Cruelty ... in a natal chart

chris10

chris10

Well-known member
What in a natal chart can make someone cruel?

I've seen this happening over and over again...

I've seen this in myself;

I would be judgmental (Virgoan ASC :innocent: )

to those who abused their bodies by
drinking,
smoking,
taking drugs,
overeating...
not exercising ...

I've seen people being cruel towards the "flaws" of others.

I've seen parents ostracising drug addicted teenagers.

Someone real close to me was an alcoholic;
he tried hard to quit, I know he did, I could see it...
he never made it... died of cancer.

I used to be very criticising of him till I
realised that he didn't
have the willpower to quit.

Not all people have the willpower
to quit but that does not give me the right to judge...
I know that now
What in a chart can make someone cruel?





Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle
Plato
 
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A

AdrianaCatLover

Member
for cruelty, look at the moon and its aspects. the moon is the mind and emotions. Mars, saturn or the north node aspecting the moon may cause problems. mars aspecting moon causes agrressive behavior. Saturn aspecting the moon makes a mind disturbed. Nearly all serial killers have these aspects.
jeffrey dahmer had moon conjunct mars aspecting saturn
Richard ramirez had north node and mars aspecting his moon
 
chris10

chris10

Well-known member
AdrianaCatLover said:
for cruelty, look at the moon and its aspects. the moon is the mind and emotions. Mars, saturn or the north node aspecting the moon may cause problems. mars aspecting moon causes agrressive behavior. Saturn aspecting the moon makes a mind disturbed. Nearly all serial killers have these aspects.
jeffrey dahmer had moon conjunct mars aspecting saturn
Richard ramirez had north node and mars aspecting his moon
Click to expand...

my moon in scorpio squares my jupiter aquar in 5th, also moon squares venus in leo 11th.
How would you interpret that.
I'll post my chart
 
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d00dle

d00dle

Well-known member
chris10 said:
my moon in scorpio squares my jupiter aquar in 5th, also moon squares venus in leo 11th.
How would you interpret that.
I'll post my chart
Click to expand...

venus and jupiter are benefic planets (considered to be very positive even with hard aspects).
 
Veronica

Veronica

Well-known member
Liz Greene wrote a book called Dark of the Soul : Psychopathology in the Horoscope. In which covers sort of this subject. moon in bad aspect with Saturn could be a cause, also moon square mars can make a person very impulsive. Jeffrey Dahmer had moon in Aries, Ted Bundy has moon-conjunct mars, But you can also see the chart of Josef Mengele and he has a water grand trine and Cancer Rising and Pisces Sun... you could assume from his chart that he is a very creative, empathic, person but he did some terrible heinous thing in the Nazi Concentration Camps. So its complex to assume every person with mars-pluto is cruel or mars-saturn moon-mars can be cruel... or moon-saturn too cold.
 
actio

actio

Well-known member
I've noticed callous, belligerent, I-want-what-I-want, ego-focused character in people with Saturn square or opposite to Sun and/or Mars. Not cruel, but certainly hardened, the kind of people who would stand by and jeer if somebody is being hurt or bullied and laugh at jokes involving cruelty.

There is one person I know with Scorpio stellium, Sun in Pisces, Moon-Mars-Saturn-Pluto all in Scorpio, the first three planets at close degrees to each other. He has deficient conscience and says that he fantasizes about sadistic sex. Not to say it's related but could be.
 
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chei star

chei star

Well-known member
My father has struggled with alcoholism for most of his life.

He has a stellium in Sagittarius involving his Sun, Mercury, Mars and Venus which are all conjunct his Ascendant. Every single one of those planets are opposing his Gemini Moon. There are NO soft aspects between his inner planets, they are all oppositions and conjunctions. His Neptune only has two major aspects, one of which is Neptune square Jupiter.

He has had a very difficult life to say the least. The better things get for him, the worse he tends to fall. Alcoholism has definitely dominated his entire life and is reflected in that hard Neptune/Jupiter aspect.
 
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Q

Queen of Wands

Active member
I would definitely say that Saturn aspects, or a particularly strong Saturn, can be a source for that particular style of "cruelty". What you describe sounds like the Saturnian need for self-control and honesty rather than just plain wanting to hurt someone. Where is Saturn in your chart, Chris10 ?
 
chris10

chris10

Well-known member
Queen of Wands said:
I would definitely say that Saturn aspects, or a particularly strong Saturn, can be a source for that particular style of "cruelty". What you describe sounds like the Saturnian need for self-control and honesty rather than just plain wanting to hurt someone.

Hurt someone? No way!!! Let alone deliberately.

Where is Saturn in your chart, Chris10 ?
Click to expand...


Right on the MC squaring the pluto - ASC conjuction :sad:
Might Lilith on the IC have anything to do with it?

Here's the chart



 
Vista

Vista

Well-known member
In your case, besides the Pluto conjunct your ASC, you have Mars opposing Uranus and squaring your Sun forming a T-square. This along with Pluto conjunct the ASC are the likely culprits. Also, you have a Scorpio Moon making you very intense all around.

As for cruelty, as Veronica mentioned it's difficult to see how it would manifest. Mars in hard aspect to Uranus or Pluto would be difficult and typically gives one an explosive temper so I would be apt to expect this type of aspect. Moon square Mars definitely makes one very volatile and temperamental. Many athletes have these aspects so there is a good way to work with it. Moon to Saturn just seems like someone prone to depression, never thought of it as cruel but they do have the ability to shut down and become very cold. Sun square Pluto can be bullies as can Mercury square Pluto. Moon in hard aspect to Uranus can point to mental disorders in particular bipolar. Moon square Pluto, emotional manipulation. All hard aspects from Moon to Saturn, Uranus, and Pluto point to issues with the mother.

Edit: I just noticed the orb for the Mars opposite Uranus is too wide to be in aspect. Sun-Mars-Uranus still form a T square but Mars doesn't aspect Uranus.

chris10 said:
Right on the MC squaring the pluto - ASC conjuction :sad:
Might Lilith on the IC have anything to do with it?

Here's the chart



Click to expand...
 
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Q

Queen of Wands

Active member
Well, it would be difficult to find a stronger position for Saturn than on the MC. Maybe if it were also in Capricorn. I imagine Pluto's involvement can only serve to bring out the crueller side of the judgment, since Pluto tends to operate on the "No pain no gain" principle. Your criticisms, however true, often go too far and it seems like this has happened enough times that you're now scared of it.

Someone else will have to jump in with the Lilith/IC placement. (sorry, I haven't been doing this for very long and don't trust myself with anything other than the standard planets)

If I may presume to offer some advice, as another strongly Saturnian person : it looks like, going on your original post and your signatures in other threads, that you are trying very hard to repress your judgmental nature. I do not think it's healthy to repress any part of ourselves. Saturn is a judgmental planet, and if it bothers you to have that trait, then the solution is to find a positive outlet for it. Repressing it, and I speak from experience, will only cause you to build a deep bank of seething disdain that will erupt at the worst possible moments and in the least constructive ways (like, say, needless cruelty to a loved one).

Matt. 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”
Click to expand...

Why so scared of judgment ? If done constructively, it can be a great tool for self-improvement.

John 8:7 “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Click to expand...

A pretty sentiment, but if applied literally, then there would be no one to enforce order in our society. Pedophiles would abduct children and no one would arrest them because they stole a candy once when they were little.
 
chris10

chris10

Well-known member
Queen of Wands said:
Well, it would be difficult to find a stronger position for Saturn than on the MC. Maybe if it were also in Capricorn. I imagine Pluto's involvement can only serve to bring out the crueller side of the judgment, since Pluto tends to operate on the "No pain no gain" principle. Your criticisms, however true, often go too far and it seems like this has happened enough times that you're now scared of it.

"No pain no gain" I was brought up with that one too... lol
I was raised by Saturnian, Jupiterian mother and grandparents who were down to earth but also very philosophical individuals.

Someone else will have to jump in with the Lilith/IC placement. (sorry, I haven't been doing this for very long and don't trust myself with anything other than the standard planets)

If I may presume to offer some advice, as another strongly Saturnian person : it looks like, going on your original post and your signatures in other threads, that you are trying very hard to repress your judgmental nature. I do not think it's healthy to repress any part of ourselves. Saturn is a judgmental planet, and if it bothers you to have that trait, then the solution is to find a positive outlet for it. Repressing it, and I speak from experience, will only cause you to build a deep bank of seething disdain that will erupt at the worst possible moments and in the least constructive ways (like, say, needless cruelty to a loved one).
It seems everyone in my life (family, friends) are strongly Saturnian.
They are hard workers and serious people.
The only person I’ve been judgmental with has been a member of my family who didn’t live up to my expectations of being “strong”.
There’s another member of this forum who has the same birth date as my family member and both have struggled with similar issues.
I started this thread as a result of my thinking what made me harsh and cruel to that particular family member.



Why so scared of judgment ? If done constructively, it can be a great tool for self-improvement.

I’m not scared of judgment, I crave judgement, I’m not kidding…you are Saturnian, you probably know.
I posted that because there are people all around us who believe they are Gods.
I think a little humility has never hurt anyone.
If we look around us, we will see that all evil originates from people who think they can play God, they try to hurt others either with their actions or words.
People around me (and I bet around you too) are suffering because of this kind. I guess it’s a complex thing. I avoid these people. For me, they don’t even exist.
Since you mentioned the quotes, I was raised by my family repeating these:“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle”
Plato "No pain no gain" “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” ( … and a few more but they are of no relevance here)
Let me analyse a bit.
:“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle”
Plato
Each one of us is human, we have weaknesses, and we should be sympathetic whenever we can (my opinion). Some may think that this is to be ridiculed…I really don’t care.
"No pain no gain" very Saturnian indeed.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
These two talk to me of Humility, Forgiveness and Compassion, plain and simple.



A pretty sentiment, but if applied literally, then there would be no one to enforce order in our society. Pedophiles would abduct children and no one would arrest them because they stole a candy once when they were little.

It can’t/ shouldn’t be applied literally.
John was talking about humility and forgiveness.
We have forgotten about those…it’s sad.
Click to expand...
 
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astro11

astro11

Well-known member
Mars-Pluto: Potential to be ruthless in desire for revenge, power hungry
Mars-Uranus: Potential for sudden explosions of temper and aggression, hair trigger temper
Venus-Mars: Especially for sexual violence
 
chris10

chris10

Well-known member
astro11 said:
Mars-Pluto: Potential to be ruthless in desire for revenge, power hungry
Mars-Uranus: Potential for sudden explosions of temper and aggression, hair trigger temper
Venus-Mars: Especially for sexual violence
Click to expand...


I know someone who abused his child; he has mars square pluto. The mother broke down, reported the fact, now he's in jail.
Mars-uranus opposition,
I have a wide opposition mars aries in 7th / uranus libra in 1st.
When I was younger, I would get angrier much easier ...
I am into extreme sports though, is it the mars-uranus?
A friend of mine has a mars-uranus square, he can be soo honest that it is cruel. But...I just love him and his honesty.
Venus-mars ?? cruel??
 
astro11

astro11

Well-known member
I say Venus-Mars has potential to be cruel sexually because its the combination of love, sex and aggression. Also, these people can be too rough with their partner's feelings, saying or doing things they know can hurt them. On the flip side, they can think that love has to hurt, not realizing that real love feels good, not painful.

Many notorious serial rapists have this aspect, showing its tendencies towards sadism.
 
chris10

chris10

Well-known member
astro11 said:
I say Venus-Mars has potential to be cruel sexually because its the combination of love, sex and aggression. Also, these people can be too rough with their partner's feelings, saying or doing things they know can hurt them. On the flip side, they can think that love has to hurt, not realizing that real love feels good, not painful.

Many notorious serial rapists have this aspect, showing its tendencies towards sadism.
Click to expand...
Could you please post some names and charts so that I can study them?
I'd really be grateful. Looking at the charts of people and studying their life is the best way to learn astro. :smile:
 
astro11

astro11

Well-known member
Hope the following list helps :smile:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Belliard,_Daniel

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Leahy,_Paul

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Strack,_Richard_Ludwig

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hatcher,_Charles_Ray

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Connors,_David_B.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Garcia,_Alain (out of sign square)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo (no birth time but birthday given)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka (no birth time but birthday given)
 
Vista

Vista

Well-known member
astro11 said:
Hope the following list helps :smile:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Belliard,_Daniel

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Leahy,_Paul

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Strack,_Richard_Ludwig

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hatcher,_Charles_Ray

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Connors,_David_B.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Garcia,_Alain (out of sign square)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo (no birth time but birthday given)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka (no birth time but birthday given)
Click to expand...

Very interesting!! I think the common domonimator based on their natal charts, they all had abuse in their childhoods. Of course many people suffered abuse in childhood and this would obviously be the worse case scenario for an outcome.
 
Sentient0ne

Sentient0ne

Premium Member
A very interesting thread. One online definition of cruelty is:

cruelty [ˈkruːəltɪ]n pl -ties1. deliberate infliction of pain or suffering
2. the quality or characteristic of being cruel
3. a cruel action
4. (Law) Law conduct that causes danger to life or limb or a threat to bodily or mental health

Cruelty is acting in a deliberate fashion in a non-consensual manner, inflicting pain or suffering upon another.

This can be done verbally or physically. It affects both individuals. The victim will have scars that may alter them and affect them for life. The perpetrator will suffer from guilt or a deep and painful 'something' that they can't quite remember.

Either way, there is a flaw in how people relate. It may be difficult to define in a chart. One has to view the chart in relation to the environment of the individual. There are defiinte chart indicators that can point to cruelty, but if an individual has those indicators, yet has never touched the negative energy of it, will it actually manifest in their life?

We hear about cruetly/abuse as being common amongst those who's abuser was abused. If we see someone's chart with a Pluto/Mars hard aspect, we might assume a powerful indicator of cruelty/abuse. I can see that energy assuming many avenues, depending on other indicators/transits etc, AND what the prevalent pressures in life have brought those individuals. That energy can be very negative - http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.com/2011/09/astrology-of-child-abuse-and-murder.html - or very positive -
Examples of people with Mars-Pluto aspects:
- Hillary Clinton is one of those persons who has Mars afflicted with Pluto and Moon. These are indications for ambition. She also has the ascendant on the midpoint/ - Sportsman have Mars-Pluto aspects often, like Willem van Hanegem and Ruud Gullit (both sextile), Rinus Michels (opposition) and famous international Johan Cruijff (very narrow Mars trine Pluto): the drive to win. (from http://astropost.blogspot.com/2008/04/mars-in-aspect-with-pluto.html).

So it comes down to the fact that the energy is there. If you nurture it a certain way, it may manifest that way. Nothing is certain, but there tends to be correlation to this in many articles I've read.

I can be cruel. I know it. I've been verbally cruel, and physically. In my defense, much of it comes with a consensuality. I respect the website and it's guidelines, so won't share more than that. Send me a message if you wish to know more. But mine comes from a Scorpio moon, unaspected except for a wide opposition to my Sun in Taurus. That Scorpio energy is harsh. I have Saturn in Scorpio as well. A harsh task master at best. Both oppose my Sun, the fundamental me. I've said things and done things that are cruel. I'm controlling and have been manipulative. It's part of who I am. I've found an outlet that allows me to express that without hurting anyone.

It's going to happen. We are imperfect in our search for perfection. It's how we handle that, whether we are the perpetrator or victim. I've been on both ends of it. Not anywhere near as severe as many people I know.

I saw one of the links provided on a previous response. The two names at the bottom were very familiiar to me. Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. I was living in Canada at the time this all took place. They weren't even an hour away from where I lived at the time.

Again, a caution in finding specific indicators that point to 'cruelty' yet could be a blessing as well.

:sun:/:taurus: :moon:/:scorpio:
 
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