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Unread 04-18-2016, 05:57 AM
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Vedic Astrology

Thank you to RaRahini for turning me on to vedic astrology.

I have analyzed both modern and traditional on a casual level and am very comfortable with modern.

I would like to open this up to a breath of fresh air in discussing vedic, what makes it unique? What makes it different?

North Indian chart vs. South Indian chart?

"" Ascendent(Lagan) :Aquarius 29.09 // Ascendent Lord :Sat
Moon Sign(Rashi) :Libra // Moon Sign Lord :Ven
Birth Star(Nakshatra) :Swati // Birth Star Lord :Rah
Lucky Gem Diamond Lucky No. : 7
Lucky Day :Friday Lucky Color :White
Sun Sign (As per western system) :Capricorn
Current Vimshottari Dasa :Sat-Ven
You are not a Manglik person
Currently Under SadeSati :Yes
Ascendent Chart(Lagan Kundli) Planet's Position At The Time Of Birth

Planet Sign Degree Lord
Asc Aquarius 29.09 Sat
Sun Sagittarius 21.22 Jup
Mon Libra 15.29 Ven
Mar Libra 19.45 Ven
Mer Sagittarius 06.03 Jup
Jup Capricorn 25.36 Sat
Ven Sagittarius 18.01 Jup
Sat Scorpio 11.59 Mar
Rah(R) Aries 13.01 Mar
Ket(R) Libra 13.01 Ven ""

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Unread 04-18-2016, 08:48 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

Hi Dubyadude!

I am very glad to study other systems as well. This community has helped me widen my horizons ! While i am not an expert in vedic astrology (i would leave that to the likes of Virinchi,mathur dinesh, RishiRahul, muchacho, i think crystalpages and so many others), i have formed my own opinion on its merits.
South Indian and North Indian charts are different representations only for ease of reading. For example, i am comfortable reading the South Indian format. The signs remain constant. Starting from the first house Aries known as Mesha, Second Taurus and so on. For example, if your Ascendant Lagna is Aquarius, it will be shown in the 11th house and you have count from there. In the North Indian Chart, the ascendant is always shown in the Centre diamond shaped house.
I feel the charm of vedic astrology is that it describes the energies of the 27 nakshatras ( stars within the zodiacs) very well. For example, if the naksahatra is Vishaka, which spans across Libra and Scorpio .the energy is 'to branch' (shaka means branch in Sanskrit) or to Shock (the word shock is derived from this Sanskrit word)..so we can get a fair idea of what this person is made of. Similarly , i love the concept of the 4 paths to enlightenment-Dharma Artha Kama Moksha and the planetory energies behind them.
What are your views?
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Unread 04-18-2016, 02:00 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by Dubyadude1986 View Post
Thank you to RaRahini for turning me on to vedic astrology.

I have analyzed both modern and traditional on a casual level and am very comfortable with modern.

I would like to open this up to a breath of fresh air in discussing vedic, what makes it unique? What makes it different?

North Indian chart vs. South Indian chart?
Maybe we start with methodology, techniques and general world view. Here's how I see it:

Modern western is good for a quick overview and it tends to give a rather positive outlook in general because it's very much rooted in the belief of free will and modern western astrologers are usually quite familiar with Law of Attraction and the hermetic laws (which are at the basis of astrology). So there's great flexibility and often great accuracy at the same time. Where modern western is lacking, however, is methodology and techniques. It's rather disorganized and also lacking depth.

Traditional western on the other hand is much better organized and has a lot more techniques to offer which allow for a lot more depth and detail in interpretation. Unfortunately, the very basics that make astrology work, have somehow been lost and no one really seems to be aware of the hermetic laws anymore, especially Law of Attraction. So it's no surprise that traditional western interpretations are lacking a certain amount of flexibility and the approach is more dogmatic and the world view more deterministic.

Vedic astrology seems to me the most profound, most complex and most complete system of astrology. In terms of methodology and techniques, it goes far beyond traditional western astrology. Especially the use of divisional charts open up a whole new level of chart interpretation. Vedic astrology is still deeply rooted in the classical scriptures and so vedic astrologers are usually still very much aware of the basic laws that make astrology work. But the vedic mindset is very different from the western mindset (both modern and traditional). The modern western mindset is very much influenced by new age philosophy, the traditional western mindset is very much influenced by the philosophy of stoicism and the vedic mindset is influenced by a whole set of traditional eastern philosophies (hinduism, buddhism, vedanta).

So in order to understand each system, one has to first understand the philosophy behind it. And depending on which philosophy one prefers, one will naturally gravitate toward one of the three astrological systems.
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Unread 04-19-2016, 06:27 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by RaRohini View Post
Hi Dubyadude!

I am very glad to study other systems as well. This community has helped me widen my horizons ! While i am not an expert in vedic astrology
Your Vedic readings are much more fulfilling than you give yourself credit for, but I appreciate humble.

Quote:
(i would leave that to the likes of Virinchi,mathur dinesh, RishiRahul, muchacho, i think crystalpages and so many others), i have formed my own opinion on its merits.
South Indian and North Indian charts are different representations only for ease of reading. For example, i am comfortable reading the South Indian format. The signs remain constant. Starting from the first house Aries known as Mesha, Second Taurus and so on. For example, if your Ascendant Lagna is Aquarius, it will be shown in the 11th house and you have count from there. In the North Indian Chart, the ascendant is always shown in the Centre diamond shaped house.
^ v As demonstrated here! -
Quote:
I feel the charm of vedic astrology is that it describes the energies of the 27 nakshatras ( stars within the zodiacs) very well. For example, if the naksahatra is Vishaka, which spans across Libra and Scorpio .the energy is 'to branch' (shaka means branch in Sanskrit) or to Shock (the word shock is derived from this Sanskrit word)..so we can get a fair idea of what this person is made of. Similarly , i love the concept of the 4 paths to enlightenment-Dharma Artha Kama Moksha and the planetory energies behind them.
What are your views?
The detail is going to be very helpful. I appreciate the variety in the knowledge available with this. Thanks and I hope this discussion continues!



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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Maybe we start with methodology, techniques and general world view. Here's how I see it:

Modern western is good for a quick overview and it tends to give a rather positive outlook in general because it's very much rooted in the belief of free will and modern western astrologers are usually quite familiar with Law of Attraction and the hermetic laws (which are at the basis of astrology). So there's great flexibility and often great accuracy at the same time. Where modern western is lacking, however, is methodology and techniques. It's rather disorganized and also lacking depth.
Hi muchacho. I understand what you mean about modern astrology being a bit positive, which knuedged me to look at traditional. They go together so well and I think Vedic as a third check is awesome with the detail that looks to be associates with Vedic!

Quote:
Traditional western on the other hand is much better organized and has a lot more techniques to offer which allow for a lot more depth and detail in interpretation. Unfortunately, the very basics that make astrology work, have somehow been lost and no one really seems to be aware of the hermetic laws anymore, especially Law of Attraction. So it's no surprise that traditional western interpretations are lacking a certain amount of flexibility and the approach is more dogmatic and the world view more deterministic.
Yes. Once I was talking to someone about how much I liked the options associated with Traditional astrology. They were quick to point out, like you have, that Traditional is more about technique. I definitely appreciate that!
Quote:
Vedic astrology seems to me the most profound, most complex and most complete system of astrology.

So in order to understand each system, one has to first understand the philosophy behind it. And depending on which philosophy one prefers, one will naturally gravitate toward one of the three astrological systems.
I know it's opinion, but I am still sold by the statement of Vedic possibly being the most complete and curipous of the discussions that may follow! Thanks for tag-teaming the motivation for Vedic muchacho, I'm ready to learn now. Lol.
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Unread 04-19-2016, 10:36 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

Hi Dubya !

The nakshatras (Moon sign based)have various Gunas(roughly translated as behaviours or attributes) . Rajas being the so called A type personality.. Tamas being the kinetic force and Sattva being the neutral or observer..
This table may help you .

http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Naks...tra_guna27.htm

If you try and understand each of them in detail ..you get to the heart of the matter ..so to speak !

Hindu mythology and the Bhagvad Gita are replete with stories of the interplay of such energies. ..(i dont mean to promote Hinduism or anything).. For example..if you want to understand Jyestha Nakshatra..in Scorpio ( Jyestha meaning the eldest one ) there is the story of Karna and Yudhisthira in the Mahabharata who were Jyestha influenced.Dharmaputra or Yudhisthira was a Jyestha(the epitome of Dharma or duty) .Karna who was Jyestha influenced as well, needed his Kavach( protective vest) and Kundalam(earrings) to protect him from negative energies. This could be any protective charm..a Cross for example or the sacred thread. The Scorpio remember is vulnerable to negative energies. So he was safe as long as he had his protective charm. If you look at the life of Jyestha this may play out.An umbrella is another symbol associated with the most respectable members of the society . Karna was the eldest son born of the Sun (Leo.Magha.leader)but he was illegitimate.He had a very heavy influence of Saturn (maybe an Aquarius nakshatra) and was unfortunate throughout his life.He would do anything for his friends , he gave his life for his friend.. Jyesthas have broad shoulders as they have to shoulder many responsibilities in life..there is an interplay of so many energies here, there is a rich symbolism in these stories ..very very interesting.

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Unread 04-19-2016, 10:40 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Traditional western on the other hand is much better organized and has a lot more techniques to offer which allow for a lot more depth and detail in interpretation. Unfortunately, the very basics that make astrology work, have somehow been lost and no one really seems to be aware of the hermetic laws anymore, especially Law of Attraction. So it's no surprise that traditional western interpretations are lacking a certain amount of flexibility and the approach is more dogmatic and the world view more deterministic.
Sorry for this drive-by post Dubya but this is dead wrong. If you think "traditional" astrology is a monolithic entity that is in agreement in world-view, and techniques then you haven't looked at the tradition critically enough.

Don't make proclamations like this if you haven't done the research.

Gone again Dubya.
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Unread 04-19-2016, 11:59 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Sorry for this drive-by post Dubya but this is dead wrong. If you think "traditional" astrology is a monolithic entity that is in agreement in world-view, and techniques then you haven't looked at the tradition critically enough.

Don't make proclamations like this if you haven't done the research.

Gone again Dubya.
Makes sense! Tradition did not change overnight into modern, although folks tend to visualize and describe/categorize these as some sort of well-defined temporal divides!! :-)
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Unread 04-20-2016, 02:42 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Sorry for this drive-by post Dubya but this is dead wrong. If you think "traditional" astrology is a monolithic entity that is in agreement in world-view, and techniques then you haven't looked at the tradition critically enough.

Don't make proclamations like this if you haven't done the research.

Gone again Dubya.
No, I'm not thinking it's a monolithic entity. And in case you've missed it, my point was specifically about the hermetic laws, especially LOA. I haven't found any clear references. What does your 'research' have to say about that?
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Unread 04-20-2016, 04:20 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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No, I'm not thinking it's a monolithic entity. And in case you've missed it, my point was specifically about the hermetic laws, especially LOA. I haven't found any clear references. What does your 'research' have to say about that?
You want references. Here are some.

This is taken from the Liber Hermetis 1 - a footnote on pg. 22:

Quote:
The famous Persian astrologer Abu Ma'shar is an example of Hermetic influence on Arabic Astrology. His works (written in Arabic) represent a curious fusion of Sabian Hermeticism, Persian chronology, Islam, Greek Science and Mesopotamian Astrology...
This is just a little snippet of what this part of the book goes into i.e the various different philosophical/spiritual practices and doctrines that influenced this particular work. Other influences mentioned are hellenistic philosophy, pythagorean numerology, and even Hermes Trismegistos (creator of the hermetic laws), among other influences.

This part might interest you. Liber Hermetis 1 pg 28:

Quote:
The Liber Hermetis, moreover, teaches the use of multiple house systems (cast from the Horoscope, Sun, Moon, or Part of Fortune). Apart from Manilius and Valens, who Gundel claims also claims relied on Hermetic material common to the Liber Hermetis, I know of no other ancient western source for this teaching. Yet it seems to have been exported to India at the latest by about 500 C.E.,for it shows up in Indian Astrology, i.e, in Varahamihira and in Sphuydhuya.
If you are going to "sum up" something it is best to give it a fair representation. And good luck condensing 2000 worth of Astrology in one paragraph - which is by no means only influenced by stoicism (That the "traditional western mindset" is very much influenced by the philosophy of stoicism is overly simplistic and patently false). And quite interesting that a technique you evince actually wasn't incorporated into Indian Astrology until 500 C.E.

There is no rule that a belief in L.O.A is intrinsic to the study and practice of Astrology. Can you give me any clear references that state this?

You're good at Vedic Astrology and it's obviously your preference but don't make your bias cloud your judgement. I re-iterate, do your research before you make proclamations like you did in your previous posts.

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Unread 04-20-2016, 05:56 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Sorry for this drive-by post Dubya but this is dead wrong. If you think "traditional" astrology is a monolithic entity that is in agreement in world-view, and techniques then you haven't looked at the tradition critically enough.

Don't make proclamations like this if you haven't done the research.

Gone again Dubya.
I'm here, it just doesn't send notifications for replies so I have to go back.

Reading now.

The truth is, I have to study more about what a monolithic entity is. I'm catching up now, but education is a late bloomer for me.

Same for hermetic laws. I still have to learn about these. I will come back though for sure and only a few days later.
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Unread 04-20-2016, 06:02 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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You want references. Here are some.

This is taken from the Liber Hermetis 1 - a footnote on pg. 22:

This is just a little snippet of what this part of the book goes into i.e the various different philosophical/spiritual practices and doctrines that influenced this particular work. Other influences mentioned are hellenistic philosophy, pythagorean numerology, and even Hermes Trismegistos (creator of the hermetic laws), among other influences.

This part might interest you. Liber Hermetis 2 pg 28:


If you are going to "sum up" something it is best to give it a fair representation. And good luck condensing 2000 worth of Astrology in one paragraph - which is by no means only influenced by stoicism (That the "traditional western mindset" is very much influenced by the philosophy of stoicism is overly simplistic and patently false). And quite interesting that a technique you evince actually wasn't incorporated into Indian Astrology until 500 C.E.

There is no rule that a belief in L.O.A is intrinsic to the study and practice of Astrology. Can you give me any clear references that state this?

You're good at Vedic Astrology and it's obviously your preference but don't make your bias cloud your judgement. I re-iterate, do your research before you make proclamations like you did in your previous posts.
Those quotes are worthless. Where's LOA mentioned or at least alluded to?

Astrology works with symbolism. Symbolism works with associations. LOA also works that way (aka 'like attracts like'). Which means if you don't understand LOA, you won't be able to correctly work with the astrological symbols. That's why an understanding of LOA is essential to astrology. Apart from that, LOA is the most basic cosmic law there is. So if you are lacking understanding there, it can only get flawed from there on.

About my comment on traditional western astrology and stoicism, I'll stick to that unless you can convince me that somewhere in the traditional body of thought they actually teach you that you are the creator or your own reality. I haven't found anything remotely related to that. Maybe you have, let's see.
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Unread 04-20-2016, 06:21 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Those quotes are worthless. Where's LOA mentioned or at least alluded to?
This is so dishonest. The original post was giving pros and cons of each "system" of astrology and both traditional and modern was given an overly simplistic synopsis that did neither of them any justice. That was the basis of my challenge. Yet you are so hung up on your law of attraction that that is what you decided to focus on. The quotes are only worthless to you because you've already made up your mind.

Quote:
Astrology works with symbolism. Symbolism works with associations. LOA also works that way (aka 'like attracts like'). Which means if you don't understand LOA, you won't be able to correctly work with the astrological symbols. That's why an understanding of LOA is essential to astrology. Apart from that, LOA is the most basic cosmic law there is. So if you are lacking understanding there, it can only get flawed from there on.
Astrology works with symbolism -- you aren't saying I haven't heard. Your claims about LOA being essential to Astrology and "LOA is most basic cosmic law there is" are just wind unless you can back them with something other than your rhetoric. I'm waiting on those references.

Quote:
About my comment on traditional western astrology and stoicism, I'll stick to that unless you can convince me that somewhere in the traditional body of thought they actually teach you that you are the creator or your own reality. I haven't found anything remotely related to that. Maybe you have, let's see.
That's your prerogative. If you think that stoicism is the only philosophical system that rejects the notion that "you are the creator of your own reality" then you don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen deterministic astrologers of the Vedic stripe but naturally you would be blind to them. (Of course you would)
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Unread 04-20-2016, 06:45 PM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by Dubyadude1986 View Post
I'm here, it just doesn't send notifications for replies so I have to go back.

Reading now.

The truth is, I have to study more about what a monolithic entity is. I'm catching up now, but education is a late bloomer for me.

Same for hermetic laws. I still have to learn about these. I will come back though for sure and only a few days later.
When I used the term "Monolithic entity" it was a description of the way some view "traditional astrology" (Which is a catch all term for various types of astrology): a large unified doctrine. This is not the truth of the matter.
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Unread 04-21-2016, 03:40 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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When I used the term "Monolithic entity" it was a description of the way some view "traditional astrology" (Which is a catch all term for various types of astrology): a large unified doctrine. This is not the truth of the matter.
Ok, I understand now. I would be the first to say that I don't know enough to challenge anyone on this. I have read CT's interpretations for a while now and I a real comfortable with yours/them, so I naturally believe you. No offense to anyone I haven't talked to as much.

The basic laws of the ancients. 7.

Laws of Love, manifestation, polarity, evolution, correspondence, harmony, and nature for anyone that might not have known; probably just me. lol

I know that it is polite to make an effort to go through your posts and look for replies, my apologies. I'll do that from now on.
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Unread 04-21-2016, 04:18 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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This is so dishonest. The original post was giving pros and cons of each "system" of astrology and both traditional and modern was given an overly simplistic synopsis that did neither of them any justice. That was the basis of my challenge. Yet you are so hung up on your law of attraction that that is what you decided to focus on. The quotes are only worthless to you because you've already made up your mind.

Astrology works with symbolism -- you aren't saying I haven't heard. Your claims about LOA being essential to Astrology and "LOA is most basic cosmic law there is" are just wind unless you can back them with something other than your rhetoric. I'm waiting on those references.

That's your prerogative. If you think that stoicism is the only philosophical system that rejects the notion that "you are the creator of your own reality" then you don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen deterministic astrologers of the Vedic stripe but naturally you would be blind to them. (Of course you would)
Maybe you should read up on the hermetic laws. LOA is the mechanism that organizes experience, be it physical or non-physical. The hermetic laws build onto that. Before events or things manifest in the physical world, they exist as probabilities in the non-physical realm, which is the backdrop of the physical realm. The physical realm is the realm of time and space and cause and effect. The non-physical realm is beyond time and space and cause and effect and the source of everything. So we could say that the physical world as we know it is just a projection from the non-physical realm. Which means what's physically manifested doesn't actually exist in itself, in it's own right. It's just a reflection of something more profound.

Because the non-physical realm is beyond space and time and cause and effect, this means our normal reasoning and language doesn't work there. The non-physical realm works purely by association. That's where symbols come into play. Symbols also work by association, not logic. Which means they can't be understood with the intellect, they can only be understood on a feeling basis. So in a sense, symbols are pointers and not meant to be taken literally (as the intellect naturally does). They are like the finger that is pointing to the Moon.

Astrology works in the same way. The chart is also just the finger that is pointing to the Moon and its symbols are not meant to be taken literally. The symbols point to a larger and more profound unseen reality and there's a lot of leeway in interpretation.

Since this non-physical realm is the background of the physical, this means your current self has also a larger more profound background self. This cannot be proven intellectually, of course. You have to experience it. But once you've realized your larger self, your actual self, you'll also understand your place and role in creation and your relationship to all that is. This understanding is not an intellectual understanding, it's actually visceral, it's in your cells and blood so to speak. It bypasses the intellect. It's prior to intellectual knowing. Which means it can't be put into words, it can't be conveyed, you have to experience it in order to know it. And the important thing is that this knowledge is not something newly acquired, it's something that's been with your all along. You were born with it. It's your natural state. Children still know it but slowly lose it when the intellect becomes more dominant as they grow up.

What you naturally know and what children still know is the magical nature of the entire universe, how thoughts turn to things, that their actual self is larger than their physical self and that your existence is assured and appreciated, that you are literally the creator of your own reality and your own self. Which means your natural outlook on life is inherently a positive one from this visceral perspective.

Now here is how all of this becomes relevant in characterizing those different astrological traditions (or any teaching): Every tradition has an ontology, a philosophy that explains our place and role in the entire picture of creation, a filter of perception so to speak. This means the more you are aware and familiar with this non-physical background reality and the mechanics of it and your true place in it, the more you understand your active role in creation, the more leeway you will allow in your interpretations and the more positive and self-empowered your general outlook will become.

And this is what I was describing, the modern western approach is more in alignment with the visceral approach and therefore has generally a more positive outlook and is more flexible in interpretations. It's also the reason why this tradition is more psychologically oriented because the non-physical realm is the realm of the psyche. And since the original astrological symbolism is of a psychological nature, the modern tradition is naturally more adept at dealing with those symbols.

The traditional western approach is much less in alignment with the visceral approach, it's more in alignment with the intellectual approach and since the intellectual approach is limited in nature and disconnected from its non-physical background, the outlook is generally more negative and interpretations are less flexible and more literal.

That's why on this forum, trads often accuse mods of giving solely psychological interpretations and mods often accuse trads of painting negative doom and gloom scenarios.

Vedic astrology is a special case, however. It definitely doesn't allow the kind of freedom modern western astrology allows, but it still is very much aware of the non-physical background, it actually places great importance on that realm, because that's what the divisional charts are dealing with.

And now back to stoicism. The stoics believed that man is like a dog that is taken on a walk on a leash. While he can stray away here and there a little to the left and to the right, the general course of the journey is not in his control, however. And that's exactly the kind of thinking that I've found in the traditional western approach. There may be differences in how long this leash is considered to be though. The stoic point of view is more concerned with putting up with reality than actually creating one's own reality. And that's the big divide I see between modern western and traditional western approach.

This more deterministic approach would also apply to the vedic tradition, as you've correctly noted. Although you have to see it in connection with the karma concept. And depending on how everyone understands karma, they will grant the individual more or less freedom. But the main focus in vedic is on the non-physical realm (moksha), on attaining absolute freedom.

That's my 2 cents so far. Take it or leave it.
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Unread 04-21-2016, 04:20 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

Thanks Dubya.

It's not my intention to steer you into any one "camp" of astrological principles. Rather, I'd like that you looked at all of the different systems impartially and deeply so that when you finally decide on your preference, it was well considered and "sound".

I've got nothing against Vedic, in fact after I contacted a user about a Vedic technique they use, they provided me with some Vedic texts to do my own research which I highly appreciated. Similarly, I've given a Vedic user here some a resource after she showed interest in learning the basics of traditional astrology.

At the end of the day, we all are doing astrology and this place provides an environment where people can share, learn, test and at times challenge each other about some issue or another. There will be differences but I think differences should be grounded in something substantial , hence the intrusion.
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Unread 04-21-2016, 05:22 AM
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Re: Vedic Astrology

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Maybe you should read up on the hermetic laws. LOA is the mechanism that organizes experience, be it physical or non-physical. The hermetic laws build onto that. Before events or things manifest in the physical world, they exist as probabilities in the non-physical realm, which is the backdrop of the physical realm. The physical realm is the realm of time and space and cause and effect. The non-physical realm is beyond time and space and cause and effect and the source of everything. So we could say that the physical world as we know it is just a projection from the non-physical realm. Which means what's physically manifested doesn't actually exist in itself, in it's own right. It's just a reflection of something more profound.

Because the non-physical realm is beyond space and time and cause and effect, this means our normal reasoning and language doesn't work there. The non-physical realm works purely by association. That's where symbols come into play. Symbols also work by association, not logic. Which means they can't be understood with the intellect, they can only be understood on a feeling basis. So in a sense, symbols are pointers and not meant to be taken literally (as the intellect naturally does). They are like the finger that is pointing to the Moon.

Astrology works in the same way. The chart is also just the finger that is pointing to the Moon and its symbols are not meant to be taken literally. The symbols point to a larger and more profound unseen reality and there's a lot of leeway in interpretation.

Since this non-physical realm is the background of the physical, this means your current self has also a larger more profound background self. This cannot be proven intellectually, of course. You have to experience it. But once you've realized your larger self, your actual self, you'll also understand your place and role in creation and your relationship to all that is. This understanding is not an intellectual understanding, it's actually visceral, it's in your cells and blood so to speak. It bypasses the intellect. It's prior to intellectual knowing. Which means it can't be put into words, it can't be conveyed, you have to experience it in order to know it. And the important thing is that this knowledge is not something newly acquired, it's something that's been with your all along. You were born with it. It's your natural state. Children still know it but slowly lose it when the intellect becomes more dominant as they grow up.

What you naturally know and what children still know is the magical nature of the entire universe, how thoughts turn to things, that their actual self is larger than their physical self and that your existence is assured and appreciated, that you are literally the creator of your own reality and your own self. Which means your natural outlook on life is inherently a positive one from this visceral perspective.
Thanks for explaining your viewpoint. I'm going to ask some questions so I can understand this better.

If we are the creator of our reality prior to coming on the earth, couldn't it be said that we (higher we) decided the exact circumstances that would allow us to assume a specific body, nationality, gender, social status and natal chart? And if our higher selves have a more expansive vantage point then I'd think they would have good reasons for picking the particular challenges and difficulties that they face on this planet, right?

So why then would an alteration be necessarily a good thing, even if it were to give you temporary reprieve.

If the LOA can't be apprehended save for spiritual gnosis, then how is such a position useful in the life of someone who doesn't take the time to prepare themselves for this gnosis? The majority of people who I come across (hell, this site only has 40+ active posters) have no inkling or use for the intense spirituality that it would take to know such a law viscerally.

And I mean it sounds nice, but in my young life, I've seen highly optimistic and healthy people succumb to terminal influences and other well to do people come under constant misfortunes. If LOA was such an overriding law then why do these people not attract equally positive events that matches who they are and how they treat people? I want to say something about the law of polarity but that would be digressing from the point.

Quote:
Now here is how all of this becomes relevant in characterizing those different astrological traditions (or any teaching): Every tradition has an ontology, a philosophy that explains our place and role in the entire picture of creation, a filter of perception so to speak.
^This

Quote:
This means the more you are aware and familiar with this non-physical background reality and the mechanics of it and your true place in it, the more you understand your active role in creation, the more leeway you will allow in your interpretations and the more positive and self-empowered your general outlook will become.
^Doesn't necessarily lead to this.


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And this is what I was describing, the modern western approach is more in alignment with the visceral approach and therefore has generally a more positive outlook and is more flexible in interpretations.
If this is known through visceral gnosis, how can you tell?

Quote:
It's also the reason why this tradition is more psychologically oriented because the non-physical realm is the realm of the psyche. And since the original astrological symbolism is of a psychological nature, the modern tradition is naturally more adept at dealing with those symbols.
The oldest use of astrology was its use as omens and weather predictions. Hopefully someone more learned can correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
The traditional western approach is much less in alignment with the visceral approach, it's more in alignment with the intellectual approach and since the intellectual approach is limited in nature and disconnected from its non-physical background, the outlook is generally more negative and interpretations are less flexible and more literal.
I urge you to explore the tradition more if you are basing your views on this (tired) stereotype that traditional astrologers are more negative and are disconnected from its non-physical background. All of the most influential astrologers that inform the practice today were, apart from astrologers, physicians, philosophers and holy men and by no means where unaware of non-physicality. And while many of them couch there terms in a blunt and "insensitive" way it was a less pc time than were we find ourselves now, often providing there clients with remedies/ techniques for the troubles they face e.g Culpeper was a physician.

And there are ample ways that traditional astrology deals with psychology (although it doesn't have the depth of focus that modern astrology places on it). Temperament, Lord of Manners, LoG, Almuten figures, Part of Spirit, Part of Fortune, the ascendant, planets on the ascendant, Mercury and Moon and it's aspects etc etc. The psychology of an individual can be ascertained quite competently using more traditional techniques but it is to be admitted that traditional astrology attempts to go beyond a person's psyche in its goals.

Quote:
That's why on this forum, trads often accuse mods of giving solely psychological interpretations and mods often accuse trads of painting negative doom and gloom scenarios.
"Trads" accuse "mods" of giving solely psychological material because there is more to your life than the psychological "you". You also have the social you, the business you, then things in your life -- your partner, family, friends, possessions, careers, etc. If the "mods" sees the astrological chart as you, then the "trads" see it as your entire life.*

* I see the validity in both approaches.

Quote:
Vedic astrology is a special case, however. It definitely doesn't allow the kind of freedom modern western astrology allows, but it still is very much aware of the non-physical background, it actually places great importance on that realm, because that's what the divisional charts are dealing with.
Alright then.

Quote:
And now back to stoicism. The stoics believed that man is like a dog that is taken on a walk on a leash. While he can stray away here and there a little to the left and to the right, the general course of the journey is not in his control, however. And that's exactly the kind of thinking that I've found in the traditional western approach. There may be differences in how long this leash is considered to be though. The stoic point of view is more concerned with putting up with reality than actually creating one's own reality. And that's the big divide I see between modern western and traditional western approach.
That's a fair assessment, but again while this may have been your experience with your exposure to traditional astrology, there are proponents of the "tradition" (It really is very wide and varied in characters and philosophies) that believe in free will , if not by religion (Ficino) then by the actions and the facts of their life (Galileo).


Quote:
This more deterministic approach would also apply to the vedic tradition, as you've correctly noted. Although you have to see it in connection with the karma concept. And depending on how everyone understands karma, they will grant the individual more or less freedom. But the main focus in vedic is on the non-physical realm (moksha), on attaining absolute freedom.
I'll take your word for it (for now)

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That's my 2 cents so far. Take it or leave it.
Well memed my friend

Last edited by conspiracy theorist; 04-21-2016 at 05:26 AM.
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  #18  
Unread 04-26-2016, 03:17 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Vedic Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
If we are the creator of our reality prior to coming on the earth, couldn't it be said that we (higher we) decided the exact circumstances that would allow us to assume a specific body, nationality, gender, social status and natal chart? And if our higher selves have a more expansive vantage point then I'd think they would have good reasons for picking the particular challenges and difficulties that they face on this planet, right?
Right. Contrast is necessary for expansion and so it is actually wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
So why then would an alteration be necessarily a good thing, even if it were to give you temporary reprieve.
Not sure what you are asking here. Alteration of what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
If the LOA can't be apprehended save for spiritual gnosis, then how is such a position useful in the life of someone who doesn't take the time to prepare themselves for this gnosis? The majority of people who I come across (hell, this site only has 40+ active posters) have no inkling or use for the intense spirituality that it would take to know such a law viscerally.
You don't have to get into spirituality. All you have to do is get back in touch with your intuition which means in practical terms learn to discern and trust your impulses and feelings again as you did when you were born. This is no rocket science. All you have to do is retrace your steps. Find the way back to your natural state which is a state of effortless being. That's all. Getting into spirituality is often counterproductive because usually it works with the flawed premise that you are somehow lacking and are incomplete and are here to learn lessons in order to prove your worthiness. And so you miss the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
And I mean it sounds nice, but in my young life, I've seen highly optimistic and healthy people succumb to terminal influences and other well to do people come under constant misfortunes. If LOA was such an overriding law then why do these people not attract equally positive events that matches who they are and how they treat people? I want to say something about the law of polarity but that would be digressing from the point.
To explain the situation of someone you have to know their entire story. Usually the media or movies do a really bad job at this. LOA is best understood if you look at it in terms of vibration or frequency. The law says 'like attracts like' which means whatever is happening in your experience - people, things, events, thoughts and feelings - must be somehow a match to you overall average vibration, i.e. the signal you are sending out. What you are sending out is what is coming back. And people usually don't send out a pure and booming signal, what they are sending out is a scrambled mess because they have beliefs that contradict each other and so they get the good and the bad stuff. The signals are weak and often cancel each other out.

There are two ways how you know how you are actually vibrating, what signal you are sending out: 1) the way you feel and 2) what's manifesting around you. If you are not sure how you really feel, then just look around you at what's manifesting in your life and you can draw your conclusions. If you want to know what's going to manifest, then look at how you really feel and you can draw your conclusions. So there are no accidents or surprises or uncertainties ever.

But what counts is how you really feel which means what you need is brutal self-honesty. Just putting on a happy face sticker on top of a general feeling of depression will give you only access to experiences that match that kind of vibration, i.e. being rejected, not valued, things not working out etc. If there's no actual feeling behind your affirmations then they are worthless.
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