicated by the sun sign.
I noticed that Jones mentioned that in the case of a locomotive, the planet immediately after the empty space clockwise is the key. In my case, this is the moon. Of course, that does not negate Jupiter's influence in any way.

Here you misunderstand what Jones is saying. When he says "rises clockwise" he is referring to the Primum Mobile (diurnal motion of the heavens around the Earth). The sky turns clockwise, and Jupiter is the first to rise after the empty space.

Saturn and Moon are intimately related without aspect. Study what it means to "lord". Mao was lord of China for a long while. He "disposed" the land and its people. He "determined" their course. Lords dispose and determine...look up the words in your dictionary. Lords rule; their word is law. The condition of the lord deeply affects the behavior and fate of the ruled.

I don't look at horoscopes in terms of "better or worse." I simply try to fathom what is described.
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Unread 12-11-2012, 04:47 AM
13.Fairy 13.Fairy is offline
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Re: Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarEastUranus View Post
Folks,

I'm a bit desperate because people always do not believe that I'm a Virgo. I've often been told that I'm either an air or fire sign.

Fact is, I am Virgo Sun, Virgo Ascendant, and it just doesn't make any sense. I tend to be: overly optimistic, self-indulgent and indulgent with friends and people I love (thus utterly uncritical), happy-go-lucky, un-gossipy, big-picture intuitive-feeling type. People say that they always know where they stand with me, because I don't do small talks if I don't like the vibes someone gives off. I am however good at keeping secrets for others and am quite discriminating (My first impressions of people are always dead on and I make friends quickly and can always count on their long-term royalty).

Here I attach a chart, and picture, as people have proposed rectifications based on these. I don't think I'm a Leo Asc. Maybe more Libra Ascendant in terms of character (although the Libra stellium could also be the reason).

Just the other day, I was at a family gathering for the opening of my uncle's exhibition, and there was a sun sign discussion on the table, and everybody felt a perfect match to their Asc and sun sign, except me, even though I had the most knowledge in astrology. They were making jokes such as: it would be great if you had some Virgo in you, you'd be more on time (more organized, more detail-oriented, more concientious, vacuum your room more, you fill in the blank..). So please, if anyone can shed a light on my plight, as I'm about to give up astrology
Hey FarEastUranus,

You remind me of myself, as well in the search for the truth...LOL
Only I had Capricorn sun and Capricorn rising. My chart to me was an extremely contradictory case, and I had to be honest with myself and admit that it wasn't me, I researched till I came to that knowledge that the true chart is the draconic, only that through the precession of the equinox the spring equinox is at 6 degree pisces currently, so that you have to count back every planet some 23-24 degrees from your draconic charts planets positions to find out your real chart. You have to calculate from the geocentric to the sidereal chart to see the exact difference by degree which it makes (in my case it is 23.37) and count that back from the draconic charts positions to get your real chart. Of course you have to count back the houses too.

I counted back my chart and finally found myself in that, notto mention that all those years I wondered about the signs and always said I'm in real like the chart that I counted now, the draconic to 6 degree pisces.

Hope I helped

Last edited by 13.Fairy; 12-11-2012 at 10:10 PM.
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