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  #526  
Unread 08-11-2019, 02:37 AM
ynnest ynnest is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I'm not sure how to explain. I think maybe in a concept as large and universal as fate, that we can't simply view it in such personal humanistic terms as human morality. It's not about culpability. I doubt fate personified really cares about who's to blame. I think people approach the concept from the lens of their own practical subjective experience, whereas I try to look at it from a bird's eye view. At a fundamental level, cognitively, I doubt there is good and evil and the goal is eradication of 'evil', good triumphs over evil doesn't seem accurate when examining forces beyond humanity. There is only polarity and balance imo. You can't have 'good' without 'evil', etc.

I said the illusion of free will is helpful on a practical level and that is true. One of the ways that fate makes one it's subject I think is by facilitating the delusion that it's all about 'you', that it's all about your decisions and your experience, etc. That way you play into fate's hands willingly. People who claim fate is responsible for their lives are not incorrect, but that's just such a reductionist perspective on what is actually happening that I think it's largely unhelpful in informing their daily lives.

In all honesty, the fate vs free will debate is intellectually stimulating to some degree, but largely impractical and uninformative in how one 'should' live their lives.


Free will choice is like I pointed out vaster than choices in this life in my view as it expands beyond it many times and also involves other people and their free will choices traced back in time which together creates a situation that many people from my perspective would judge as fate, while I mean that that is free will choices that are interconnected within each other in a kind of a spiderweb/matrix and the way so solve this spider web/matrix is for each person to regain their awareness of/own their free will choice within this entanglement and then untangle themselves out of it step by step by within the limitations that their and others free will choices has created both individually and collectively in this right now moment we are currently in.

It is a kind of a mix of the traditionalistic and modernistic viewpoint I would say.

Y

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  #527  
Unread 08-11-2019, 01:34 PM
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wilsontc wilsontc is offline
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mundane vs personal, to moonkat

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I think people approach the concept from the lens of their own practical subjective experience, whereas I try to look at it from a bird's eye view. At a fundamental level, cognitively, I doubt there is good and evil and the goal is eradication of 'evil', good triumphs over evil doesn't seem accurate when examining forces beyond humanity. There is only polarity and balance imo. You can't have 'good' without 'evil', etc...One of the ways that fate makes one it's subject I think is by facilitating the delusion that it's all about 'you', that it's all about your decisions and your experience, etc. ...the fate vs free will debate is intellectually stimulating to some degree, but largely impractical and uninformative in how one 'should' live their lives.
moonkat,

It occurs to me that what you're talking about maybe what I consider more Mundane astrology which IS fated. The astrology of world conditions is fated because the world (and places and events IN the world) can NOT adjust based on astrological information. So the world and events CAN be predicted by using astrological charts. That's why squares in mundane charts always indicate SOME type of violence and danger, oppositions indicate warring factions, etc. But in PERSONAL charts people can choose what to do individually.

This results in the WORLD will go through whatever it's meant to go through while the INDIVIDUAL can adjust their life so THEY get through world events...intact. Of course, the more challenging the world events are, the more limited the adjustments an individual can make. So when comparing mundane to personal astrology there is still the "balancing act" of fated vs. personal.

About the differences of world and personal,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 08-11-2019 at 01:36 PM.
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  #528  
Unread 08-11-2019, 03:01 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: mundane vs personal, to moonkat

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

moonkat,

It occurs to me that what you're talking about
maybe what I consider more Mundane astrology which IS fated.
The astrology of world conditions is fated
because the world (and places and events IN the world)
can NOT adjust based on astrological information.
So the world and events CAN be predicted by using astrological charts.
That's why squares in mundane charts
always indicate SOME type of violence and danger, oppositions indicate warring factions, etc.
But in PERSONAL charts people can choose what to do
individually.
re: MUNDANE aka WORLD astrology and your agreement
that WORLD aka MUNDANE astrology IS fated
the following quote illustrates:

'......even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities,
when the time for war for that country comes,
they will all be killed....' Ibn Ezra

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

This results in the WORLD will go through whatever it's meant to go through
while the INDIVIDUAL can adjust their life
so THEY get through world events...intact.
Of course, the more challenging the world events are,
the more limited the adjustments an individual can make.
So when comparing mundane to personal astrology
there is still the "balancing act" of fated vs. personal.

Clearly
with reference to WORLD aka MUNDANE FATED astrology and INDIVIDUAL FREEWILL

INDIVIDUALS in HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI
HAD ONE MAJOR FACTOR in common during August 1945
i.e.
THEY WERE ALL LOCATED
IN TWO CITIES ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia View Post

And that is the key right there
not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions
that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard,
otherwise known as ibn Ezra,
one of the first things he tells astrologers is
that astrology does not contravene natural law.
He also explains that

a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy of other considerations.
From Nativities and Revolutions:
...The third way is the rule that comes from
the effect of the Great Conjunction on each country.
Thus, if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations
war is supposed to befall a certain nation,
even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities,
when the time for war for that country comes, they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

About the differences of world and personal,


Tim
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #529  
Unread 08-11-2019, 07:58 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: mundane vs personal, to moonkat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
moonkat,

It occurs to me that what you're talking about maybe what I consider more Mundane astrology which IS fated. The astrology of world conditions is fated because the world (and places and events IN the world) can NOT adjust based on astrological information. So the world and events CAN be predicted by using astrological charts. That's why squares in mundane charts always indicate SOME type of violence and danger, oppositions indicate warring factions, etc. But in PERSONAL charts people can choose what to do individually.

This results in the WORLD will go through whatever it's meant to go through while the INDIVIDUAL can adjust their life so THEY get through world events...intact. Of course, the more challenging the world events are, the more limited the adjustments an individual can make. So when comparing mundane to personal astrology there is still the "balancing act" of fated vs. personal.

About the differences of world and personal,

Tim
You misunderstand, but that's okay. I'll attempt this last time to express my perspective to you. I think the miscommunication stems from the deeply held conviction that you have regarding our ability to act free from influence. You seem to hold the opinion that conscious awareness of influences allows for conscious redirection based on one's will. And you seem to believe this opinion is self-evident in every person's subjective experience. It is not.

What I'm saying is that one's will is predetermined, fated if you will. Why do we want the things we want? How is our personality formed? How exactly would you define one's 'individual will'? Is that will free from all constraints and influences?

My opinion is that what I find desirable, what I find beautiful, what I want out of life is not without complete fundamental influence by more external concepts. Do you see now?

Further, I was not speaking of mundane astrology or 'worldly' affairs in a human sense. I was speaking of more macro universal forces that work at the micro individual level as well. I'm saying at a fundamental level, there is no right or wrong, good or evil and that viewing fate and determinism through the lens of personal responsibility is far too reductionist and simplistic. That's not the point. People shouldn't understand fate to inform how they behave. There's no point.

The understanding of fate/determinism is largely uninformative in how one 'should' live their life, and it's more of an intellectually stimulating curiosity. I don't think people should be thinking of how determinism takes away personal responsibility, because larger universal forces would rather humanity believe in their own self-efficacy. In this way, fate deludes humans into thinking they act of their own accord, when really they just behave within the confines of fate's dictation.

Last edited by moonkat235; 08-11-2019 at 08:28 PM.
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