Bullying

aquarius7000

Well-known member
...I think of Pluto as a Benefic, rather than as a Malefic.

For me, the two "problem planets" are the usual suspects, Mars and Saturn, when it comes to Malefics. But, even then, it depends on what effect they have on your own Chart. Some can handle them well, some poorly, most somewhere in between.
I think Pluto on someone's Sun for instance can make one very stubborn and even obsessive. These people can take to extremism.

Plu on someone's Moon can also make people emotionally obsessive.

Plu is no innocent lamb.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
A couple of things here... Mars in conj. to another personal planet is by no means a 'harmonious' aspect, so that is the first thing your mother-in-law has... a not-harmonious-aspect from Mars to her Sun.

Secondly, because it is Pisces Mars does not mean it cannot bully. It just operates differently in Pisces- a water sign. She might not be an outright lund, feisty or verbally abusive type. However, a person with this aspect could be a scheming and manipulative person.

I would not want to comment further without seeing the charts, but I did want to jump in there and say the afore bit about Mars.

That's my point. Mars in pisces can indeed be a bully. That's the point i was trying to get across. And yes, mars conjunct sun is not a harmonious aspect. The other aspects are though.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
I think Pluto on someone's Sun for instance can make one very stubborn and even obsessive. These people can take to extremism.

Plu on someone's Moon can also make people emotionally obsessive.

Plu is no innocent lamb.

Im someone with pluto 10 degrees away from my sun and i must say i can be obsessive and stubborn, but i still do not bully.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I think Pluto on someone's Sun for instance can make one very stubborn and even obsessive. These people can take to extremism.

Plu on someone's Moon can also make people emotionally obsessive.

Plu is no innocent lamb.

In the ancient Greek religion, Pluto was one of the 3 gods with "Earthly Authority", bestowed upon them by Gaea, the goddess who personified the Earth. Zeus was sky-god, Poseidon, sea-god, and Pluto ruled anything below the Earth's crust.

Both Poseidon/Neptune and Pluto were of the deep realms, and I see their influence as being deep psychologically-speaking. They aren't focused on the material world, like Zeus/Jupiter and Cronos/Saturn.

Pluto is about the Soul, and its journey after death, aided by Hermes/Mercury. Transformations are ruled by Plu.

I bring the ancient religious pantheons, mostly Sumerian, Egyptian, and Greco-Roman, into my interpretation of rulership characteristics, with a focus on Greco-Roman. I realize that not everyone does, but it helps me with my readings. As waybread often says, "It works for me.". :biggrin:
 

Ukpoohbear

Well-known member
Seriously? My mother in law is a MASTER ABUSER and she has mars in pisces conjunct sun. And her mars has harmonious aspects. I cant remember the name of the particular abuse asteroid im thinking of but she has it exact on her ascendant. But what she does have is difficult aspects to pluto. Another thing I look at is the planets that represent childhood that could affect the subconscious conditioning of a person - like all that inner child stuff. With my MIL her mercury (childhood years) is heavily aspected with pluto and moon and her venus (teenage years) is opposite Saturn in virgo. So her whole young years were pretty hard. She never really grew up past the teenage years and she is constantly acting from a place of the immature high school bully without seeing the consequences of her actions. Her adult years (sun conjunct mars) were very strong and she's holding onto it for dear life, as the control freak she is cos she never ever wants to feel like the kid she was again.

Algol? I think your MIL is a Taurus ascendant if I remember correctly. She literally ‘loses her head’ with women.
 

Ukpoohbear

Well-known member
David Starling’s explanation makes sense to me. Jupiter and Saturn are material and Pluto is psychological. That’s not to say Pluto still cannot be involved in abuse, but the reasons for it/the type of bullying is psychological, which explains why it seems far worse because it penetrates deeper. If the Pluto person is unevolved then they could be psychologically prone to tormenting someone, in order to deal with their own issues ie projection.

I also like the word ‘tormenting’ to describe the psychological attack towards someone’s soul. To me, the word ‘bullying’ implies a shallower, more material, mild form of harassment. True harassment seems more Plutonian and will effect someone psychologically, which will give them mental illness and could even destroy them which, as Abby pointed out, is their end goal.

I’m reminded of the cop and George Floyd. There was a lot going on psychologically. It was about harassment/domination. Domination seems more Mars and Saturn territory though. Harassment is Pluto’s forté.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
The two hardest to handle well in one's Chart configuration, are first, Saturn, second, Pluto. But, Saturn handled badly is the cause of most of the world's materialistic problems, when coupled with Mars.
 
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Abby83

Well-known member
Algol? I think your MIL is a Taurus ascendant if I remember correctly. She literally ‘loses her head’ with women.

YASSSSS!!!!! That's it. Well done. And yes, you can see in her chart she doesnt think much of the men in her life and she's a nasty pasty to women too.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
The two hardest to handle well in one's Chart configuration, are first, Saturn, second, Pluto. But, Saturn handled badly is the cause of most of the world's materialistic problems, when coupled with Mars.

Oh come on. Saturn aspects are shorter and nowhere near as abusive. Just lessons.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
David Starling’s explanation makes sense to me. Jupiter and Saturn are material and Pluto is psychological. That’s not to say Pluto still cannot be involved in abuse, but the reasons for it/the type of bullying is psychological, which explains why it seems far worse because it penetrates deeper. If the Pluto person is unevolved then they could be psychologically prone to tormenting someone, in order to deal with their own issues ie projection.

I also like the word ‘tormenting’ to describe the psychological attack towards someone’s soul. To me, the word ‘bullying’ implies a shallower, more material, mild form of harassment. True harassment seems more Plutonian and will effect someone psychologically, which will give them mental illness and could even destroy them which, as Abby pointed out, is their end goal.

I’m reminded of the cop and George Floyd. There was a lot going on psychologically. It was about harassment/domination. Domination seems more Mars and Saturn territory though. Harassment is Pluto’s forté.

But if pluto is in an angular house it IS physical.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Oh come on. Saturn aspects are shorter and nowhere near as abusive. Just lessons.

Saturn gives the test before teaching the lesson. Like throwing a child into the deep end of the pool without a life-preserver or flotation device before teaching the swimming lessons: "Sink or swim", and if the child survives, the lesson will have been learned!
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Im someone with pluto 10 degrees away from my sun and i must say i can be obsessive and stubborn, but i still do not bully.

Well, we are not reading your personal chart here, so what I was saying was in a more generic sense. The point I was trying to make was that Pluto can impart certain tendencies that can be the source of underlying currents to bullying. Mars, on the other hand, being a personal planet, will make one act fast and tough - so the bullying can be seen without any long lead time (unlike with Plu). Take Trump for e.g., he has Mars on his Asc. and acts feisty and fast. Ura on his Sun makes him very erratic marching to his own bloody beat not caring for any structures or norms.

You might not be using the Pluto energy to bully, but perhaps, and no offence intended here, the stubbornness or obsessive attitude can lead towards bullying, if not checked.

Also, sometimes, actually most of the times, we perceive ourselves in a different light than how others perceive us.
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
In the ancient Greek religion, Pluto was one of the 3 gods with "Earthly Authority", bestowed upon them by Gaea, the goddess who personified the Earth. Zeus was sky-god, Poseidon, sea-god, and Pluto ruled anything below the Earth's crust.

Both Poseidon/Neptune and Pluto were of the deep realms, and I see their influence as being deep psychologically-speaking. They aren't focused on the material world, like Zeus/Jupiter and Cronos/Saturn.

Pluto is about the Soul, and its journey after death, aided by Hermes/Mercury. Transformations are ruled by Plu.

I bring the ancient religious pantheons, mostly Sumerian, Egyptian, and Greco-Roman, into my interpretation of rulership characteristics, with a focus on Greco-Roman. I realize that not everyone does, but it helps me with my readings. As waybread often says, "It works for me.". :biggrin:
Yeah, perhaps it doesn't work for me.

Neptune is no innocent lamb either in my eyes. It could do away with boundaries, but on the down side, it can make one lose the ground from under one's feet and simply build castles in the air. Two sides to every coin.

Even Jup's exaggeration - can make one overdo things. Nothing is only good.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
Well, we are not reading your personal chart here, so what I was saying was in a more generic sense. The point I was trying to make is that Pluto can impart certain tendencies that can be the source of underlying currents to bullying. Mars, on the other hand, being a personal planet, will make one act fast and tough - so the bullying can be seen without any long lead time (as with Plu). Take Trump for e.g., he has Mars on his Asc. and acts feisty and fast. Ura on his Sun makes him very erratic marching to his own bloody beat not caring for any structures or norms.

You might not be using the Pluto energy to bully, but perhaps, and no offence intended here, the stubbornness or obsessive attitude can lead towards bullying, if not checked.

Also, sometimes, actually most of the times, we perceive ourselves in a different light than others perceive us.

My tendency to want to possess men was brought to my attention by a psychic. And he is right. Although i see it more as wanting to have a deep committed connection where we are both only interested in each other. And i like being clingy and smothering. If i cross the line with obsessiveness i eventually find out about it either through the other person or a friend and ill back of. So i make the choice to back off.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
Yeah, perhaps it doesn't work for me.

Neptune is no innocent lamb either in my eyes. It could do away with boundaries, but on the down side, it can make one lose the ground from under one's feet and simply build castles in the air. Two sides to every coin.

Even Jup's exaggeration - can make one overdo things. Nothing is only good.

I agree with this.

Im going to use my MIL's chart again as an example. Her chart clearly shows that men (mars and sun in pisces) are absolutely thrilled and allured by her charms (she is venus in pisces). She puts on the fake charm as an act whenever she wants a man to do something that will harm a woman in a hidden way so that the men dont realise they're harming at all. She also plays the victim to get what she wants from men which is a classic piscean and 12th house and neptune trait. When it comes to women she's the exact opposite. She's the meanest cruelest person to women i've ever seen - once again, with the help of the men in her life. In no way will she directly harm ppl which is a mars energy. She finds hidden and even energetic ways to hypnotize situations in her favour. I guess this is what happens when a female is raised to believe that in order to get anywhere in life, one must win the man over and attack the competition of other females out there. This is why i love god so much. An abuser cant fool god. She cant win god over with her charms. He sees what she is doing. And everytime i have prayed to god to punish those who have harmed me my prayers have come true.
 
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Opal

Premium Member
I am not a bully. I am very directed, in what I do. I am not very fearful of much. If I believe myself correct, I stand my ground.

Pluto is conjunct my MC. Scorpio ascending. Mars detrimental in Cancer, sextile Pluto.

It been a barrel of laughs!
 

Abby83

Well-known member
I am not a bully. I am very directed, in what I do. I am not very fearful of much. If I believe myself correct, I stand my ground.

Pluto is conjunct my MC. Scorpio ascending. Mars detrimental in Cancer, sextile Pluto.

It been a barrel of laughs!

FYI standing your ground doesnt work with abusers, if by standing your ground you mean standing up to them.
 

Domna

Well-known member
FYI standing your ground doesnt work with abusers, if by standing your ground you mean standing up to them.

In my experience that is not always the case. In at least a few cases I've stopped verbal abuse by not backing down from my abuser, either by treating their abuse as a joke and turning the laugh on them or by having a good enough comeback that they were silenced. A lot of the time the bully wants to feel powerful, as if they have power over you... If you don't give them any power that alone can put a stop to the bullying.

I can also remember one instance of physical abuse that I managed to stop by taking a stand. A gang of bullies wanted to intimidate and hurt me by throwing tennis balls really hard at me. When instead of cowering I actually caught the balls, that seemed to snap them out of the mindset of bullying. I guess it wasn't fun if I wasn't scared.

Now, abuse is never the victim's fault, let me make that clear. But in certain circumstances there are things you can do to make yourself less of a victim.
 

Opal

Premium Member
FYI standing your ground doesnt work with abusers, if by standing your ground you mean standing up to them.

FYI, I was bullied quite a bit in my youth. My parents moved once or twice a year. I went to 12 grades and 13 schools. Being the new kid, you are susceptible to bullying by the homey’s. What worked in my favour, was being good at school, and excelling in sports. I am very experienced in being bullied.

I agree with Domna, sometimes you can change from being abused. There are those that can’t, sadly, for them I wish them interior strength to get over the abuses they suffered or suffer. Sometimes getting away from the abuser(s) work. But, some become eternal victims. Victimized and proving that they are victims forever. A lot of them victimize others, and blame it on their victim. They don’t see that they perpetuate the situation.
 
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