How does one determine sect?

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Re: Chat Thread

Probably my dad was like that? I don't know, he was a whirling vortex of negativity pretty much all the time.

How unbiased is this judgement? Don't you think your relationship to him would be a barrier to a proper appraisal?

I am not sure how easy they would be to find. You might be able to find some online, but people looking for astrological help online may be desperate but at least tend to have hope, otherwise they wouldn't be asking. They seem like they'd be really hard to find among famous people, too, because when someone's life ***** and then they die they're unlikely to do anything to be famous for... so I dunno.

Even if someone was the most disgusting, shut-in, vice-filled degenerate who can't leave their house, I bet there is something in their chart that they could build on. Compared to the shitshow that is their life it might be as small as the tip of a needle but it is something that they can grasp.

You're probably right that it has a lot to do with hope.
 

animatedoodle

Well-known member
Re: Chat Thread

Kinda sorta. I was reading on out of sect planets and too much dignity in a chart....which mine has. Having the greater malefic out of sect, as well as Jupiter while having both square Mars who is supposed to be happy doesn't....look so good. It might explain something I'm not willing to disclose. :bandit:


Jupiter is a funny one. I have a LOT of Jupiter influence (I just found out) and he is out of sect. Explains a lot about my lack of boundaries. Did you say your Jupiter was in sect squaring an out of sect Mars?

Apologies if this was discussed before, I just want to note it down for my studies.

And I'm not stalking you or creating a file or anything. :w00t::w00t::whistling::whistling:


k5HpV54KWIv28.gif
 

Blaze

Account Closed
Re: Chat Thread

Jupiter is a funny one. I have a LOT of Jupiter influence (I just found out) and he is out of sect. Explains a lot about my lack of boundaries. Did you say your Jupiter was in sect squaring an out of sect Mars?

Apologies if this was discussed before, I just want to note it down for my studies.

And I'm not stalking you or creating a file or anything. :w00t::w00t::whistling::whistling:


k5HpV54KWIv28.gif

Jupiter out of sect, Mars in sect.

Can I at least see the stalker file you have on me? lel

NO thankfully!! Or else I would be so selfishly annoying. My sister has the conjunction in Leo and dang she talks with like this "I only see me" attitude.

But nonetheless, Leo energy is awesome! Something that only you and I can see good in. Consy and Blaze think Leos are lame.

My Moon thinks otherwise, but I don't use it enough. Maybe I'll wipe off the dust on it and consult it later. Just for you, Banana head. *snickers*
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Whoa, this became a thread. lol.

Thanks to whomever did so!

I'll get even more answers now.
Astrological Signs classified by Sect:
Sect and Sex of the Signs
http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/?p=247

'...there was diversity in opinion :smile:
regarding the classifications of signs into diurnal or day signs and nocturnal or night signs
also known as the classification of the signs by sect.
Interestingly, Marcus Manilius, one of the earliest astrologers of the tradition
who composed his Astronomica in the 1st Century CE, noted (in Book II, lines 203-222)
a diversity of opinion regarding the sect of the signs
and he himself favored a sect classification that is no longer used by traditional astrologer....'
 

tsmall

Premium Member
How does one determine sect? By this I mean with my own chart of course.

Sect is a particular passion of mine. :cool:

The overall "sect" of the chart is determined by the lights, and for all intents and purposes if the Sun is on or above the horizon then the chart is diurnal; below and the chart is nocturnal. From there it gets a bit more complicated.

Looking at it after doing some light reading on sect has made me wonder about Saturn and Jupiter. Both are strong in my chart, yet, being Diurnal planets in a nocturnal chart....does this make them out of sect?

It depends. Like I said, it gets a bit more complicated. The word "sect" itself comes from the Greek haíresis, and carries implications of religious thoughts and "us vs. them" ideology. The word heresy is derived from this, and carries similar meanings. It gets even more complicated because astrologers after the Greeks conflated "sect" with "domain," brought us my little buddies Hayz and Halb, and yeah. Let's see if we can make it easier...

If the Sun is above (or, to me, because the twilight issue is an essential one) within 5* of the ASC according to diurnal motion, the Sun is sect light and the in-sect planets are Jupiter and Saturn. We all know that Mercury is tricky, but if Mercury rises before the Sun he is diurnal, after he is nocturnal. If the Sun is more than 5* by diurnal motion below the horizon, the Moon is sect light and the in-sect planets are Mars and Venus.

Ok, but WHY are these planets given these particular sects? The Sun and Moon make sense (duh), but why are Jupiter and Saturn aligned with the Sun and Venus and Mars with the Moon? The reason is largely due to planetary nature. We know that Jupiter is a hot and moist planet, and the nighttime reduces the heat/expansion. To get the maximum out of the greater benefic, he prefers when the Sun is out (with a caveat, which we will get to.) Saturn is cold and dry, but it is the excessive coldness we want to temper, so we prefer a solar-heated Saturn. Conversely, Mars is by nature excessivly hot and dry, and putting him in the nighttime sect tempers his heat. Venus is naturally cool (a temperate coldness) and moist and prefers the night...see how that works?

The sect light will tell us which planets are on team native, and which planets are on team "other people doing things to native."

From there we get to hayz and halb. Because once we determine the sect of the chart as a whole, we have to figure out how these planets are going to behave. This is where the ideas of sect got conflated with domain. Diurnal planets want to be on the same side of the horizon as the Sun, nocturnal planets on the opposite side. Makes sense? Hayz is when a diurnal planet is above the horizon in a day chart and in a sign that agrees with its gender. Or if a nocturnal planet is above the horizon in a nighttime chart and in a sign that agrees with its gender. Halb is simply if a planet is configured on the proper side of the horizon according to sect.

Again, why does this matter? It has to do with with domain, or more appropriately what is called "similitude." You can google the etymology and find the biblical/religious references for yourself. For the purposes of astrology (note to those who can't understand peregrine planets, here's where we figure it out.) Planets want to be on the proper side of the horizon according to their sect (haireses) and in signs, quadrants, even drilling down to degrees that agree with their gender. In those places, even though the might not have essential dignity, they have similarity, or are in a place that largely agrees with their nature. If they are found otherwise, then they must act against their nature, which puts them at a distinct disadvantage.


And I know Mars is comfy in a night chart, so that would make my own Mars in sect but in the 12th house, so I'm not too sure how comfy he is, even though in it's home sign of Aries.

Conflating different concepts here. Mars in Aries (domicile) in a night chart, on the right side of the horizon (and the 12th is part of a masculine quadrant) is extremely cozy. He's also extremely cadent. There is a difference between capability (this is a completely competent Mars) and actual ability to act. I've used this analogy before, but a planet that is capable to act but unable to do so is like a piano prodigy who never has access to a piano. All sizzle and no steak.



Or are Saturn and Jupiter in sect do to the fact that they inhabit feminine signs?

Saturn sits in Capricorn, rx, while Jupiter sits in Cancer.

Each planet, while the ruler of three (except the lights) signs if we include exaltation, has a particular sign in which they "rejoice." I'd say it has less to do with feminine vs. masculine and more to do with the idea that Saturn prefers Capricorn at night and Jupiter is exalted in Cancer. And this brings up a whole other can of worms. Saturn rx in Cap is very happily being Saturn and rejecting/returning all comers because he is retrograde. Like the slap happy postman who stamps "return to sender" on every piece of mail. Jupiter in Cancer is exalted, which means he has the ability to bring about his significations as long as he isn't cadent (though the square from Saturn seems, without looking at an actual chart, to be a bit of an impediment), but they probably won't be as long lasting. More like...easy come, easy go.


Huh. I'm confusing myself now. Maybe I should have made a thread for this. :confused:

JUPITERASC pointed out that this should be a thread. It's good to pm a mod every now and then. :wink:
 
Last edited:

graay ghost

Well-known member
tsmall, a question:

For purposes of above/below the horizon, what about planets that seem to be (pretty much) exactly on the horizon at time of birth?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
tsmall, a question:

For purposes of above/below the horizon, what about planets that seem to be (pretty much) exactly on the horizon at time of birth?

That really depends on who you ask. <Most> astrologers will look to see on which side of the horizon they actually fall, but will default to the rules of angularity. If a planet is above the horizon, but witin 5* by zodiacal motion it is considered to be in the next, i.e. 1st house. This actually brings up an interesting difference between planets in the 12th house but in the same sign as the ascending degree. They can "see" or regard the ascendant, but if not within 5* of it are unable to act. Talk about being on the outside looking in...
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
That really depends on who you ask. <Most> astrologers will look to see on which side of the horizon they actually fall, but will default to the rules of angularity. If a planet is above the horizon, but witin 5* by zodiacal motion it is considered to be in the next, i.e. 1st house. This actually brings up an interesting difference between planets in the 12th house but in the same sign as the ascending degree. They can "see" or regard the ascendant, but if not within 5* of it are unable to act. Talk about being on the outside looking in...

Are you just talking about what a lot of people interpret, or what you do? I thought you used whole house? Do you see this, planets in the same sign as the ASC but above the horizon and not within 5 degrees of ASC seeming more 12 house?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Are you just talking about what a lot of people interpret, or what you do? I thought you used whole house?

I use both whole signs and Placidus. The original idea of quadrant based house systems was to determine angularity, and never to replace the concept of topics. So I count signs for topics and use a house system overlaid onto it. Because, as I mentioned above, capibility and angularity/ability to act are two different things.

Do you see this, planets in the same sign as the ASC but above the horizon and not within 5 degrees of ASC seeming more 12 house?

That is going to depend on what you mean by "more 12 house." Best example I can give is my own chart. I have a 12th house Sun at 2* Libra, with the ASC at 14* Libra. Make no mistake, it's a 12th house Sun, but that it can actually "see" the ASC means that...well, the nature of the Sun is to select, and wanting to be in the 1st because you can see it taste it, almost touch it, yet stuck behind the glass in the 12th speaks differently than a Virgo Sun with Libra rising. So if a planet in the 12th is described as being "behind the scenes," but a planet is in the 12th but the same sign as the ascendant, its more like stuck behind the scenes when you really want to be center stage.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
I use both whole signs and Placidus. The original idea of quadrant based house systems was to determine angularity, and never to replace the concept of topics. So I count signs for topics and use a house system overlaid onto it. Because, as I mentioned above, capibility and angularity/ability to act are two different things.



That is going to depend on what you mean by "more 12 house." Best example I can give is my own chart. I have a 12th house Sun at 2* Libra, with the ASC at 14* Libra. Make no mistake, it's a 12th house Sun, but that it can actually "see" the ASC means that...well, the nature of the Sun is to select, and wanting to be in the 1st because you can see it taste it, almost touch it, yet stuck behind the glass in the 12th speaks differently than a Virgo Sun with Libra rising. So if a planet in the 12th is described as being "behind the scenes," but a planet is in the 12th but the same sign as the ascendant, its more like stuck behind the scenes when you really want to be center stage.

That sounds terribly depressing... I mean, what is one even supposed to do with that?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
That sounds terribly depressing... I mean, what is one even supposed to do with that?

Well, what you do with everything else. Find a way to make it work for you. Or get depressed and cry about it forever. Personally (Mars in Cap in 4th sign, 3rd house) I hate when people sit around crying about how unfair the world is, or whatever. I mean, get up and do something about it. :wink: Even if it takes you 47 years to figure it out. :whistling:

**edit to add, in any chart, the natal is the base. There will be times when profections change things up. A 12th house planet WILL become angular for specific periods of time, and this works with all the time lords. So even though we have cadent, sorry planets, they too get their chance to go out and do something. And that brings us back to why it's important to understand sect, domain, similitude and angularity. When those not-so-shiney planets get their turn, we want to have a basic understanding of what they will do.
 
Last edited:

graay ghost

Well-known member
Well, what you do with everything else. Find a way to make it work for you. Or get depressed and cry about it forever. Personally (Mars in Cap in 4th sign, 3rd house) I hate when people sit around crying about how unfair the world is, or whatever. I mean, get up and do something about it. :wink: Even if it takes you 47 years to figure it out. :whistling:
People (maybe not you, necessarily) have this bizarre idea that "crying about how unfair the world is" and "getting up and doing something" is an either/or proposition. It most certainly is not. I don't know why people think that way?

**edit to add, in any chart, the natal is the base. There will be times when profections change things up. A 12th house planet WILL become angular for specific periods of time, and this works with all the time lords. So even though we have cadent, sorry planets, they too get their chance to go out and do something. And that brings us back to why it's important to understand sect, domain, similitude and angularity. When those not-so-shiney planets get their turn, we want to have a basic understanding of what they will do.


Are all cadent planets sorry?
Save
 

tsmall

Premium Member
People (maybe not you, necessarily) have this bizarre idea that "crying about how unfair the world is" and "getting up and doing something" is an either/or proposition. It most certainly is not. I don't know why people think that way?

I agree. I cry all the time about how things are, and then get up and do something about it. And you are completely correct to point out that my post made it seem like an either/or proposition, when clearly it isn't. So what I meant was...you know how there are people who have a ****** lot in life, for whatever reason (either because the world/their life/chart is unfair...unfair being a euphimism for whatever ****** situation they find themselves in) and seem largly content to do nothing more than complain about it? I call those "needs to be movers." It's like they know they have it sucky, but not quite sucky enough to be motivated to change it, so they sit around all day and complain about it. Sometimes, they even wrap themselves in it like a blanket. Those are the people who can't get up and do something about it.


Are all cadent planets sorry?
Save

No, and there you go again doing what I usually do, pointing out where the language isn't clear. :surprised: In that post, cadent and sorry are two entirely different circumstances. Punctuation is lacking.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
I agree. I cry all the time about how things are, and then get up and do something about it. And you are completely correct to point out that my post made it seem like an either/or proposition, when clearly it isn't. So what I meant was...you know how there are people who have a ****** lot in life, for whatever reason (either because the world/their life/chart is unfair...unfair being a euphimism for whatever ****** situation they find themselves in) and seem largly content to do nothing more than complain about it? I call those "needs to be movers." It's like they know they have it sucky, but not quite sucky enough to be motivated to change it, so they sit around all day and complain about it. Sometimes, they even wrap themselves in it like a blanket. Those are the people who can't get up and do something about it.

I like blankets...

I don't know. I guess it's also easy to be crying and running around doing stuff but all the stuff you're doing is actually just going in circles because you're doing stuff just because you're not comfortable sitting still...

I'm not sure. It does seem like people have a lot of opinions on what people "should" be doing and making value judgements based on that. If people are miserable and want to stay miserable, who are we to begrudge their misery?

No, and there you go again doing what I usually do, pointing out where the language isn't clear. :surprised: In that post, cadent and sorry are two entirely different circumstances. Punctuation is lacking.

Oh. Well, I've just seen a few posts about cadent planets being ineffectual so I was just curious.
Save
 

Alkaid

Active member
Not all cadent planets are ineffective.

The 9th house is atleast a very good house, if not a great one. It's above the horizon, trines the ascendant and is the joy of the sun; the most important of the planets. Apart from the cadent distinction (which I feel is overrated compared to the more important criterias of the aspect the house makes to the ascendant and whether it's above or below the horizon), it's pretty much perfect. In the vedic tradition the 9th is very highly esteemed.

It may be an idea to look at what the 9th house represents: spirituality, higher education, the house of enlightenment and god. It's also worth noting that for most of history having a college degree meant a lot more than it does now, it pretty much guaranteed you a good job and thus a good position in society. These new liberal arts degrees that are flooding the scene but aren't worth the paper they are written on is more of a modern invention. So getting a bachelor and working at mcdonalds wasn't something that happened as much back then, well if mcdonalds existed in the middle ages or further back. Plus way more people attend school now, compared to the older eras, when attending college or university was a sign of somewhat higher social status.

The 3rd is much lower than the 9th however. The 3rd is below the horizon and only sextiles the ascendant. However it is the moons joy. The 3rd is a good house, but not really any better than that.

The 6th and the 12th are the worst of all the houses. So with the cadent houses you're running the gamut going from very good(maybe great), to good or mildly good, to horrible..So lumping all 4 cadent houses together as being ineffective isn't really accurate with their being such a gulf between many of them.
 

david starling

Well-known member
[Quote: The 6th and the 12th are the worst of all the houses.]

For you maybe. They're great for me, along with Jupiter in the 9th.
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The 6th and the 12th are the worst of all the houses.

For you maybe. They're great for me, along with Jupiter in the 9th.
It is certainly entirely possible that 12th house may work in favor of the native
and yet traditionally speaking
remain one of the worst of all of the houses


your introductory post for 5 April 2015 provides your planet locations
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=613216&postcount=1
Hi! My Community name is David Starling.
My Sun is at 28 degrees Pisces, Ascendant, Mercury and "the red planet" all solidly in Pisces;
Moon and Venus in Aquarius;
Jupiter in Scorpio,
Saturn in Leo,
Uranus in Gemini,
Neptune in Libra,
and Pluto in Leo.

I am very happy to have found this website!
your opinion on another thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=661925&postcount=114
I'm firmly convinced H12 is about the FACULTY of Imagination, and the conscious enjoyment of flights of fancy.
Just be careful not to exceed the baggage limitation.
(Moon and Venus in Aquarius in H12, here.)
If one isn't suited for it--crash and burn!
So we have
Scorpio Jupiter is in 9th Cadent House
Aquarius Moon and Venus both in 12th Cadent House

Pisces Ascendant
Pisces Mercury & Mars

and so
Unless the Pisces planets are crowded closely :smile:
Sun is at 28 Pisces in First house
seems this is a night chart
with Venus, Moon, Mars on team native

as tsmall commented earlier

Sect is a particular passion of mine. :cool:

The sect light will tell us which planets are on team native,
and which planets are on team "other people doing things to native."
 

david starling

Well-known member
JUPITERASC, here's what MIGHT be the case: On a graduated scale--about 25% of Charts have very fortunate 6th and 12th House placements; about 25% have very unfortunate 6th and 12th House placements; and, for the majority 50 % or so, with neither fortunate nor unfortunate as the median, gradually becoming more fortunate in one direction, and more unfortunate in the other. Sounds reasonable, considering all the potential variables. If this is correct (maybe a Maths-wizard would care to comment), and Traditional sources universally consider the 6th and 12th as the "worst" of Houses, it would appear that those sources are those eminent, published Astrologers who drew the short straw in their own Charts; or happened to end up with a skewed sample; or simply felt that being at the Horizon-line is automatically, ipso facto, a bad place for a House to be situated. And yet, as you say, H12 (which seems to have a worse rep than H6) CAN possibly work in favor of the native, depending on the circumstances.
 
Last edited:
Top