Seven Arguments for why the Sidereal Zodiac is the best form of sign division.

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
But here you are posting ancient pulley's and lever's, Lol.
Pulleys and levers...
are you sure I'm the one who underestimates our ancient forefathers?

Look, jokes aside, lets assume that all of those findings are legit.
And the ancients built the first computer.
It still doesn't rival the technology we have today.
Hell, our technology from 10 years ago doesn't even rival what we have today.
We've collected more information in the past 5-10 years then we have in the entirety of human existence.
In addition to that, unless the ancients had something akin to the Internet,
which allows the sharing of information with fine fella's like yourselves, we're still way ahead.
Again, it's a great time to be alive.
and you consider yourself unbiased :smile:
'......Cicero wrote of a bronze device
made by Archimedes in the third century B.C.
And James Evans, a historian of astronomy at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington
thinks that the eclipse cycle represented is Babylonian in origin
and begins in 205 B.C
.
Maybe it was Hipparchus, an astronomer in Rhodes around that time
who worked out the math behind the device.
He is known for having blended the arithmetic-based predictions of Babylonians
with geometric theories favored by the Greeks
.
...'


The Antithykera Mechanism
is by far the most advanced piece of ancient technology ever discovered
is older than we thought
and
not quite as Greek as we thought either
. :smile:
Researchers think they have identified a particular solar eclipse
predicted by the device's complex cycle of astronomical calculations
which can find the location of the Sun and Moon, the phase of the Moon
and possibly the positions of the planets for any given day.
Christian Carman, a science historian at the National University of Quilmes in Argentina
and James Evans, a physicist at the University of Puget Sound in Washington
reached their conclusions by comparing the mechanism's eclipse predictions
found on the Saros dial
with records from Babylon.
That gave them the cosmological clockwork's start date
12 May 205BC
more than a century earlier than originally thought :smile:


The evidence persuaded Drs Carman and Evans that
the ANTITHYKERA mechanism was designed according to Babylonian arithmetic principles

rather than Greek trigonometry, which had not been invented in 205BC.
But while the principle used was imported
it remains likely that the mechanism was built in Greece
the lettering on it is Greek
it has a dial that predicts when the Olympic Games will be held
and
bears an inscription mentioning an athletic event on Rhodes.

NEVERTHELESS

The markings on the face of the device
show both Babylonian and Egyptian dates translated into Greek. :smile:





Although it is possible
that the device was configured

to start at a point in time earlier than its date of manufacture
that would make it less accurate :smile:

hence less useful
as tiny errors accumulate over time
And accuracy was clearly a primary concern of the maker
since the device gets its astronomy spot on.
Drs Carman and Evans research only became possible
after the discovery by Tony Freeth and his colleagues

that the dial on the lower back of the device corresponded to the Saros cycle of eclipses.
 
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SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
Pulleys and levers...are you sure I'm the one who underestimates our ancient forefathers?

Which system needs the smallest amount of features to make predictions?

I have great respect for you but no, I dismiss your other suggestions before you explain to me logical reason to why Sagittarius, a fire sign, divided into snowy season in December?

And then I asked you one more, it's just only 2 questions combined. Do you know that Tropical Zodiac was build upon elements of the season/weather?

Please answers these 2 questions before going to far.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I have great respect for you but no, I dismiss your other suggestions before you explain to me logical reason to why Sagittarius, a fire sign, divided into snowy season in December?

And then I asked you one more, it's just only 2 questions combined. Do you know that Tropical Zodiac was build upon elements of the season/weather?

Please answers these 2 questions before going to far.

Gotta keep warm somehow! :biggrin:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
We've collected more information
in the past 5-10 years
then we have in the entirety of human existence.
we're still way ahead.
and yet
nevertheless
there's some GOOD NEWS!!
Mathematical mystery of ancient Babylonian clay tablet solved :smile:

UNSW Sydney scientists discovered purpose of famous 3700-year old Babylonian clay tablet
revealing it is the world's oldest
and most accurate
trigonometric table
possibly used by ancient mathematical scribes
to calculate how to construct palaces and temples and build canals.

The new research
shows the Babylonians beat the Greeks
to the invention of trigonometry
- the study of triangles
- by more than 1000 years
and reveals
an ancient mathematical sophistication
that had been hidden until now.


Known as Plimpton 322
the small tablet was discovered
in the early 1900s
in what is now southern Iraq

by archaeologist, academic, diplomat and antiquities dealer Edgar Banks,
the person on whom the fictional character Indiana Jones was based.

Plimpton 322 has four columns and 15 rows of numbers written on it
in the cuneiform script of the time using a base 60, or sexagesimal, system.

Plimpton 322 has puzzled mathematicians for more than 70 years
since it was realised it contains a special pattern of numbers called Pythagorean triples
The huge mystery, until now, was its purpose
- why the ancient scribes carried out the complex task
of generating and sorting the numbers on the tablet.
Our research reveals that Plimpton 322 describes the shapes of right-angle triangles
using a novel kind of trigonometry based on ratios, not angles and circles.
It is a fascinating mathematical work that demonstrates undoubted genius.
The tablet not only contains the world's oldest trigonometric table;
it is also the only completely accurate trigonometric table
because of the very different Babylonian approach to arithmetic and geometry.
This means it has great relevance for our modern world.
Babylonian mathematics may have been out of fashion for more than 3000 years
but it has possible practical applications in surveying, computer graphics and education.
This is a rare example of the ancient world teaching us something new
said Dr Daniel Mansfield of the School of Mathematics and Statistics :smile:
in the UNSW Faculty of Science.

The new study by Dr Mansfield and UNSW Associate Professor Norman Wildberger
is published in Historia Mathematica
the official journal of the International Commission on the History of Mathematics.
A trigonometric table allows you to use one known ratio of the sides of a right-angle triangle
to determine the other two unknown ratios
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
We've collected more information in the past 5-10 years
then we have in the entirety of human existence.
not necessarily :smile:

a-brief-history-of-mathematics-2-728.jpg


The Greek astronomer Hipparchus, who lived about 120 years BC
has long been regarded as the father of trigonometry
with his "table of chords" on a circle
considered the oldest trigonometric table.
HOWEVER
Plimpton 322 predates Hipparchus by more than 1000 years :smile:

and Dr Wildberger said:

"It opens up new possibilities
not just for modern mathematics research, but also for mathematics education.


With Plimpton 322 we see a simpler, more accurate trigonometry
that has clear advantages over our own.
A treasure-trove of Babylonian tablets exists
but only a fraction of them have been studied yet.
The mathematical world is only waking up to the fact that this ancient
but very sophisticated mathematical culture has much to teach us
"


Dr Mansfield read about Plimpton 322 by chance
when preparing material for first year mathematics students at UNSW.
He and Dr Wildberger decided to study Babylonian mathematics
and examine the different historical interpretations of the tablet's meaning
after realizing that it had parallels with the rational trigonometry
of Dr Wildberger's book Divine Proportions: Rational Trigonometry to Universal Geometry.

The 15 rows on the tablet describe a sequence of 15 right-angle triangles
which are steadily decreasing in inclination.
The left-hand edge of the tablet is broken
and the UNSW researchers build on previous research
to present new mathematical evidence
that there were originally 6 columns
and that the tablet was meant to be completed with 38 rows.

They also demonstrate how the ancient scribes
who used a base 60 numerical arithmetic similar to our time cloc
rather than the base 10 number system we use
could have generated the numbers on the tablet
using their mathematical techniques.

The UNSW Science mathematicians also provide evidence
that discounts the widely-accepted view that the tablet was simply a teacher's aid
for checking students' solutions of quadratic problems.

"Plimpton 322 was a powerful tool
that could have been used for surveying fields
or making architectural calculations to build palaces, temples
or step pyramids," says Dr Mansfield.

The tablet - thought to have come from the ancient Sumerian city of Larsa
has been dated to between 1822 and 1762 BC.
and is now in the Rare Book and Manuscript Library
at Columbia University in New York.

https://phys.org/news/2017-08-mathem...nian-clay.html
 

Balanced1

Active member
great to be patronised :smile:
All in good fun. I'd rather be cute than arrogant :wink:

We agree that the ancients were great. Much greater than us today. We've become lazy, but this is what naturally occurs as society becomes more advanced and sophisticated. We're comfortable now, with our nice technology.

The thing is, every bit of "ancient" technology that you refer to is only impressive in its context. The fact that the ancient's had this technology is what makes it so impressive. But none of it holds a candle to what we have today.

Even SunConjunctUranus' Egyptian friends don't have space crafts that compare with anything in Nasa's arsenal today.

Hipparchus was obviously a beast. He was probably heavily influenced by Aquarius, putting him ahead of his time. But I can do all of his trigonometry that's stored in his hundreds of columns and rows with one line of code. Btw, I'm not referring to me specifcally, before you call me arrogant.

I'm just hypothetically speaking :biggrin:

I can take the content of all of his gadgets and maths, and store it in one of my folders in my laptop. I can then run machine and/or deep learning algorithms on them, allowing me to rank every feature in order of correlation to each other and relevance to the result I'm looking for. I can do all of this in seconds. I can use AI to learn what Hipparchus spent his entire life trying to figure out.

I can then take this model and apply it to the findings of every other brilliant ancient that you can find.

I can do all of this while playing video games, smoking a blunt, and discussing astrology with friends on the internet.

It's not fair. I know. Even less fair would be if you brought Hipparchus to the present day and taught him how to use a computer. Remember a tool is only as good as its user. You want to see magic happen? Give the ancients a modern day computer and a tutorial.


I have great respect for you but no, I dismiss your other suggestions before you explain to me logical reason to why Sagittarius, a fire sign, divided into snowy season in December?

And then I asked you one more, it's just only 2 questions combined. Do you know that Tropical Zodiac was build upon elements of the season/weather?

Please answers these 2 questions before going to far.
Fine, I'll bite.

The problem is that you're focusing on the star sign of Saggitarius when Tropical zodiac is about the houses. The tropical zodiac represents time and space relative to the Earth, us.

December isn't about the star sign of Sagittarius, it's about the 9th house; The 9th space in time; The final stage of Fall. This has nothing to do with the volatile weather that's influenced by various earthly factors. Btw, I'm EST and haven't seen a single flurry of snow yet. I think I saw snow one time last year.

Fire isn't just about physical heat on the earth. Fire is about expansion, growth, and philosophy, when relative to the 9th space in time. Sagittarius is the hunter, the archer, who uses philosophy to survive in rough times. If you look at the happenings of the world during this time, you will see that the current events also reflect this energy. That's because the characteristics of the seasons (beyond weather), don't change.

The proof is the fact that we live in unison with these spaces in time. We start planting our seeds in March, during the time of Aries, the 1st house. The first fire sign is represented by the increase of daylight. When summer begins in the 4th house, synonymous with Cancer, we're enjoying the fruits of our labor. Fall begins in the 7th house, synonymous with the energy of Libra, where we plan, weigh and balance our options in preparation for the Winter. We say it's because of New Years resolution's, but for some reason, every January 1st, the gyms are packed full, as people are emitting their Capricorn energy; Hard work and discipline in preparation for the warmer months when they can show off their bods.

The stars represent our astronomy. The mistake that Siderealist's make is in assuming that astrological energies and influence come solely from the stars in the skies. The stars in the skies represent the astrological influences, but they don't necessarily emit them.

This is proven by the fact that the tropical zodiac works. If the stars were what is influencing the earth alone, then the tropical zodiac wouldn't be so accurate since it's not exactly aligned. But obviously there are other factors, beyond what we can see, that have major influences. Hence the problem with deciphering the universe's secrets with a diagram.

We're all ambassadors of the stars. We represent the stars on earth in the same way that the houses also represent the stars in space and time.

So the tropical houses are given names to represent each stage of every season in the same way that we are each referred to by our sun sign. When we call person A an Aries and person B a Libra, it doesn't mean that they are the physical constellations in the sky...It means that they represent that energy on earth.

Remember, Sidereal uses the same time and space as the Tropical Zodiac because it must make predictions relative to us on Earth. That's why the houses are the same in a Sidereal chart.

But the rising sign is calculated by the sun rising in the east, reaching the highest part in the heavens (MC), and then setting in the west. All of this is relative to the houses of the Tropical zodiac. So how do Siderealist's even have a Rising sign without considering the Tropical Zodiac? They don't. Sideralists basically borrow the house positions from the Tropical Zodiac and replace the name of the energies with the names of the locations of the stars in the sky.

It all still works. Why? Because astrology is mostly ratio's. If you refer to a large enough range when making prediction's you'll be accurate enough. Hence my original point.

Is there any Sidereal-based method that uses one degree at a time to make predictions? Because the Tropical zodiac has a couple to my knowledge.

Plus what david starling said... "we have to stay warm somehow." :lol:
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
All in good fun. I'd rather be cute than arrogant :wink:

Good but even more greater if you're un biased.


Fine, I'll bite.

The problem is that you're focusing on the star sign of Saggitarius when Tropical zodiac is about the houses. The tropical zodiac represents time and space relative to the Earth, us.

Do you know why there is too much "houses modifications"? From Alcabatius, Regio, Koch, Placidus? It's all happen because there is a vague representations of sign meanwhile Siderealist are comfortably using Constellations blending with House for over 7000 years, no need some "house modifications". The first house counting from first sign/constellations which visible in local sky East Horizon. So, it would be good for you to observe the night sky and see how actually the sky works.

December isn't about the star sign of Sagittarius, it's about the 9th house; The 9th space in time; The final stage of Fall. This has nothing to do with the volatile weather that's influenced by various earthly factors. Btw, I'm EST and haven't seen a single flurry of snow yet. I think I saw snow one time last year.

Fire isn't just about physical heat on the earth. Fire is about expansion, growth, and philosophy, when relative to the 9th space in time. Sagittarius is the hunter, the archer, who uses philosophy to survive in rough times. If you look at the happenings of the world during this time, you will see that the current events also reflect this energy. That's because the characteristics of the seasons (beyond weather), don't change.

Tropical Zodiac is actually build upon weather/season/temperament. Your statements itself contradict with Tropical Zodiac. And so please, stop too many assumptions and opinions, we need citations from legit authors.

And also you probably Warriors bandwagon then? [Lol, just joking].

The proof is the fact that we live in unison with these spaces in time. We start planting our seeds in March, during the time of Aries, the 1st house. The first fire sign is represented by the increase of daylight. When summer begins in the 4th house, synonymous with Cancer, we're enjoying the fruits of our labor. Fall begins in the 7th house, synonymous with the energy of Libra, where we plan, weigh and balance our options in preparation for the Winter. We say it's because of New Years resolution's, but for some reason, every January 1st, the gyms are packed full, as people are emitting their Capricorn energy; Hard work and discipline in preparation for the warmer months when they can show off their bods.

The stars represent our astronomy. The mistake that Siderealist's make is in assuming that astrological energies and influence come solely from the stars in the skies. The stars in the skies represent the astrological influences, but they don't necessarily emit them.

So are going to ignore the axial precession of celestial objects?

Bro, imo if you bring Ptolemy out of his long rest and show him that Sun at Spring Equinoxes has moved to Constellations Pisces not Aries anymore, he will be shaking his head for sure.

This is proven by the fact that the tropical zodiac works. If the stars were what is influencing the earth alone, then the tropical zodiac wouldn't be so accurate since it's not exactly aligned. But obviously there are other factors, beyond what we can see, that have major influences. Hence the problem with deciphering the universe's secrets with a diagram.

We're all ambassadors of the stars. We represent the stars on earth in the same way that the houses also represent the stars in space and time.

So the tropical houses are given names to represent each stage of every season in the same way that we are each referred to by our sun sign. When we call person A an Aries and person B a Libra, it doesn't mean that they are the physical constellations in the sky...It means that they represent that energy on earth.

Remember, Sidereal uses the same time and space as the Tropical Zodiac because it must make predictions relative to us on Earth. That's why the houses are the same in a Sidereal chart.

Of course it works, at least in term of acceptance.

Your previous post admit that sidereal is the original of Zodiac sign. As I stated earlier, a house is originally a sign, it's blending in sidereal horoscope.

What kind of various energy factors you are talking about other then weather/season/temperature/climate in Tropical Zodiac? This is your opinion, not from observations.

But the rising sign is calculated by the sun rising in the east, reaching the highest part in the heavens (MC), and then setting in the west. All of this is relative to the houses of the Tropical zodiac. So how do Siderealist's even have a Rising sign without considering the Tropical Zodiac? They don't. Sideralists basically borrow the house positions from the Tropical Zodiac and replace the name of the energies with the names of the locations of the stars in the sky.

It all still works. Why? Because astrology is mostly ratio's. If you refer to a large enough range when making prediction's you'll be accurate enough. Hence my original point.

Is there any Sidereal-based method that uses one degree at a time to make predictions? Because the Tropical zodiac has a couple to my knowledge.

Nah, bro. It works beacuse of acceptance, not objective obsevations. That's why we [astrology community] are has been trolled by scientist for long time because it's not come from empirical Zodiac.

Plus what david starling said... "we have to stay warm somehow." :lol:

He is a funny old dude, man, but hey at least we're both NBA fans.
You should ask him to read your chart by using his 12/12 pattern theory.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
All in good fun. I'd rather be cute than arrogant :wink:

We agree that the ancients were great. Much greater than us today. We've become lazy, but this is what naturally occurs as society becomes more advanced and sophisticated. We're comfortable now, with our nice technology.

The thing is, every bit of "ancient" technology that you refer to is only impressive in its context. The fact that the ancient's had this technology is what makes it so impressive.

But none of it holds a candle to what we have today.
on the contrary :smile:

Dr Wildberger said: "It opens up new possibilities
not just for modern mathematics research, but also for mathematics education.


With Plimpton 322 we see a simpler,
more accurate trigonometry
that has clear advantages
over our own.


A treasure-trove of Babylonian tablets exists
but only a fraction of them have been studied yet.
The mathematical world is only waking up to the fact that this ancient
but very sophisticated mathematical culture has much to teach us
"



Dr Mansfield read about Plimpton 322 by chance
when preparing material for first year mathematics students at UNSW.
He and Dr Wildberger decided to study Babylonian mathematics
and examine the different historical interpretations of the tablet's meaning
after realizing that it had parallels with the rational trigonometry
of Dr Wildberger's book Divine Proportions: Rational Trigonometry to Universal Geometry.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Even SunConjunctUranus' Egyptian friends don't have space crafts that compare with anything in Nasa's arsenal today.
Hipparchus was obviously a beast.
He was probably heavily influenced by Aquarius, putting him ahead of his time.
using that logic
let's check out Tesla - undeniably ahead of his time :smile:

but that's strange
Tesla was a Sidereal Gemini aka Tropical Cancer
your theory does not compute
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
But I can do all of his trigonometry that's stored in his hundreds of columns and rows with one line of code.
Btw, I'm not referring to me specifcally, before you call me arrogant.
I'm just hypothetically speaking :biggrin:
I can take the content of all of his gadgets and maths, and store it in one of my folders in my laptop. I can then run machine and/or deep learning algorithms on them, allowing me to rank every feature in order of correlation to each other and relevance to the result I'm looking for. I can do all of this in seconds. I can use AI to learn what Hipparchus spent his entire life trying to figure out.
I can then take this model and apply it to the findings of every other brilliant ancient that you can find.


I can do all of this while playing video games, smoking a blunt,
and discussing astrology with friends on the internet.


It's not fair. I know. Even less fair would be if you brought Hipparchus to the present day and taught him how to use a computer. Remember a tool is only as good as its user. You want to see magic happen? Give the ancients a modern day computer and a tutorial.
Fine, I'll bite.
The problem is that you're focusing on the star sign of Saggitarius when Tropical zodiac is about the houses. The tropical zodiac represents time and space relative to the Earth, us.
December isn't about the star sign of Sagittarius, it's about the 9th house; The 9th space in time; The final stage of Fall. This has nothing to do with the volatile weather that's influenced by various earthly factors. Btw, I'm EST and haven't seen a single flurry of snow yet. I think I saw snow one time last year.

Fire isn't just about physical heat on the earth. Fire is about expansion, growth, and philosophy, when relative to the 9th space in time. Sagittarius is the hunter, the archer, who uses philosophy to survive in rough times. If you look at the happenings of the world during this time, you will see that the current events also reflect this energy. That's because the characteristics of the seasons (beyond weather), don't change.

The proof is the fact that we live in unison with these spaces in time.
We start planting our seeds in March, during the time of Aries, the 1st house.
The first fire sign is represented by the increase of daylight.
When summer begins in the 4th house,
synonymous with Cancer, we're enjoying the fruits of our labor.
Fall begins in the 7th house, synonymous with the energy of Libra,
where we plan, weigh and balance our options in preparation for the Winter.

We say it's because of New Years resolution's, but for some reason, every January 1st, the gyms are packed full, as people are emitting their Capricorn energy; Hard work and discipline in preparation for the warmer months when they can show off their bods.
by the way
"....while playing video games, smoking a blunt,
and discussing astrology with friends on the internet...."
did you ever consider that
for Southern Hemisphere TROPICAL ARIES is their Autumn Equinox
and
for Southern Hemisphere TROPICAL LIBRA is their Spring Equinox :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The stars represent our astronomy.
The mistake that Siderealist's make is in assuming that astrological energies and influence come solely from the stars in the skies.

The stars in the skies represent the astrological influences, but they don't necessarily emit them.

On the contrary :smile:

'…..man did not see pictures in the night skies
and then circumscribe the constellations
according to artistic vision.
Instead
man noted that people born when certain groupings of stars were rising
or setting
or directly overhead
exhibited certain characteristics in common

These characteristics seemed animalistic,
bird like,
aquatic
heroic
or ultra humanistic.

Once this correlation was made,
the symbolic mind of man
assigned SHAPE to groupings of stars
for easy reference.

Some shapes were earthly, human
some creative fantasies
but each shape or constellation
represented symbolically
THE OBSERVED EFFECTS OF THAT GROUP OF STARS
when manifested in the life of a person...' Robert Huntz Granite
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
This is proven by the fact that the tropical zodiac works. If the stars were what is influencing the earth alone, then the tropical zodiac wouldn't be so accurate since it's not exactly aligned. But obviously there are other factors, beyond what we can see, that have major influences. Hence the problem with deciphering the universe's secrets with a diagram.

We're all ambassadors of the stars. We represent the stars on earth in the same way that the houses also represent the stars in space and time.

So the tropical houses are given names to represent each stage of every season in the same way that we are each referred to by our sun sign. When we call person A an Aries and person B a Libra, it doesn't mean that they are the physical constellations in the sky...It means that they represent that energy on earth.

Remember, Sidereal uses the same time and space as the Tropical Zodiac because it must make predictions relative to us on Earth. That's why the houses are the same in a Sidereal chart.

But the rising sign is calculated by the sun rising in the east, reaching the highest part in the heavens (MC), and then setting in the west. All of this is relative to the houses of the Tropical zodiac. So how do Siderealist's even have a Rising sign without considering the Tropical Zodiac? They don't. Sideralists basically borrow the house positions from the Tropical Zodiac and replace the name of the energies with the names of the locations of the stars in the sky.

It all still works. Why? Because astrology is mostly ratio's. If you refer to a large enough range when making prediction's you'll be accurate enough. Hence my original point.

Is there any Sidereal-based method that uses one degree at a time to make predictions? Because the Tropical zodiac has a couple to my knowledge.

Check out “HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC”
- an in-depth exploration of the origins of the Babylonian Zodiac and its location in the ecliptic -
which reveals that the division of the ecliptic into tropical astrological signs
was originally a derivation of Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.)

QUOTE

"...dividing the solar year into twelve equal months
commencing with the vernal equinox
in which each solar (tropical) month
is named after one of each of the twelve signs..."
Dr. Robert Powell HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC available on amazon


TROPICAL ZODIAC IS A SEASONAL CALENDAR :smile:


the key point being
that the signs of the original sidereal zodiac
each thirty degrees long
coincide closely with the twelve astronomical constellations of the same name
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related
 

david starling

Well-known member
The specific seasons aren't what tropical is necessarily about. That's why there are so many tropicalists practicing in the Southern Hemisphere where the seasons are reversed. Also, the seasonal calendar can begin in the Fall, like in the case of the Jewish New Year--meaning, tropical Aries can still be considered the "1st Sign", regardless of whether the Sun's ingress occurs in Spring or Fall. :biggrin:
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
The specific seasons aren't what tropical is necessarily about. That's why there are so many tropicalists practicing in the Southern Hemisphere where the seasons are reversed. Also, the seasonal calendar can begin in the Fall, like in the case of the Jewish New Year--meaning, tropical Aries can still be considered the "1st Sign", regardless of whether the Sun's ingress occurs in Spring or Fall. :biggrin:

Well, Carl Jung disagree with you. :biggrin:

QUOTE: "The fact that the astrological signs are associated with certain astronomical constellations has led to much confusion amongst astrologers and non-astrologers. Basically, our zodiac and the signs are no more than a circular measure, a 360-degree scale. Each of the twelve sections of this circular measure has certain characteristics, based on qualities associated with the elements.

Tradition sees the entire universe as consisting of the elements fire, air, water and earth. When we apply this system to personalities, the elements represent certain basic traits and give a certain “temperament”. This varies according to the emphasis of the elements in the horoscope. Any placement of planets or personal points in a sign constitutes an emphasis. (see also “The House System”)

The four elements can be regarded as four basic principles of life. These can be applied to all sorts of things through the principles of similarity and analogy. C.G. Jung has opened the door to a modern understanding of these categories by developing a system of types, in which the elements correspond to four basic functions of the psyche. The emphasis or non-emphasis of the elements in the individual horoscope reveals fundamental aspects of the personality. " END OF QUOTE

https://www.astro.com/info/in_elements_e.htm
 

david starling

Well-known member
There's a pattern to the Elements that corresponds to the Modern scientific version of the creation of the Earth's biosphere: First phase was fiery particles, then solidified ("fixed", in alchemical terminology) into the solid body now known as the "Earth", then the atmosphere formed, and then water vapor condensed into rain, covering the planet in water. Nothing to do with the seasons. :biggrin:
Fire-Earth-Air-Water
 
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david starling

Well-known member
The seasonal quadrants of tropical astrology aren't based on the Elements. They're delineated by Earth's tilt relative the Sun: Solsticial and Equinoctial, 2 of each. A Cardinal-sign begins each quadrant, regardless of Element.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
The reason the images affixed to the constellations make so much sense tropically, is that when they were first recorded in ancient Babylonian form, "heliacal reckoning" was used, above the eastern horizon, in accordance with a Lunar calendar in synch with a Solar tropical calendar. Then, 30 degrees of Precession later (around 2000 years), the constellational imagery was once again in accordance with the tropical calendar, in the correct tropical position directly, without need for heliacal reckoning. That's when tropical astrology as we now know it began developing. So, the imagery was, in effect, tropical to begin with, heliacally, and then tropical again at the time of Hipparchus.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
There are Traditionalists who insist that ALL Traditional astrology was sidereal. Even though there are many who consider themselves Traditional astrologers and use the tropical zodiac. Interesting! :biggrin:
 
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