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  #2901  
Unread 06-08-2019, 12:27 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Ptolemy, how'd you assign bound lord at equator though? Other than reversal


Last edited by SunConjunctUranus; 06-08-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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  #2902  
Unread 06-08-2019, 12:49 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Indonesians don't have bound lords
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  #2903  
Unread 06-08-2019, 12:53 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

That's why Alderbaran 15 Taurus is far more superior!
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  #2904  
Unread 06-08-2019, 02:05 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

ds, how about your analysis for game 5? Would be great if you including 12/12.
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  #2905  
Unread 06-08-2019, 02:46 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Doesn't it though? Many a traditional author says the luminaries are domiciled in summery signs, and exalted in vernal signs (Ptolemy, Valens, Bonatti at the top of my head).

Actually it does change their qualities, hot summery months become cold wintry months and vice versa.
It really doesn't. Aquarius qualities as described by authors have little to do with actual temperature, just a mention by Valens that they are cold in nature during that period in which the sign transits them. But then most of the descriptions are unchanged by changing hemispheres.

Ptolomy gives the Cancer and Leo to the Moon and Sun respectively because he places them as the most northern signs, matching them to the Luminaries:

- Cancer and Leo are the most northerly of all the twelve signs; they approach nearer than the other signs to the zenith of this part of the earth, and thereby cause warmth and heat: they are consequently appropriated as houses for the two principal and greater luminaries; Leo for the Sun, as being masculine; and Cancer for the Moon, as being feminine. It has hence resulted, that the semicircle from Leo to Capricorn has been ordained solar, and the semicircle from Aquarius to Cancer, lunar; in order that each planet might occupy one sign in each semicircle, and thus have one of its houses configurated with the Sun and the other with the Moon, conformably to the motions of its own sphere, and the peculiar properties of its nature.

The Sun placed in the northern most placed of the Ecliptic during the period right after the June solstice happens regardless of what hemisphere you are looking from. If during July-August (the Sun's regenecy) whether I'm standing in Buenos Aires (southern hemisphere) or New York City (northern hemisphere), she Sun is still tilted north in the ecliptic while transiting its regency period.

So ... it really changes nothing regarding the Sun rulership. Because the symbolical idea that the Sun is "higher" in the sky is still true from the southern hemisphere, thus making the Sun's rulership of Leo valid. Most of the attributes of the signs are related to its ruler, not the temperature of the period.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-08-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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  #2906  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:01 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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It’s really moreso the reasons they got beat up I’m trying to highlight. Apparently they’ve been arrested by now and police were present, but it’s really something that could happen anywhere for the same reasons
I understand that the reasons are troubling, but we have to understand that when one a city falls into chaos, all manner of crimes are committed, even those that have no logic. In my city, a week ago, some teenagers set a sleeping homeless man on fire. Don't try to understand criminals, you won't. They just are what they are, and should be persecuted and punished.
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  #2907  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:04 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Is that because of illegal immigrants practicing a specific religion?
It more related to the loss of christian values, of respect for your neighbors. Freedom, liberty and respect are the progeny of the christian tradition, which London has replaced for a mild form of atheism that serves no purpose for society.
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  #2908  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:20 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Dirius and Ptolemy, imo you guys should discuss the zodiacal topic in other thread because the content of your discussions are too valuable. I did not think this is a good thread to discuss it. Many of those good post will be buried by lunatic random posts. It would be easier for lurkers to read and study it too. Therefore I advocating to open a new thread.
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  #2909  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:24 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
It more related to the loss of christian values, of respect for your neighbors. Freedom, liberty and respect are the progeny of the christian tradition, which London has replaced for a mild form of atheism that serves no purpose for society.
Freedom, liberty and respect are products of secularism, which had much to do with anti-clericalism/catholicism.
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  #2910  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:26 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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It really doesn't. Aquarius qualities as described by authors have little to do with actual temperature, just a mention by Valens that they are cold in nature during that period in which the sign transits them. But then most of the descriptions are unchanged by changing hemispheres.

Ptolomy gives the Cancer and Leo to the Moon and Sun respectively because he places them as the most northern signs, matching them to the Luminaries:

- Cancer and Leo are the most northerly of all the twelve signs; they approach nearer than the other signs to the zenith of this part of the earth, and thereby cause warmth and heat: they are consequently appropriated as houses for the two principal and greater luminaries; Leo for the Sun, as being masculine; and Cancer for the Moon, as being feminine. It has hence resulted, that the semicircle from Leo to Capricorn has been ordained solar, and the semicircle from Aquarius to Cancer, lunar; in order that each planet might occupy one sign in each semicircle, and thus have one of its houses configurated with the Sun and the other with the Moon, conformably to the motions of its own sphere, and the peculiar properties of its nature.

The Sun placed in the northern most placed of the Ecliptic during the period right after the June solstice happens regardless of what hemisphere you are looking from. If during July-August (the Sun's regenecy) whether I'm standing in Buenos Aires (southern hemisphere) or New York City (northern hemisphere), she Sun is still tilted north in the ecliptic while transiting its regency period.

So ... it really changes nothing regarding the Sun rulership. Because the symbolical idea that the Sun is "higher" in the sky is still true from the southern hemisphere, thus making the Sun's rulership of Leo valid. Most of the attributes of the signs are related to its ruler, not the temperature of the period.
This is just laughable. It is our Capricorn and Aquarius that are nearest to your zenith and causing the greatest amount of warmth and heat. It then follows that they are houses of Sun and Moon for your hemisphere.
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  #2911  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:29 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

He even says it ''of this part of the earth'' (the Northern Hemisphere). Ptolemy, of course, was aware of a Southern Hemisphere.
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  #2912  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:31 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

The houses, the elevations, the triangles (winds), and the terms that are based on them all have to be reversed based on Ptolemy's tabular exposition from Book I.
Here are Valens and Ptolemy's clear logic on exaltations:

''The so‑called exaltations of the planets have the following explanation. Since the sun, when he is in Aries, is making his transition to the northern and higher semicircle, and in Libra is passing into the southern and lower one, they have fittingly assigned Aries to him as his exaltation, since there the length of the day and the heating power of his nature begin to increase, and Libra as his depression for the opposite reasons.

Saturn again, in order to have a position opposite to sun, as also in the matter of their houses, took, contrariwise, Libra as his exaltation and Aries as his depression. For where heat increases there cold diminishes, and where the former diminishes cold on the contrary increases.'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/1B*.html#19

''Venus and Mars “depress” both luminaries because the sun has its exaltation in Aries and its depression in Libra, where it causes the day to become shorter. The moon has its exaltation in Taurus and its depression in Scorpio, where it causes the cosmic disappearance of light.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Now tell me when does the day become shorter in your country?

Last edited by petosiris; 06-08-2019 at 03:35 PM.
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  #2913  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:39 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

There is not a single zodiacal degree that is allotted to a planet by Ptolemy based on seasonal consideration. Numerical considerations are unnatural.
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  #2914  
Unread 06-08-2019, 03:45 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Quote:
So ... it really changes nothing regarding the Sun rulership. Because the symbolical idea that the Sun is "higher" in the sky is still true from the southern hemisphere, thus making the Sun's rulership of Leo valid. Most of the attributes of the signs are related to its ruler, not the temperature of the period.
The Sun is highest in the sky at the ''Cancer tropic'' for the Northern Hemisphere, and at the ''Capricorn tropic'' for the Southern Hemisphere. The idea behind the Sun ruling Leo instead of Cancer is that Leo is masculine and the solid form of the fire (hot and moderately dry) element which predominates the summery signs. And by the way, the Northern Hemisphere does actually get greater amount of heat in Leo because it takes time to cool off which indicates that the ancients were very observant of this.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-08-2019 at 03:48 PM.
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  #2915  
Unread 06-08-2019, 06:57 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Freedom, liberty and respect are products of secularism, which had much to do with anti-clericalism/catholicism.
Secularism means separation of state and church as an entity, not of tradition or values as a society, which were christian in every sense for every single nation that decided to establish a democratic order. I never mentioned catholicism, I said christianity.

When you only have a secular society, you do not have freedom, or respect, or liberty. Check out the atheist states of the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc. Every single nation were christianity has been the predominant religion, you find freedom. Not so much in atheism and other religions.
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  #2916  
Unread 06-08-2019, 06:58 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The Sun is highest in the sky at the ''Cancer tropic'' for the Northern Hemisphere, and at the ''Capricorn tropic'' for the Southern Hemisphere. The idea behind the Sun ruling Leo instead of Cancer is that Leo is masculine and the solid form of the fire (hot and moderately dry) element which predominates the summery signs. And by the way, the Northern Hemisphere does actually get greater amount of heat in Leo because it takes time to cool off which indicates that the ancients were very observant of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The houses, the elevations, the triangles (winds), and the terms that are based on them all have to be reversed based on Ptolemy's tabular exposition from Book I.
....
Scrap what I said then. I had got it wrong. I admit my error in that area. But it still wouldn't explain why normal sign setup works in the southern hemisphere for regular chart reading.

And what do you suggest, sidereal instead? how do you rise above sidereal problems? Do you turn modalities to adjust them or keep them as they are?
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  #2917  
Unread 06-08-2019, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Perfect example of theory versus experience! I, for one, would go with experience.
Thousands of tropical astrologers in the Southern Hemisphere would agree there's no need to use a reverse zodiac--from experience.
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  #2918  
Unread 06-08-2019, 08:48 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Secularism means separation of state and church as an entity, not of tradition or values as a society, which were christian in every sense for every single nation that decided to establish a democratic order. I never mentioned catholicism, I said christianity.

When you only have a secular society, you do not have freedom, or respect, or liberty. Check out the atheist states of the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc. Every single nation were christianity has been the predominant religion, you find freedom. Not so much in atheism and other religions.
Soviet Union and North Korea had/have state atheism thus banning and actively persecuting all religions.

I was referring to the fact that most Westernized countries do not have state religions - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._religions.svg

The Green countries are particular interesting cases for this topic, which is multifaceted. I wouldn't say religion (also which one of the thousands) breeds intolerance, but I don't feel the need to thank the priests for having goodness.
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  #2919  
Unread 06-08-2019, 08:51 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Religion played important role in history, and it probably has many evolutionary benefits. It is not very clever to claim that convergent evolution could not have led us to this point, in fact, I think in many ways it would have been a faster process (just think about the state of science in Hellenistic Antiquity compared to the Christian early-mid Middle Ages).
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  #2920  
Unread 06-08-2019, 09:10 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Scrap what I said then. I had got it wrong. I admit my error in that area.
I appreciate your realization.

Quote:
But it still wouldn't explain why normal sign setup works in the southern hemisphere for regular chart reading.
It is possible that they were wrong, but I don't see why.
It is possible that we were wrong, and that we can do better (unless you are 100% satisfied with your practice of course).

Quote:
And what do you suggest, sidereal instead? how do you rise above sidereal problems? Do you turn modalities to adjust them or keep them as they are?
Actually, during the investigation of this area, I decided to switch back to tropical because of the obviousness of seasonal changes, and because I think they constitute a plausible causal mechanism for astrology. With that in mind, I think it is best for locations above the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn (23+N/S), it is best to use two mighty tropical zodiacs that have their elemental expressions of heat, moisture, dryness and cold so obvious to the senses (much more than the effect of sidereal considerations, and especially because I do not agree with the natural basis for constellations).

For the Equatorial zone, it is more natural to subtract some considerations of the zodiac proportionally the nearer the location is to the Equator, at which point there is should be no consideration of the zodiac, only of planets, aspects and angles, since there is imperceptible increase of daylight to the senses.

This does not seem peculiar to me, it is the same as with the arctic zones, the angles have less of an effect there until they become ineffective at the poles. Instead considerations of power are drawn from the planets and the zodiac exclusively at the north and south poles. There is more angularity from precession than from the houses.
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  #2921  
Unread 06-08-2019, 09:11 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

We couldn't have the first empires and states without the heathen cults. Now we have laws, and the states are our gods.
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  #2922  
Unread 06-08-2019, 09:14 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thousands of tropical astrologers in the Southern Hemisphere would agree there's no need to use a reverse zodiac--from experience.
Have you tried reversing a zodiac in a chart?
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  #2923  
Unread 06-08-2019, 09:20 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
This does not seem peculiar to me, it is the same as with the arctic zones, the angles have less of an effect there until they become ineffective at the poles. Instead considerations of power are drawn from the planets and the zodiac exclusively at the north and south poles. There is more angularity from precession than from the houses.
I do realize that most traditional practices are incompatible with this approach, mainly because they heavily rely on cusps and accidental rulership. However, a large portion of the Tetrabiblos, for example, does not at all need those. It is actually perfectly logical that multiple approaches follow based on the particular local astronomy. Having a single approach that sometimes draws upon a dissonant local astronomy seems to me, illogical.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-08-2019 at 09:24 PM.
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  #2924  
Unread 06-08-2019, 09:27 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Soviet Union and North Korea had/have state atheism thus banning and actively persecuting all religions.

I was referring to the fact that most Westernized countries do not have state religions - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._religions.svg

The Green countries are particular interesting cases for this topic, which is multifaceted. I wouldn't say religion (also which one of the thousands) breeds intolerance, but I don't feel the need to thank the priests for having goodness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Religion played important role in history, and it probably has many evolutionary benefits. It is not very clever to claim that convergent evolution could not have led us to this point, in fact, I think in many ways it would have been a faster process (just think about the state of science in Hellenistic Antiquity compared to the Christian early-mid Middle Ages).
Well the argument for to the "dark ages" slowing down scientific development may have more to do with the fall of the roman empire rather than religion itself, which used to allow the flow of economic goods and ideas throughout the mediterranean. When the empire began to fragment the subsequent kingoms were at first closed and belligerant with each other, their economies slowed down, and the feudal system (which is originally of germanic origin) was put in place. The fact that the later period of the middle ages saw a resurgance in art, science and trade leading into the reinassance, would imply the problem was not religion at all.

As for the marxists countries, the problem comes with the fact that they not only persecuted religion, but tried to establish another type of culture. For example, in communist dictatorship the state encourages children to betray their parents in favour of the state, while in christianity family is upheld as the most important thing (respect your father and mother). We see this in cultural marxism today, when the state keeps trampling over the rights of parents to educate their children the way they would prefer.

In any case, I agree that religion can cause trouble like any other institution when given power, and to be fair, the catholic church was the first to break many of its own rules. However it has more to do with the values that are inherent to its society, which is usually secular themselves. Our definition of justice or freedom is (or used to) be very different than other cultures. We used to value respect, restrainment, kindness, etc. You could say these are mixed with Greek rationality, to create the modern day west.

Londonistan has abandoned all of these. So its not surprising people get attacked on the streets. I believe like you that immigration is in part, a huge factor. But I see it as a symptom of a decaying society, not its cause.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-08-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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  #2925  
Unread 06-08-2019, 09:28 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Every now and then we will hear of some genius coming up with a polar horoscope/house system. I ask, where are the risings, culminations, settings and anti-culminations at the poles?
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