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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 02-14-2012, 12:38 PM
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Hyleg and Alcocoden

This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:
Quote:
The Hyleg is a planet in the chart that fulfils certain conditions. Once found, it
signifies that life is present. Generally the planet’s individual nature does not reflect
on the quality of this life force, but the presence of a Hyleg tells the astrologer that life
is granted to the horoscope. The astrologer will then look for the planet, which has a
certain relationship to the Hyleg, and this planet is called the Alcoccoden. The duty of
the Alcoccoden is to allocate the years or length of life. If there is no Hyleg in a chart,
there can be no Alcoccoden.
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.
(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).


Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
whitney houston traditional.jpg

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
years of the planets.jpg

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 05:10 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus, that's an uncannily accurate example you just illustrated!

So in a hypothetical case... if potential Hyleg IS ONE OF the dignity rulers BUT is not aspecting any of the other dignity rulers would you eliminate that planet as Hyleg and continue to the next potential candidate? If not then Hyleg could be also Alcocoden?

- e.g. (a) Night chart, Moon in Cancer above horizon in a feminine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn (b) Day chart Sun in Leo above the horizon in a masculine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 06:09 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 10:27 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas View Post
Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.
Hmm interesting reasoning. I think that even suicides and accidents of all kind happen first in the mental/astral realm and the condition of the natives mental/astral bodies is a causative trigger here. In other words, the mental-emotional make up of the person is leading him toward physical accidents.
I never saw in my life quite balanced emotionally person to have an accident. Somehow these persons are mastering the physical plane with their mental-emotional vitality.
I can recall of the example which Swami Yogananda gives. Someday in his region an accident happen to some kid: he looses the finger.
Yogananda said to him later: "I saw a dark cloud above your head prior your accident". Vedic astrologers says that planetary configurations (accordingly with the transits, directions and in correlation to the natal chart) opens an astral door for some significance, or mental-astral material which enters in that persons well being. How mature and how it would handle that it is up to the person and maybe some other factors of which we are not aware.
My point here is that physical plane is not all that it exists. So the vitality is something which is and can be relative for a person who works on their inner self developing. Hermeticists says: (Astra inclinant, non necessitant) The stars incline; they do not determine.
So, in a way, the life of the man who is spiritually advanced and the one who is not is different. The first is less predictable than the second.
But again, we can see how very advanced spiritual masters die younger than some quite ordinary man.
It is a deep subject, and my reasoning here is speculative and subjective, but at the moment it is the best I can give.
However, I'm not sure whether the Alcocoden acts as protection. But it can be said like that, it is a state of the vital force, its condition in your 3 bodies: mental, astral and physical. If one is an Alchemist, working with the Stone which is made by man's sperm in which it is pressed a vital force in the maximum amount in human's body, than one can gain immortality, so the Alcocoden here does not count! You have transmute the Alcocoden!
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Unread 02-14-2012, 10:05 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Omnisphericus, that's an uncannily accurate example you just illustrated!

So in a hypothetical case... if potential Hyleg IS ONE OF the dignity rulers BUT is not aspecting any of the other dignity rulers would you eliminate that planet as Hyleg and continue to the next potential candidate? If not then Hyleg could be also Alcocoden?

- e.g. (a) Night chart, Moon in Cancer above horizon in a feminine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn (b) Day chart Sun in Leo above the horizon in a masculine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.
JUPITERASC, I'm not familiar of the probability of Hyleg to be Alcocoden also.
I think that I read somewhere that that possibility is possible too, but I'm not quite familiar with where and when and in what occasions.
In other words, I'm not sure. But it is a very good question and I look forward to find answer on it.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 07:29 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thank you for that very good example. I will study it more when I have time. The sun is hyleg in my chart, but the alcocoden has proved elusive so I must have no years. My sun, moon and other planets are conjunct deadly fixed stars, and from time to time dangerous accidents take me by surprise, but I am still here.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 10:29 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
Thank you for that very good example. I will study it more when I have time. The sun is hyleg in my chart, but the alcocoden has proved elusive so I must have no years. My sun, moon and other planets are conjunct deadly fixed stars, and from time to time dangerous accidents take me by surprise, but I am still here.
Culpeper, don't be so negative. Do not let astrology to be your self-fulfilling prophecy!
If you have a good positioned benefics it can be very helpful. Do you have your chart posted on this forum?
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Unread 02-15-2012, 04:03 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I have a question, if I may.

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.
First to clarify that in this explination "quarter" is synonomous with house? I understand that if Sun or Moon are not positioned as described, we need to look to an alternate, and again in Whitney's chart you have done so. How to decide which alternate to look at first? Is the SAN the next one, and what to do if it is Conjunctional (and out of curiosity, what if it's an eclipse?)
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Unread 02-15-2012, 04:54 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I have a question, if I may.



First to clarify that in this explination "quarter" is synonomous with house? I understand that if Sun or Moon are not positioned as described, we need to look to an alternate, and again in Whitney's chart you have done so. How to decide which alternate to look at first? Is the SAN the next one, and what to do if it is Conjunctional (and out of curiosity, what if it's an eclipse?)
No, quarter is a set of 3 houses: 1,2,3/4,5,6/7,8,9/10,11,12/
If Sun or Moon are not adequate for Hyleg then you look to the Syzygy (SAN - Syzygyium Ante Nativatem), if the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon it is said that the chart is Conjunctional and you look for the ASC as potential Hyleg.
If the last lunation prior the birth was Full Moon, it is said that the chart is Preventional and you look to the PoF for potential Hyleg.

Lilly suggest that if nor Sun nor Moon can not be Hyleg, then you go to the Degree of the New Moon (Conjunction) if the chart is diurnal (sun above the horizon in the natal chart) and you take the Almuten (the planet which has the highest dignity points in that degree) of that degree in which the Moon is in the syzygy of the new moon; that planet is potential Hyleg (in this method all planets can be Hyleg).
If the chart is nocturnal (Sun bellow the horizon in the natal chart) you took the last Full Moon (Preventional) Degree and seek the Almuten of that degree to be the potential Hyleg planet.
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Unread 02-15-2012, 05:44 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I apologize if I seem dense, but I am trying to understand when the Hyleg is not obvious. From my own chart, Sun is in Libra above the horizon but only 12* above the ASC. So 12th or 1st depending on the house system preferred. Moon is in Pisces below the horizon, in 6th. So according to the explination, neither can be Hyleg. Since it is a day chart, next we look at the prenatal lunation, in this case a New Moon/eclipse at 18Virgo53, and see what planet has most dignity. That would be Mercury, hands down, right? Mercury gets 9 points (domicile and exaltation ruler) Venus is triplicity and face ruler for 4 points (though in fall -4...does that even out to 0?) and Saturn gets 2 for term. So, Mercury has most dignity. But, Mercury is in Libra at 10* and makes no aspect to that degree. Is it still Hyleg? Nothing makes an in orb aspect to that degree. The closest is moon at 27Pis41, and Saturn retro at 7 Taurus Mercury is retro and combust, and Moon is peregrine and cadent. Are they disqualified?
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:29 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus:

After looking at my notes on this subject, I see that I decided on either the Part of Fortune or Part of Hyleg (asc + Moon - PreNatal Lunation) for use as hyleg in my chart. Both are close together in the first house. Mercury then has the most essential dignity, and it is in the 10th house. The greater years apply and this would be 76 years. The Sun in my chart is conjunct fixed star Scheat. I think the combination could be called anareta. Certainly not hyleg.

My chart can be found here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=4321

I worked out the hyleg and alcocoden for various celebrities, politicians, ordinary people and royalty. There was a rather close correlation with the alcocoden years and the actual length of life. Empirical experimentation indicates that the hyleg can be in the eighth house. The hyleg and alcocoden need not aspect or behold each other at least for politicians and royalty.

The following two examples died violent deaths:

John F. Kennedy, 29 May 1917, 15:00, Brookline, Massachusetts. In Kennedy's chart the Sun is hyleg and in the 9th house in at 7 degrees Gemini. Mercury is alcocoden in the 8th house. Mercury is close between Jupiter and Mars. The Mercury years for a succeedant house is 48. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 60, and subtract the least years of Mars 15 and it becomes 45. JFK was 46 when he died.

Princess Diana of Wales, 1 July 1961, 19:45, Sandringham, England. Diana's Sun is in the 8th house at at 9 degrees Cancer. I have used it for the hyleg. The Moon has the most essential dignity and is in the 3rd house with Jupiter. The least years of the Moon are 25. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 37 for total years. Diana was 36 when she died.

Whole Sign Houses used.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 07:25 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I have an interesting note to share. I've sort of been a bad kid and have been going through the charts of people I know to calculate their hylegs and alcocodens. I have one friend who is 24 whose alcocoden gives her roughly 22 years. She's obviously alive and well, but the interesting thing is last year she was sent to the ER for chest pains and was diagnosed with heart palpitations, she's on medicine for it now.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:21 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

So the system could work for people who die in accidents or homicides. But we need more examples to confirm how Hyleg and Alcoccoden work.

JUPITERASC, can you please shows as the method you use? I mean the math.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 12:28 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

hi Omnisphericus and others...I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Depending On Mercury's situation, it can change. Can I ask you guys to analyze my longevity. I know many people don't like to do that but I've already done it for myself. I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you guys think?
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:19 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas View Post
So the system could work for people who die in accidents or homicides. But we need more examples to confirm how Hyleg and Alcoccoden work.

JUPITERASC, can you please shows as the method you use? I mean the math.
Yes, JupiterAsc it would be great to give more insights on your math, I'm too a little bit confused. Because Venus IS cadent. Can you give more details of your method of calculation?
I suppose you are talking about the Right and Oblique Ascension?!
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:13 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

hi Omnisphericus. I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Can you view my chart and tell me which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you think?
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:20 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
I have an interesting note to share. I've sort of been a bad kid and have been going through the charts of people I know to calculate their hylegs and alcocodens. I have one friend who is 24 whose alcocoden gives her roughly 22 years. She's obviously alive and well, but the interesting thing is last year she was sent to the ER for chest pains and was diagnosed with heart palpitations, she's on medicine for it now.
This is another example how the modern medicine is giving years to the length of life of men.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:21 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/vi...a62f26c128046c

Here's an interesting forum discussion about the adding/subtracting according to Ptolomy.
I suppose that this is the method of which JupiterAsc was talking.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:53 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus,

take a look here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=36454
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Unread 02-21-2012, 08:43 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
"I do not agree that the sun must be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years."

Jeanne Louise Calment.
Born 21 February,1875,07:00am,Arles,France.(AA data)
Died 4 August 1997 age 122.
Astodienst.

J.R.
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Unread 02-21-2012, 11:26 PM
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Great Article on H & A

http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.ar...html#_ftnref24

This is great article on Hyleg and Alcochoden by italian astrologer Giuseppe Bezza on the site Cielo e Terra.
Here he speaks about the origin of the words and the earlier correspondence with the philosophical authors from the period. It is great article and certainly worth reading.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:08 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
Omnisphericus:

After looking at my notes on this subject, I see that I decided on either the Part of Fortune or Part of Hyleg (asc + Moon - PreNatal Lunation) for use as hyleg in my chart. Both are close together in the first house. Mercury then has the most essential dignity, and it is in the 10th house. The greater years apply and this would be 76 years. The Sun in my chart is conjunct fixed star Scheat. I think the combination could be called anareta. Certainly not hyleg.

My chart can be found here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=4321

I worked out the hyleg and alcocoden for various celebrities, politicians, ordinary people and royalty. There was a rather close correlation with the alcocoden years and the actual length of life. Empirical experimentation indicates that the hyleg can be in the eighth house. The hyleg and alcocoden need not aspect or behold each other at least for politicians and royalty.

The following two examples died violent deaths:

John F. Kennedy, 29 May 1917, 15:00, Brookline, Massachusetts. In Kennedy's chart the Sun is hyleg and in the 9th house in at 7 degrees Gemini. Mercury is alcocoden in the 8th house. Mercury is close between Jupiter and Mars. The Mercury years for a succeedant house is 48. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 60, and subtract the least years of Mars 15 and it becomes 45. JFK was 46 when he died.

Princess Diana of Wales, 1 July 1961, 19:45, Sandringham, England. Diana's Sun is in the 8th house at at 9 degrees Cancer. I have used it for the hyleg. The Moon has the most essential dignity and is in the 3rd house with Jupiter. The least years of the Moon are 25. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 37 for total years. Diana was 36 when she died.

Whole Sign Houses used.
Hi Culpeper,
Your work though out of tradition is very impressive. It seems that your method of not (necessarily) having aspect between H & A obviously works. Many of the medieval authors does not accept Sun as Hyleg in 8th, and those who are accepting it, are accepting the Sun in 8th only if in masculine sign (while Diana's Sun is in feminine sign).

Why did you eliminate the Moon as your Hyleg?
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Unread 03-16-2012, 07:12 PM
sprinthrussfed sprinthrussfed is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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According to Ptolemy, if Sun is present in 1st, 7th, 9th, 10th or 11th houses, then it will be the hyleg. If Moon is present in these places then it will become hyleg. If neither, then the cusp of the Ascendant will be the hyleg.

According to Bonatti, if Sun is present in 1st, 10th or 11th houses, then it becomes hyleg. Otherwise if Sun is in 7th, 8th or 9th houses and it is a masculine house, then it becomes hyleg. If Sun is not hyleg then think about Moon. If Moon is in 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th houses then it becomes hyleg. Otherwise if Moon is in 2nd, 5th, 8th or 11th house which is a feminine house then it becomes hyleg.


don't you agree with them?
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Unread 03-17-2012, 04:00 AM
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Omnisphericus Omnisphericus is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by sprinthrussfed View Post


don't you agree with them?
I do not understand your question.
There are different methods about finding the Hyleg presented with different authors. You've just mentioned two of them. We started this thread in order to check the validity of each author's method applying it in actual charts of already death persons in order to find which one is most workable.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 06:32 PM
sprinthrussfed sprinthrussfed is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
I do not understand your question.
There are different methods about finding the Hyleg presented with different authors. You've just mentioned two of them. We started this thread in order to check the validity of each author's method applying it in actual charts of already death persons in order to find which one is most workable.
how many methods are there? which method did you use in your first post?

which method do you think is the most workable?
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