Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:19 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

If anything, "Traditional" astrology is more bound up in ancient mystical thinking than "Modern" astrology. I incorporate more mysticism and ancient religion in my own personal view of astrology than most Mods, although "Esoteric" astrology is a style of "Modern" which is quite mystically inclined. I also require a more regular and structured pattern than standard "Modern" astrology.

Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to david starling For This Useful Post:
passiflora (07-25-2019)
  #252  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:34 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Actually, Pythagoras believed there was an audible hum involved regarding the Spheres. He also initiated the literal connection between audible music and numbering patterns in mathematics.
Musical categories was your analogy, and a valid one. And, just as many lovers of Classical music consider Jazz too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of what they consider music to actually be, many Trads consider Mod to be too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of astrology.
I'm aware of it, harmony and music. Let's go with your logic that music of the spherers is same as audible music or almost the same and since both astrology and audble music have the same harmony they can be compared.

But astrology is not just sacred geometry or harmony alone, it has planets, signs, houses, aspects, techniques etc. Even if you don't agree on what exactly astrology comprises of, you have to go beyond sacred geometry or harmony to calculate how planetary placements are causing or correlating or influencing events on earth. Here you can argue that modern astrologers do not care about planetary placements causing or influencing events on earth regardless they happen whether humans care or worry about them.

Now would you honestly say astrology and audible music or harmony (inaudible) are the same or even be compared?
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:39 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Now my freestanding comment about 'music of the spheres' looks silly, because it was posted while David was editing his comment immediately after posting

lostinstars, "music of the spheres" is an example of music as a valid analogy for astrology, but it frankly seems easier for you to dole out insults than engage, so enough.
It is not an insult, it is a polite way to put it, an insult would start with "do you know" or "are you aware", something like that.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:46 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Johan Kepler used astronomical observation to formulate his 3 laws of planetary motion. That ruined his love for "Traditional" astrology, even causing him to abandon the 12 Sign zodiac in favor of Aspects alone, including non-"Traditional" angles. The Spheres concept requires perfect circles, which was vital to astrologers from Hellenistic through the Rennaisance--circles within circles, spheres within spheres. And, the 3 laws are predicated on elliptical orbits. The word "ellipse" meant an "imperfect circle", and to Hellenistic thinking, the Heavens couldn't be anything less than perfect.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:49 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is not an insult, it is a polite way to put it, an insult would start with "do you know" or "are you aware", something like that.
It wasn't an insult. I wondered if you already knew about the Muse connection to both astrology and astronomy.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Unread 07-25-2019, 07:53 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Johan Kepler used astronomical observation to formulate his 3 laws of planetary motion. That ruined his love for "Traditional" astrology, even causing him to abandon the 12 Sign zodiac in favor of Aspects alone, including non-"Traditional" angles. The Spheres concept requires perfect circles, which was vital to astrologers from Hellenistic through the Rennaisance--circles within circles, spheres within spheres. And, the 3 laws are predicated on elliptical orbits. The word "ellipse" meant an "imperfect circle", and to Hellenistic thinking, the Heavens couldn't be anything less than perfect.
I don't get what you are trying to say. How is this valid to the discussion? Are you trying to say with aspects alone you can have astrology?
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Unread 07-25-2019, 08:00 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Hmmm. Lostinstars, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the distinct impression that you disapprove of mixing astrology with any psychological concept whatsoever, even if it's just as an adjunct to astrology.
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Unread 07-25-2019, 08:05 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
I don't get what you are trying to say. How is this valid to the discussion? Are you trying to say with aspects alone you can have astrology?
Yes, because what's basic to astrology is the firm belief that astronomical configurations have a direct connection to our personalities and our experiences in life. THAT'S what true skeptics proclaim as being "superstitious nonsense". Kepler remained an astrologer despite rejecting the Houses and Signs.

Last edited by david starling; 07-25-2019 at 08:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Unread 07-25-2019, 08:41 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Lostinstars, are you comfortable with people you associate with knowing that you "believe in astrology"? A lot of us are careful about who knows, because that causes some to doubt one's rationality.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Unread 07-25-2019, 09:48 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,376
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Lostinstars, are you comfortable with people you associate with
knowing that you "believe in astrology"?
A lot of us are careful about who knows, because
that causes some to doubt one's rationality.
modernist sun sign astrology is regarded as fairground entertainment
few are aware of traditional astrology
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
Aria Venue (10-02-2019), lostinstars (07-26-2019)
  #261  
Unread 07-25-2019, 09:54 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
modernist sun sign astrology is regarded as fairground entertainment
few are aware of traditional astrology
Why are so few "aware of 'Traditional ' astrology"?
Reply With Quote
  #262  
Unread 07-25-2019, 09:59 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,376
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Lostinstars, are you comfortable with people you associate with
knowing that you "believe in astrology"?
A lot of us are careful about who knows, because
that causes some to doubt one's rationality.
modernist sun sign astrology is regarded as fairground entertainment
few are aware of traditional astrology
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Why are so few "aware of 'Traditional ' astrology"?

most onlin forums are predominantly modernist
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Unread 07-25-2019, 09:59 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Many in the West are aware of Vedic astrology, but prefer their tropical Sun-sign descriptions.
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Unread 07-25-2019, 10:01 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,376
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Many in the West are aware of Vedic astrology, but
prefer their tropical Sun-sign descriptions.

Vedic is predominantly eastern, not a western interest
our forum is predominantly modernist tropical
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #265  
Unread 07-25-2019, 10:02 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,376
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

The next (and latest) phase of astrology itself is being labeled "Modern".
It draws from the past phases of astrology to create something new.
Hellenistic astrologers did the same thing

regarding Egyptian and Babylonian techniques
--kept what worked for them, and discarded the rest.
Clearly not read or studied HELLENISTIC astrologer Vettius Valens

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Vettius Valens discarded nothing
Vettius Valens' Anthologiae is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.

It is unique in several respects

the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients or associates
including his own, which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post

WOW! The example charts apparently ORIGINAL according to accademist
Prof. Mark Riley. Cool!
Valens THE ANTHOLOGY natal charts have proven valuable research material
for historians and academics
i.e.
Historians have used Valens authentic astrological charts
to fine-tune the dating of known historical events
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Unread 07-25-2019, 10:05 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Clearly not read or studied HELLENISTIC astrologer Vettius Valens

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Vettius Valens discarded nothing
Vettius Valens' Anthologiae is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.

It is unique in several respects

the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients or associates
including his own, which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.

Valens THE ANTHOLOGY natal charts have proven valuable research material
for historians and academics
i.e.
Historians have used Valens authentic astrological charts
to fine-tune the dating of known historical events
So, Valens included ALL ancient Egyptian and Babylonian techniques and imagery in his astrology?
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Unread 07-25-2019, 10:08 PM
passiflora's Avatar
passiflora passiflora is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 800
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Back on the question of submitting to one's Traditionalistic fate, or Modernistically believing your consciousness has some responsibility in the matter, there is Rajagopalan who murdered someone based on astrological advice.

I would say that even in following advice you have a responsibility given by the fact of your consciousness, and... should he have given up pursuit of this woman who according to the stars would have made him rich beyond imagining?

Lust, Money & Masala Dosa - When The Stars Didn't Bless Saravana Bhavan Boss P Rajagopal
https://www.outlookindia.com/website...ownfall/327760

Astrology appears to have played a key role in making him India's 'dosa king' and also led to his downfall.

The Supreme Court today upheld the conviction and life sentence of P. Rajagopal, the founder of the popular Saravana Bhavan chain of restaurants, for the murder of a man in 2001.
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Unread 07-25-2019, 10:28 PM
passiflora's Avatar
passiflora passiflora is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 800
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

JupiterAsc, I am confused as to why you literally post the same thing again and again in lieu of engagement?
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Unread 07-26-2019, 02:53 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
JupiterAsc, I am confused as to why you literally post the same thing again and again in lieu of engagement?
I think it's been a fun thread, but we're really not getting anywhere. We ended up fending off the passive-aggressive distain Trads have for any developments in astrological thinking since the discovery of elliptical orbits. As fate would have it.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to david starling For This Useful Post:
passiflora (07-26-2019)
  #270  
Unread 07-26-2019, 03:56 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,247
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Let's see if the OP and/or J.A. can give a straight answer to this one question: Do Traditionalistic astrologers adhere to the belief that one's fate is sealed by what the Natal-chart reveals using "Traditional" methods?

Last edited by david starling; 07-26-2019 at 03:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Unread 07-26-2019, 04:41 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Hmmm. Lostinstars, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the distinct impression that you disapprove of mixing astrology with any psychological concept whatsoever, even if it's just as an adjunct to astrology.
I'm not against mixing psychology with astrology but what modern astrologers did can't be called mixing it is something like invading astrology destroying the integrity of astrology as a divinatory discipline adding new meanings which never existed.

I have stated my position several times on this thread but modern astrologers seem to deny that is not the case which is if I analyse my behaviour and imbibe the experiene of events things will fall in place like my health improves, finances improve etc., or it even does not matter as some modern astrologers say but I say it matters I'm still a human I have to live my life pay my bills take care of things in my present and future.

I said in few posts before I'm not going to arguge on Astrocartography but now I think I have to make it clear. Astrocartography works because people move to a different place on the planet and as they move the impact of planets on them change due to the relative position, making some stronger and some weaker. Why should modern astrologers even bother with something like Astrocartography if the psychoanalysis they may give to their client is enough to take care of all their problems?

Hope you understand the limitations of psychology in astrology.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Unread 07-26-2019, 04:45 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Lostinstars, are you comfortable with people you associate with knowing that you "believe in astrology"? A lot of us are careful about who knows, because that causes some to doubt one's rationality.
I have very atheistic friends with PhDs, their arrogance is totally on another level. Only my close friends know about my interests in occult, I refrain from talking anything about it to priests of science as I call such friends.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Unread 07-26-2019, 04:55 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Back on the question of submitting to one's Traditionalistic fate, or Modernistically believing your consciousness has some responsibility in the matter, there is Rajagopalan who murdered someone based on astrological advice.

I would say that even in following advice you have a responsibility given by the fact of your consciousness, and... should he have given up pursuit of this woman who according to the stars would have made him rich beyond imagining?

Lust, Money & Masala Dosa - When The Stars Didn't Bless Saravana Bhavan Boss P Rajagopal
https://www.outlookindia.com/website...ownfall/327760

Astrology appears to have played a key role in making him India's 'dosa king' and also led to his downfall.

The Supreme Court today upheld the conviction and life sentence of P. Rajagopal, the founder of the popular Saravana Bhavan chain of restaurants, for the murder of a man in 2001.
The article does not say some astrologer told him to marry that particular woman because it is good for him or his business. You took it out of context, if I were to get hold of his natal chart somehow and show you the high possibility of getting imprisoned, what would be your answer?

I said it twice already in the earlier posts you don't have to surrender to your fate but make a choice, but don't be disappointed if things don't turn out the way you wanted.


edit: in a linked article it says so that astrologer asked him to marry this woman. But this does not hold any relevance to our argument because if a traditional astrologer says to me you are likely to become a murderer then I will do my best to avoid it as I know it is not an ethical or humane thing to do. But there could be a fool who may act out.

For example in Vedic astrology there are some aspects which get activated apparently when a native's maternal uncle dies. If an astrologer were to tell a client same thing s/he would wonder when my uncle will die so I can get all the money.

That is why ethics are very important on what you need to tell the client as much as where you should stop fooling the client?
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-26-2019 at 05:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Unread 07-26-2019, 04:59 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Let's see if the OP and/or J.A. can give a straight answer to this one question: Do Traditionalistic astrologers adhere to the belief that one's fate is sealed by what the Natal-chart reveals using "Traditional" methods?
I thought I gave straight answers to all your questions and yes I believe that fate is sealed in the natal chart and when I have the right method to calculate with a fair accuracy on what an individual will turn out to be, I will let everyone know.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
david starling (07-26-2019)
  #275  
Unread 07-26-2019, 06:18 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Yes, because what's basic to astrology is the firm belief that astronomical configurations have a direct connection to our personalities and our experiences in life. THAT'S what true skeptics proclaim as being "superstitious nonsense". Kepler remained an astrologer despite rejecting the Houses and Signs.
I completely agree astrology accepts that astronomical bodies affect or influence or cause events on earth and individual lives. You are right about it. Finally one thing we agree on.

I'm wondering if it possible to say anything about a native just with aspects without houses and signs? May be we can do away with signs but houses I think are needed. For world events we do not need anything but aspects.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
astrology, comparison, fate, free, modern, traditional

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.