Hellenistic delineations

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may28gemini

I think that's extremely sad, for both the human that got mauled and the animal that probably will get put down for mauling. That creature must be very unhappy about something... it was abused/mistreated for it to lash out.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
may28gemini said:
I think that's extremely sad, for both the human that got mauled and the animal that probably will get put down for mauling. That creature must be very unhappy about something... it was abused/mistreated for it to lash out.
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Not necessarily. The zoo owner, whilst acknowledging the tragic nature of the event, is reminding everyone that Tigers are natural born killers/predators so there's nothing odd or strange that a tiger has mauled/killed :smile:
 
M

may28gemini

So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
may28gemini said:
So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).
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This being the 'Hellenistic Delineations' Thread and also Traditional Forum, if the date of birth of the victim is ever publicized, then delineation of the chart would use Hellenistic astrological techniques as outlined at the beginning of this thread... and an accurate time of birth would be essential :smile:

According to news reports the victim was NOT 'suddenly taken unawares by an attacking tiger' but instead she apparently 'deliberately walked ALONE into the inner enclosure amongst the tigers' - extraordinary behavior that has surprised everyone at the zoo, because one simply does not walk alone into an enclosure full of possibly hungry tigers.
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
may28gemini said:
So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).
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First rule of dealing with wild cats..never turn your back on them. First rule in zookeeping? Any attack is the fault of the human and not the animal.

may28gemini, all zoo people know, understand, and accept that wild animals are and always will be unpredictable (and as a zoo people, I should know.) Do we blame the cat for acting like the cat/predator he/she is? Of course not. There is a parable of sorts, about the scorpion and the frog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

As to whether or not this could be seen in the native's chart, well that is the point that JUPITERASC is trying to make. That which we often want to dismiss in our haste to discount what our ancestors in astrology teach (and which in my opinion can be viewed as metaphor, much the same as what our religious teachings found in the Bible, the Qur'an, the Talmud...or any religious text you choose) often can be interpreted literally instead of symbolically.
 
Larxene

Larxene

Well-known member
If we can get our hands on the native's chart, I believe there's a hellenistic technique of predicting one's death, involving the Hyleg and Alcocoden if I'm not mistaken.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Hellenistic astrologers routinely predicted death. People didn't live so long in ancient times, so one of the first things done with a baby's nativity was to check its longevity, on the grounds there was no point in forecasting the child's life into middle age if he wasn't going to have one. Check out Ptolemy and Vettius Valens.

Of course, we have no way of verifying their accuracy. The techniques are not identical and they don't all give the same answer.

Also in Roman times infanticide was common, for children who were unwanted for whatever reason. Sometimes parents would look to an astrologer for this purpose. However, babies were sometimes rescued from the garbage dumps where they were abandoned, though often to be "collected" by unscrupulous traffickers in slaves and prostitutes. So it's unclear how accurate the horoscopes pointing to infanticide would have been.

Not a pretty thought.
 
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tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
Larxene said:
If we can get our hands on the native's chart, I believe there's a hellenistic technique of predicting one's death, involving the Hyleg and Alcocoden if I'm not mistaken.
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What is with everyone suddenly wanting to predict death?

Hilij and kadukhudhah are later Arabic words and terms. If I have this correctly (and goodness knows I probably don't. Reading some of this stuff makes my eyes cross) there is a big difference in who can be hilij/hyleg (later Persian) and who can be Epikratetor (also know as predominator) in the chart. The Greeks were much more restrictive in the choices.

But again...why does it seem lately that so many people are concerned with predicting their deaths?
 
Larxene

Larxene

Well-known member
I was responding to the animal attack topic. We may not be able to predict animal attacks, but if we have that woman's chart, we may be able to find the time of her death within the chart, and manner of death (I believe there was something on this. Not sure.)
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
tsmall said:
What is with everyone suddenly wanting to predict death?

Hilij and kadukhudhah are later Arabic words and terms. If I have this correctly (and goodness knows I probably don't. Reading some of this stuff makes my eyes cross) there is a big difference in who can be hilij/hyleg (later Persian) and who can be Epikratetor (also know as predominator) in the chart. The Greeks were much more restrictive in the choices.

But again...why does it seem lately that so many people are concerned with predicting their deaths?
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I know you're not a modern astrologer, but I wonder if it's Pluto in Capricorn opposing a big stellium in Cancer: sun, moon, Mercury, Jupiter; with Uranus in Aries forming a T-square. Some of these planets have moved out-of-orb, but then the posts started a few days ago.

I don't think it would affect everyone: just people with "hits" from the Roman god of death and the underworld.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
waybread said:
I know you're not a modern astrologer, but I wonder if it's Pluto in Capricorn opposing a big stellium in Cancer: sun, moon, Mercury, Jupiter; with Uranus in Aries forming a T-square. Some of these planets have moved out-of-orb, but then the posts started a few days ago.

I don't think it would affect everyone: just people with "hits" from the Roman god of death and the underworld.
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Those ideas are for modern astrologers and of no consequence on the Traditional forum Hellenistic delineations thread :smile:
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
waybread said:
I know you're not a modern astrologer, but I wonder if it's Pluto in Capricorn opposing a big stellium in Cancer: sun, moon, Mercury, Jupiter; with Uranus in Aries forming a T-square. Some of these planets have moved out-of-orb, but then the posts started a few days ago.

I don't think it would affect everyone: just people with "hits" from the Roman god of death and the underworld.
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JUPITERASC is correct, a question surrounding Pluto probably doesn't belong on this thread, but I'm wicked confused (to use a Downeast colloquialism.) Currently, Jupiter is in Cancer, but..Sun is in Libra, Mercury is is Scorpio and Moon..well it really doesn't matter where the Moon is at the moment because as you point out these inquiries have been happening for quite a bit of time now.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
The dates on these posts are hard to read, but my latest was from July, when a bunch of planets were in Cancer. But Pluto was in Capricorn.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
waybread said:
The dates on these posts are hard to read, but my latest was from July, when a bunch of planets were in Cancer. But Pluto was in Capricorn.
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QUOTE

Traditional Astrology Forum is for discussions on Traditional Astrology only.

Note:

Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras.

Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction

and EXCLUDES modern planets Neptune, Uranus and Pluto :smile:

non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction.

Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)
 
D

dr. farr

Well-known member
Just a historical note regarding Kepler's (non-Ptolemaic) aspects: these were proposed by Kepler (prior to 1630) and were extensively used in astrological delineation by many during the 17th century, including Placidus de Titus, who was perhaps the most famous of the astrologers during that time who used these non-Ptolemaic aspects in chart analysis (see for example, his 2 volume "De Siderum Judiciis", 1660, 1665) Note that it was also this same Placidus de Titus who introduced the Placidus House system during that pre-1700 time: if it is ok to discuss pre-1700 house division formats (like Placidus) in our Traditional Forum, why is it not ok to discuss pre-1700 non-Ptolemaic aspects used by Placidus (and others) in their astrological practice, during those same pre-1700 times??

NOW, I myself do NOT use the Kepler aspects (followed by Placidus de Titus-more exactly, "de Titis"-and others), and I have no interest in discussing them-but I post this, just for the historical record (a reference to Placidus de Titus application of Kepler aspects can be found as a footnote in the Ashmand translation of Ptolemy's "Tetrabiblos")...
 
P

Purple9

Well-known member
I would just like to take a moment and thank everyone on this thread, an these forums in general for the time, effort and care to put this together, for the benefit of everyone eager to learn. Studying astrology is so very time-consuming even in the modern age of technology where you have to sift through the garbage to get to the point and it is so easy to lose your way. I live in a place where there is no access to old books and I live the kind of life that does not lend itself to spending money on books (or my studies) except during the odd transit. So really, thank you for everything all of you do here. This thread is just one awesome example of this. Apologies for a non-astrological post. Just felt overwhelmed with gratitude. All the best.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Purple9 said:
I would just like to take a moment
and thank everyone on this thread
an these forums in general for the time, effort and care
to put this together, for the benefit of everyone eager to learn.
Studying astrology is so very time-consuming
even in the modern age of technology
where you have to sift through the garbage to get to the point
and it is so easy to lose your way.
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Then read all posts made by member BobZemco
he has not posted for months, if not years
but we have his comments
and they are valuable
for example the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443&highlight=feral
Purple9 said:
I live in a place where there is no access to old books
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Good news - there's a study library of FREE TEXTS on the web
There are five collections in this library.
  • The main collection contains links to books and magazines written in English that are directly related to 'traditional astrology' (from classical to modern times).
  • The extended collection refers to texts that are partly astrological or useful for historical research or philosophical principles.
  • The ancient collection contains links to ancient texts, fragments, or secondary sources that cover the ancient period.
  • The scholar's collection contains links to published theses, dissertations, and peer-reviewed papers.
  • The Latin & Greek collection contains links to important works in older languages
details at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

Another good list of links to astrological works is available at http://cura.free.fr/DIAL.html

Purple9 said:
and I live the kind of life that does not lend itself to spending money on books
(or my studies) except during the odd transit.
So really, thank you for everything all of you do here.
This thread is just one awesome example of this.
Apologies for a non-astrological post.
Just felt overwhelmed with gratitude. All the best.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your good wishes to us all Purple9 :smile:
always good to be appreciated
 
P

Purple9

Well-known member
"Then read all posts made by member BobZemco
he has not posted for months, if not years
but we have his comments
and they are valuable
for example the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443&highlight=feral"

ON IT!

"Good news - there's a study library of FREE TEXTS on the web
There are five collections in this library.

"details at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html"
I found this already yes and sourcing

"Another good list of links to astrological works is available at http://cura.free.fr/DIAL.html"
HA! On it!

Thank you so much!



 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Purple, if you have a particular interest in Hellenistic astrology, and can afford one book, I would recommend Chris Brennan's new book, Hellenistic Astrology. It's available at amazon.

Also, Mark Riley's translation of Vettius Valens, Anthologies (150 CE) is on-line at:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf

The Skyscript website is a goldmine of traditional astrology articles. www.skyscript.co.uk

Then don't overlook your nearest university or public library. University libraries will often give memberships to people in the community: just inquire in person at the information desk or via email to the head librarian or whoever handles library cards. If you don't live near a university, even a small branch library (like the one in my nearest town, pop. 5000) can get books and articles through Interlibrary Loan for you. The astrology-for-astrologers materials probably wouldn't available, but for sure you could get English translations of Ptolemy and Manilius. Even a small branch library can access the big urban public libraries as well as university libraries.

If you let me know your particular interests I can post some additional references.
 
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