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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 03-30-2009, 07:41 PM
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Moon-IC degree question

I have a question about my moon on the IC. It is officially 5 degrees 22 away from the IC (in the 3rd house). With this placement, is it still possible that I can identify more with the 4th house than the 3rd, even if it's over 5 degrees from the IC? I know most astrologers obviously give a mark of within 5 degrees from the next house cusp for a planet to be more strongly influenced by the next house (I know this is one of those controversial points and some consider only 2 or 3 degrees). But I've never read or heard of over 5 degrees to be more influenced by the next house. I think Gauquelin went with the 5 degrees as well, didn't he?

Now there's some things I can identify with from both houses and some that don't fit at all from both houses, so I guess there's definitely a little mixture from both houses there, but overall I'd say I can identify stronger and with more things from the 4th house. For instance, I've always had a very strong emotional bond with my mother and I was quite a momma's boy as a child and very emotionally and "out-of-home-supportingly" dependent on her, and she was very caring, protective, supportive and loving, so that alone would indicate a rather strong 4th house moon influence I'd say and would fit better than a clear 3rd house moon placement. On the other hand my oldest sister sometimes acted as a helping figure for me as well in a couple of out of home issues. So that would show the 3rd house placement there I guess. But the mother influence was definitely stronger and longer lasting.

Now my birth time is said to be exact, but I wonder about the possibility of it being off by 1 or 2 minutes, because if it's 2 minutes earlier this would put my moon just within the 5 degree mark. Or is it possible to feel the 4th house more strongly even with a 5+ degree placement? Or does it really make a difference if it's a little under or over 5 degrees?

I've tried to make a rectification with solar arcs with the easiest way I could find thanks to a link on here (I don't remember where or by whom) to some youtube guide by a female astrologer, and I could come up with one event that I could use quite well for this, as we moved to a new home and city exactly 23 days before my 5th birthday. So using that method with the solar arcs where 1 degree corresponds with 1 year, this would put my moon just slightly under that 5 degree mark from the IC. However, to make really sure there seems to need to be more than just one event tested and unfortunately I couldn't find any other major events in my life that I could test, as I'm not married, don't have any children and only 2 older sisters. And we also moved to a new city when I was about 3 months old and I couldn't find any correlation with this in my chart, so I'm not sure how exact such a rectification is or can be. And if it really can be accurately judged and calculated down to the exactness of just a couple of weeks like in my case with the second home movement.

So, to make a long story short, is it possible to have a stronger 4th house identification even with a 5+ degree moon placement from the IC? Or does it require for this to have that moon placement definitely WITHIN that 5 degree mark, and thus would indicate my said to be exact birth time to be off by a couple of minutes? Is that 5 degree mark such a critical point that it can make a big difference whether it's a little below or over 5 degrees? However, some astrologers say if it's within 5 degrees it is to be interpreted even entirely in the next house, which in my case would not be 100% correct either, as there definitely are some 3rd house influences too. So that leaves me a little confused now in the end.

I also have to say though, that I'm not entirely able to distinguish between the forces and pulls of my 12th house sun and my IC-moon. Home, time for myself and withdrawal from the outer world has always been big for me in my life and these two forces probably mix together somewhat and it doesn't help having Cancer on the 12th house cusp in this case, too, I guess. But just alone from the big mother influence I'd say there must definitely be a strong 4th house influence involved, too, which brought me into these degree questions.

So any of the more experienced in this matter can help me out here with their opinions and experiences?

(Man... I just can't seem to able to cut it short these days....) Sorry about that.

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Unread 03-30-2009, 08:00 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

I was fortunate enough to see Dane Rudyhar speak many years ago in a Berkeley bookstore. One of the main things he spoke about, in his lecture on Sabian Symbols, was that there is essentially NO moment of birth. He contends that birth is a process, and there are key times from conception to the beginning of labor pains, to the crowning, to the first breath, to the cutting of the chord. Being a young astrologer, I left the lecture being quite confused about how to choose the moment of birth.
The point of that story in terms of your chart is that your moon is in the 'process' of moving from the 3rd to the 4th during your birth. And that is what Rudyhar means when he declares his vision as being "humanistic' astrology. It is a living ,breathing, changing chart, so what you described about being both a 3rd and 4th house moon is correct -imo.
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Unread 03-31-2009, 12:16 AM
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

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Originally Posted by katydid
I was fortunate enough to see Dane Rudyhar speak many years ago in a Berkeley bookstore. One of the main things he spoke about, in his lecture on Sabian Symbols, was that there is essentially NO moment of birth. He contends that birth is a process, and there are key times from conception to the beginning of labor pains, to the crowning, to the first breath, to the cutting of the chord. Being a young astrologer, I left the lecture being quite confused about how to choose the moment of birth.
The point of that story in terms of your chart is that your moon is in the 'process' of moving from the 3rd to the 4th during your birth. And that is what Rudyhar means when he declares his vision as being "humanistic' astrology. It is a living ,breathing, changing chart, so what you described about being both a 3rd and 4th house moon is correct -imo.
Thanks for the reply katydid. So going with this approach I guess it would mean that I shouldn't be giving too much thought and looking too much into these little numbers and go with a more "what you feel is real" approach. That definitely sounds interesting and I'll keep that in mind, but I'd nevertheless like to hear and learn also about people's experiences and opinions of over/under 5 degree planets, maybe in their own charts?
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Unread 03-31-2009, 01:30 AM
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

I'd like to point out this question from my long initial post. With a home movement 23 days before my 5th birthday, how strong in exactness is this an indicator of having the natal moon within 5 degrees of the IC? Even though the movement was just before my 5th birthday, is it still possible to have the moon at over 5 degrees from the IC? Or is the solar arcs rectification method so exact that a movement must be determined to have taken place at when a planet is only in absolute exactness of 000 to the IC? Or is there some kind of "orb" of allowance accepted or possible here, or in any other major events in a chart like a divorce or a woman giving birth etc.? But should my first home movement at when I was about 3 months old not also be recognizable in the chart? (as I'm an amateur maybe I just didn't see it though)
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Unread 04-04-2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimzo23
I'd like to point out this question from my long initial post. With a home movement 23 days before my 5th birthday, how strong in exactness is this an indicator of having the natal moon within 5 degrees of the IC? Even though the movement was just before my 5th birthday, is it still possible to have the moon at over 5 degrees from the IC? Or is the solar arcs rectification method so exact that a movement must be determined to have taken place at when a planet is only in absolute exactness of 000 to the IC? Or is there some kind of "orb" of allowance accepted or possible here, or in any other major events in a chart like a divorce or a woman giving birth etc.? But should my first home movement at when I was about 3 months old not also be recognizable in the chart? (as I'm an amateur maybe I just didn't see it though)
It's kinda hard to comment without seeing the chart, could you post?
It's quite possible the time could be out by couple of minutes, obviously again it's when the cord was cut, when the midwife looked at the clock, was the clock showing fast or slow..... etc etc

I'm quite a fan of solar arcs and using them for rectification and of course you can move, Asc, MC, IC Desc onto planets and even subtract degrees from one another, for eg: I have Pluto 28' Leo and Uranus 3' Leo at age 25 I have the most explosive almost violent episode with my then husband which more or less ended the marriage. I have got a 11page word doc if you want, so PM me cos would need to email....

Also transits are good for rectification, but then again it depends which 'house system' you use cos I use Equal house system which has the same Asc degree on each cusp and adds flavour to 4th house matters, although IC is always more important and all this means is that some planets move from one house to another therefore affecting the meanings of planets in different houses..
It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'

Hope this helps
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Unread 04-04-2009, 06:27 PM
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
It's kinda hard to comment without seeing the chart, could you post?
It's quite possible the time could be out by couple of minutes, obviously again it's when the cord was cut, when the midwife looked at the clock, was the clock showing fast or slow..... etc etc

I'm quite a fan of solar arcs and using them for rectification and of course you can move, Asc, MC, IC Desc onto planets and even subtract degrees from one another, for eg: I have Pluto 28' Leo and Uranus 3' Leo at age 25 I have the most explosive almost violent episode with my then husband which more or less ended the marriage. I have got a 11page word doc if you want, so PM me cos would need to email....

Also transits are good for rectification, but then again it depends which 'house system' you use cos I use Equal house system which has the same Asc degree on each cusp and adds flavour to 4th house matters, although IC is always more important and all this means is that some planets move from one house to another therefore affecting the meanings of planets in different houses..
It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'

Hope this helps
Thanks for your help, Astrologer50. I've added my chart if you'd like to take a look at it. Though I don't think there is much more to be seen in this regard. Yes I took a look at equal house system already, but the moon moves away from 4th house too much, though the degrees of AC and MC stay the same I guess, so I don't think this would make much difference regarding rectification (at least solar arcs rectification I assume). I didn't try rectification with transits. I guess it's a little more difficult and I tried it with the easiest guide I could find with the solar arcs. Is that 11 page guide for the more advanced, or is it possible to follow through for the less knowledgable, too?
Of course it's not as big an issue and quite as important as for someone trying to find out or make sure what his rising sign is if it's on a cusp, and if I don't find out I'll just settle with thinking "about 5 degrees" from the IC and being influenced by both houses. (Though it's always nice to have exactness in astrology and be as sure as possible). As the official birth time is 6:10 I assume it is quite possible that they used to round the times by 5-minute intervals and that it could indeed be off by 1 or 2 minutes (of course it is also possible that it was just exact that time too I guess). But as like you said, even with a time that looks exact to the minute like 6:08 or 6:09, it also depends on what they took as the exact birth time (first breath, cord cutting etc.). So I guess most people can't be 100% sure about the exactness of their birth times to the minute.

Last edited by gimzo23; 05-04-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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Unread 04-04-2009, 08:08 PM
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

Hi,

Re: Solar arcs

We don't just use SA for rectification they are just as useful as secondary progressions...

Now SA Asc onto saturn approx age 5 would have caused some structure, like going to school, more authority figures around you, poss father being distance cool etc. Saturn in 1st natally can really knock your confidence and/or make you quite shy...

SA Asc onto Mercury approx age 19then, what happened? did you go to Uni? Did you become lots more communactive? more bolder (Leo) enjoy the sound of your own voice a little perhaps? become rather direct and to the point (1st house)
Same time SA moon conj IC =house move, age 5

Age 10.. SA IC conj Uranus =distruptions in the home and family matters, someone perhaps wanting bit more freedom and independence?

Age 16.. SA Pluto conj IC. Did anyone disappear, pass away, become overly controlling, demanding, maniplulative? (3rd house with blackmail, communications )

Age 7.5 SA MC conj Chiron. was there some kind of wound (opp Uranus 4th) connected to family?

SA Sun conj Asc just before age 13. Did you become more able to push yourself forward, to 'shine' in your own light, become more self assured, assertive, confident (like Aries/1st house) Leo wanting to be centre of attention perhaps?

You need to address most if not all of the above to arrive at good conclusion, but remember T Mercury is 'very' noticeable when crossing the Asc ie; letters communications, lots running about. Even T mars conj Asc plenty energy, activites etc.
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Unread 04-05-2009, 12:31 AM
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Re: Moon-IC degree question

Thank you very much, Astrologer 50, for having taken a look into this. As we're dealing with just a potential couple of minutes of birth time discrepancy, wouldn't these points also apply if the birth time was exact? Or wouldn't I need exact dates to these events? Anyway, I'll try challenging my memory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
Hi,

Re: Solar arcs

We don't just use SA for rectification they are just as useful as secondary progressions...

Now SA Asc onto saturn approx age 5 would have caused some structure, like going to school, more authority figures around you, poss father being distance cool etc. Saturn in 1st natally can really knock your confidence and/or make you quite shy...
I began kindergarten at age 5. As I was born on July 23 and school and kindergarten here usually starts new after the summer holidays, this must have been approx. in the middle of August when I was 5 years and about 3 weeks old. I guess this was a rather big thing for me, just like the start of school, as I was a rather shy and a more or less dependent kid when it came to something new like this.

Quote:
SA Asc onto Mercury approx age 19then, what happened? did you go to Uni? Did you become lots more communactive? more bolder (Leo) enjoy the sound of your own voice a little perhaps? become rather direct and to the point (1st house)
Same time SA moon conj IC =house move, age 5
Nothing like that at age 19, no. Rather the opposite as age 17 until about 21 or so was a very crisis-ridden time for me full of self-doubts, low self-esteem, apprenticeship-problems, broken heart issues and depressions. I started recording myself singing to Nirvana and Neil Young songs though, lol. But that must have been sometime around 20 and 21, and I did it mostly for myself only and I couldn't do it if someone listened or watched in the background. But could that be Mercury there maybe? Well it's a communication too in a way I guess, even if I did it just for myself. I also started writing some poems at around 20-22 or so. But if that was Mercury wouldn't that put it a little too much back birthtime-wise, as this would be a 1-3 year difference here?

Yes to the home movement at very close to 5 years old.

Quote:
Age 10.. SA IC conj Uranus =distruptions in the home and family matters, someone perhaps wanting bit more freedom and independence?
Hard to tell. No real disruptions as far as I remember. My mother was a homekeeper/homemaker and mother from 1974-1995, just interrupted by a 1--month educational course and job sometime in 1988 when I was either 10 or 11 years old. Maybe that would stand for the Uranus here?

Quote:
Age 16.. SA Pluto conj IC. Did anyone disappear, pass away, become overly controlling, demanding, maniplulative? (3rd house with blackmail, communications )
There's something that might fit with the controlling, demanding or dictating aspects about something specific and over a certain time (it didn't involve me personally though). I think it might fit with age 15-16 yes. It probably started even a little earlier already, but I guess this could also fit overall with the age there.

Quote:
Age 7.5 SA MC conj Chiron. was there some kind of wound (opp Uranus 4th) connected to family?
Not that I remember. A close friend of my parents and especially of my father, died in 1986 when I was 8 or 9 years old. It mainly affected him and maybe my mother though, not the whole family. So that probably doesn't apply here, I'm not sure.

Quote:
SA Sun conj Asc just before age 13. Did you become more able to push yourself forward, to 'shine' in your own light, become more self assured, assertive, confident (like Aries/1st house) Leo wanting to be centre of attention perhaps?
I can't make out something specific or a certain time at that age frame, no. And I think I would remember this quite well, as my Leo shines through rather few and far between.

So overall, some fit quite well, while others seem to be off by a year or two. It's hard to tell I guess. And I'm not sure if all these examples of mine are applicable.
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